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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'd be happy to play against an Imperial Knights (or Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum or some other Imperial factions) and let the player swap IMPERIUM to CHAOS. Probably without using any sub-faction stratagems, special rules, etc, and I'd be more likely to let them do it if they'd modelled the army suitably.

That would make even even bigger Soup if you can somehow merge Imperium and Chaos together. I would just say no to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

I just used that as an example. renegade knights are not the same army as imperial knights, their wargear options are differant, etc. I mean, let's turn this on a head... should chaos space marines be able to pick and choose from their stuff and the loyalist stuff depending on what they like?

I don't see why not, the CSM started out as loyalists I don't understand why, for example, they don't have access to Drop Pods, Centurions or Razorbacks in their codex.

They lose their wargears because they cannot maintain these. Also, advanced weapons are fought over constantly, which more than often ruin them. A Centurion suit would have at least 10 contenders and by the time one emerges victorious, the suit is beyond repair.

Chaos makes up for their barren technology with Daemon Engines. And let's just stay that way.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm all for bending/fixing rules (hell, the version of 40K I play would be unrecognizable to most Dakka members), but for me it'd be simple.

A) If you run a bunch of spiky Knights equipped with wargear allowed in the Imperial Knight codex and you're simply running Imperial Knights but saying they're Chaos for a campaign/scenario, etc. Cool as tits. If I'm playing against your codex army I don't mind how spiky or Chaos-like your models are.

B) If you're running Imperial Knights codex but changing the keywords to <CHAOS> and allying them with Chaos units, models, and codices...probably no dice. You have Renegade Knight rules in existence for a reason.

Agreed on all points

bibotot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'd be happy to play against an Imperial Knights (or Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum or some other Imperial factions) and let the player swap IMPERIUM to CHAOS. Probably without using any sub-faction stratagems, special rules, etc, and I'd be more likely to let them do it if they'd modelled the army suitably.

That would make even even bigger Soup if you can somehow merge Imperium and Chaos together. I would just say no to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

I just used that as an example. renegade knights are not the same army as imperial knights, their wargear options are differant, etc. I mean, let's turn this on a head... should chaos space marines be able to pick and choose from their stuff and the loyalist stuff depending on what they like?

I don't see why not, the CSM started out as loyalists I don't understand why, for example, they don't have access to Drop Pods, Centurions or Razorbacks in their codex.

They lose their wargears because they cannot maintain these. Also, advanced weapons are fought over constantly, which more than often ruin them. A Centurion suit would have at least 10 contenders and by the time one emerges victorious, the suit is beyond repair.

Chaos makes up for their barren technology with Daemon Engines. And let's just stay that way.

But Chaos isn't so uptight about technology. They INNOVATE.

 JNAProductions wrote:

bibotot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'd be happy to play against an Imperial Knights (or Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum or some other Imperial factions) and let the player swap IMPERIUM to CHAOS. Probably without using any sub-faction stratagems, special rules, etc, and I'd be more likely to let them do it if they'd modelled the army suitably.

That would make even even bigger Soup if you can somehow merge Imperium and Chaos together. I would just say no to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

I just used that as an example. renegade knights are not the same army as imperial knights, their wargear options are differant, etc. I mean, let's turn this on a head... should chaos space marines be able to pick and choose from their stuff and the loyalist stuff depending on what they like?

I don't see why not, the CSM started out as loyalists I don't understand why, for example, they don't have access to Drop Pods, Centurions or Razorbacks in their codex.

They lose their wargears because they cannot maintain these. Also, advanced weapons are fought over constantly, which more than often ruin them. A Centurion suit would have at least 10 contenders and by the time one emerges victorious, the suit is beyond repair.

Chaos makes up for their barren technology with Daemon Engines. And let's just stay that way.

But Chaos isn't so uptight about technology. They INNOVATE.

The real problem is GW's fluff, stretching all the way back to the boxed game, Space Marine - where they used the same exact models on both sides. What they probably should have done is made a hard line in the sand. When Chaos marines turn, have them mutate or otherwise discard everything Imperium. No crossover units, period. "Regular" marines becoming specifically aligned to Chaos, like Rubrics, Plague Marines, Noise Marines or Beserkers - no entry for "generic CSM". Terminators evolving into Mutilators or Obliterators - no "generic Chaos Terminator" . Predators mishapen into Reavers. Have Rhinos and Land Raiders molt into something with scuttling legs and chaos belching weapons. We sort of see it with the Death Guard, but they haven't quite dropped the old Imperium-marine-but-spikey entries just yet.

But, GW didn't do that, and there's no background reason why Chaos marines shouldn't have full access to the entire Astares list of gear and training - because you could explain it that this is day one of your Chaos Marine's fall to the dark side.

Dudeface wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'm all for bending/fixing rules (hell, the version of 40K I play would be unrecognizable to most Dakka members), but for me it'd be simple.

A) If you run a bunch of spiky Knights equipped with wargear allowed in the Imperial Knight codex and you're simply running Imperial Knights but saying they're Chaos for a campaign/scenario, etc. Cool as tits. If I'm playing against your codex army I don't mind how spiky or Chaos-like your models are.

B) If you're running Imperial Knights codex but changing the keywords to <CHAOS> and allying them with Chaos units, models, and codices...probably no dice. You have Renegade Knight rules in existence for a reason.

The real irony with option B is that's likely a less advantageous combo than imperial knight with imperial allies.

Hehe yeah. He could just as well count as his chaos marines as BA and cultist as IG CP battery and have more powerful army. So I'm all in for chaos proper using imperial knight codex if for nothing else than to get to face imperial knights WITHOUT CP battery and slamquinus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:


The real problem is GW's fluff, stretching all the way back to the boxed game, Space Marine - where they used the same exact models on both sides. What they probably should have done is made a hard line in the sand. When Chaos marines turn, have them mutate or otherwise discard everything Imperium. No crossover units, period. "Regular" marines becoming specifically aligned to Chaos, like Rubrics, Plague Marines, Noise Marines or Beserkers - no entry for "generic CSM". Terminators evolving into Mutilators or Obliterators - no "generic Chaos Terminator" . Predators mishapen into Reavers. Have Rhinos and Land Raiders molt into something with scuttling legs and chaos belching weapons. We sort of see it with the Death Guard, but they haven't quite dropped the old Imperium-marine-but-spikey entries just yet.

But, GW didn't do that, and there's no background reason why Chaos marines shouldn't have full access to the entire Astares list of gear and training - because you could explain it that this is day one of your Chaos Marine's fall to the dark side.

Thing is there's no fluff reason for what you described they should have done. "Oh I'm going to renegade. Let's just abandon all the gear we used to have!"

 JNAProductions wrote:

bibotot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'd be happy to play against an Imperial Knights (or Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum or some other Imperial factions) and let the player swap IMPERIUM to CHAOS. Probably without using any sub-faction stratagems, special rules, etc, and I'd be more likely to let them do it if they'd modelled the army suitably.

That would make even even bigger Soup if you can somehow merge Imperium and Chaos together. I would just say no to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

I just used that as an example. renegade knights are not the same army as imperial knights, their wargear options are differant, etc. I mean, let's turn this on a head... should chaos space marines be able to pick and choose from their stuff and the loyalist stuff depending on what they like?

I don't see why not, the CSM started out as loyalists I don't understand why, for example, they don't have access to Drop Pods, Centurions or Razorbacks in their codex.

They lose their wargears because they cannot maintain these. Also, advanced weapons are fought over constantly, which more than often ruin them. A Centurion suit would have at least 10 contenders and by the time one emerges victorious, the suit is beyond repair.

Chaos makes up for their barren technology with Daemon Engines. And let's just stay that way.

But Chaos isn't so uptight about technology. They INNOVATE.

They INNOVATE by using daemonic powers. Who needs an ugly, slow Centurion suit which also doubles as your coffin in an assault when you can grow 3 extra arms, have skin as tough as diamond and run as fast as an aircraft (obviously, the fluff doesn't translate well to Possessed Marines on the tabletop)? Now, a Possessed Marine will lose to a Centurion, but it's better to have 10 Marines possessed than to have all of them killing each other to see who gets the Centurion suit.

basicly chaos' idea of innovation is "so we stuck a deamon in it!"

bibotot wrote:
They INNOVATE by using daemonic powers. Who needs an ugly, slow Centurion suit which also doubles as your coffin in an assault when you can grow 3 extra arms, have skin as tough as diamond and run as fast as an aircraft (obviously, the fluff doesn't translate well to Possessed Marines on the tabletop)? Now, a Possessed Marine will lose to a Centurion, but it's better to have 10 Marines possessed than to have all of them killing each other to see who gets the Centurion suit.

You forgot about dark mechanicum? You know the guys producing wargear and who possess knowledge on how to build stuff that was known already during horus heresy.

tneva82 wrote:

bibotot wrote:
They INNOVATE by using daemonic powers. Who needs an ugly, slow Centurion suit which also doubles as your coffin in an assault when you can grow 3 extra arms, have skin as tough as diamond and run as fast as an aircraft (obviously, the fluff doesn't translate well to Possessed Marines on the tabletop)? Now, a Possessed Marine will lose to a Centurion, but it's better to have 10 Marines possessed than to have all of them killing each other to see who gets the Centurion suit.

You forgot about dark mechanicum? You know the guys producing wargear and who possess knowledge on how to build stuff that was known already during horus heresy.

no, but the vast overwhelming evidance is that the vast majority of the dark mechanium's innovation involves futzing about with chaos

tneva82 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'm all for bending/fixing rules (hell, the version of 40K I play would be unrecognizable to most Dakka members), but for me it'd be simple.

A) If you run a bunch of spiky Knights equipped with wargear allowed in the Imperial Knight codex and you're simply running Imperial Knights but saying they're Chaos for a campaign/scenario, etc. Cool as tits. If I'm playing against your codex army I don't mind how spiky or Chaos-like your models are.

B) If you're running Imperial Knights codex but changing the keywords to <CHAOS> and allying them with Chaos units, models, and codices...probably no dice. You have Renegade Knight rules in existence for a reason.

The real irony with option B is that's likely a less advantageous combo than imperial knight with imperial allies.

Hehe yeah. He could just as well count as his chaos marines as BA and cultist as IG CP battery and have more powerful army. So I'm all in for chaos proper using imperial knight codex if for nothing else than to get to face imperial knights WITHOUT CP battery and slamquinus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:


The real problem is GW's fluff, stretching all the way back to the boxed game, Space Marine - where they used the same exact models on both sides. What they probably should have done is made a hard line in the sand. When Chaos marines turn, have them mutate or otherwise discard everything Imperium. No crossover units, period. "Regular" marines becoming specifically aligned to Chaos, like Rubrics, Plague Marines, Noise Marines or Beserkers - no entry for "generic CSM". Terminators evolving into Mutilators or Obliterators - no "generic Chaos Terminator" . Predators mishapen into Reavers. Have Rhinos and Land Raiders molt into something with scuttling legs and chaos belching weapons. We sort of see it with the Death Guard, but they haven't quite dropped the old Imperium-marine-but-spikey entries just yet.

But, GW didn't do that, and there's no background reason why Chaos marines shouldn't have full access to the entire Astares list of gear and training - because you could explain it that this is day one of your Chaos Marine's fall to the dark side.

Thing is there's no fluff reason for what you described they should have done. "Oh I'm going to renegade. Let's just abandon all the gear we used to have!"

So with everybody complaining about soups ruining 40k, you want even more soups out there? We are not ready for that kind of stuff yet. GW must come up with rules to balance the soups before inventing new rules which would permit more of them.

No fluff for Chaos abandoning Imperial gears is like no fluff stating stating a Space Marine would, on average, lose to a shootout against 3 Guardsmen. Most Chaos Space Marines are never Loyalists to begin with. Very few a true veterans of the Long War. Most of them are recruited along the way. Check out the short story Thy Master, the Story if you want.

bibotot wrote:
So with everybody complaining about soups ruining 40k, you want even more soups out there? We are not ready for that kind of stuff yet. GW must come up with rules to balance the soups before inventing new rules which would permit more of them.

If somebody asks me if I mind him doing this I will say no. I sure prefer that than him using same models to play knight+BA+IG! What the knights codex in chaos list would do that's worse than knight+BA+IG combo? Please tell me. Not holding my breath while waiting for somebody to show how it's worse to have chaos keyword added rather than knight+IG+BA trio coming against once more.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But Chaos isn't so uptight about technology. They INNOVATE.

They have plenty of innovations in their codices: Plaguebust crawlers, defilers, bloat-drones, blight haulers, heldrakes, forgefiends, maulerfiends and the Lord of Skulls have all been invented by the chaos legions after they have split off from the Imperium.

Also, having access to a technology for both the Imperium and Chaos relies heavily relies on possessing the right STCs. If chaos doesn't have the template for razorbacks, they can't produce any.

Last, it is very likely that the whole "who get's what" is not lore-driven at all. Death Guard lore clearly states that almost all their vehicles have been captured from loyalists after their crew has become a molten puddle. For some reason though, they never mange to capture vindicators, just predators, land raiders and rhinos. The most simple explanation is that this done to make the factions more distinct. If chaos were everything the loyalist have plus daemons, why ever play loyalists? We already have marines+1 (BA, DA, SW), no need for marines+2.

bibotot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I'd be happy to play against an Imperial Knights (or Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum or some other Imperial factions) and let the player swap IMPERIUM to CHAOS. Probably without using any sub-faction stratagems, special rules, etc, and I'd be more likely to let them do it if they'd modelled the army suitably.

That would make even even bigger Soup if you can somehow merge Imperium and Chaos together.

"Soup" is only a problem because it gives some players greater choice and a greater likelihood of an unforeseen exploit than others in Matched Play. In Narrative, having Imperial Knights alongside cultists, Astra Militarum with stars painted on and some Chaos Marines makes perfect sense to me, so it's fine.

I'd be fine with it and would like to do it myself. For those saying that the Renegade mini-dex is there for a reason...that reason isn't to provide a balanced game, it's to get more sales because they had no qualms about giving renegade owners nothing until we made enough of a stink about it.

The mini-dex does have A good strategem that helps, and I'd have no problem with abiding the no twin gear rule that many here have proposed (i run thermal+gat anyways) to trade that in for the pages of imperial options.

Saying that Chaos deserve to have only 2 stratagems total is like saying that space wolves deserved to not have a codex at all and the game was justified to keep them at index level while fighting eldar soup in tournaments.

/Rant

People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

 Jidmah wrote:
People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

And that's more broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights...how?

I have asked that repeatedly yet nobody has been able to provide single example how above trio is preferable combo to face(which chaos players could easily do with their models...)

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

And that's more broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights...how?

I have asked that repeatedly yet nobody has been able to provide single example how above trio is preferable combo to face(which chaos players could easily do with their models...)

it's not relevant, some people actually prefer that people follow the rules

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

And that's more broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights...how?

I have asked that repeatedly yet nobody has been able to provide single example how above trio is preferable combo to face(which chaos players could easily do with their models...)

It doesn't need to be more broken. Just broken is bad enough. The list managed to place in the top 10 of NOVA, it's not going to suck if you add one of the most powerful models in the game to it, CP farm or not.

Otherwise you should be fine playing against my orks which are all BS2+ and 3+ armor now. Because "It's still less broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights".

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

And that's more broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights...how?

I have asked that repeatedly yet nobody has been able to provide single example how above trio is preferable combo to face(which chaos players could easily do with their models...)

it's not relevant, some people actually prefer that people follow the rules

You know right that rules are just framework for players? It's not like he is trying to cheat by doing this without asking.

Sheesh. GW never intended 40k to be played with only 1 official way yet people don't seem to realize you can do something, shock horror, TALK WITH OPPONENTS! What a novel concept. Why people play social game if they have such a hard time talking with opponents I don't understand.

But ok have fun facing chaos blood angels, CP battery and castellan

nope. they selected the bad side then they gotta stick whit it.
want the fun toys, join the emperor!

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

And that's more broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights...how?

I have asked that repeatedly yet nobody has been able to provide single example how above trio is preferable combo to face(which chaos players could easily do with their models...)

it's not relevant, some people actually prefer that people follow the rules

You know right that rules are just framework for players? It's not like he is trying to cheat by doing this without asking.

Sheesh. GW never intended 40k to be played with only 1 official way yet people don't seem to realize you can do something, shock horror, TALK WITH OPPONENTS! What a novel concept. Why people play social game if they have such a hard time talking with opponents I don't understand.

But ok have fun facing chaos blood angels, CP battery and castellan

yeah I'm well aware of it, on the other hand the person asked "would you be fine with X" and I responded with "sure if you proxy but no mix and matching codices" as did many other people, which is a pretty reasonable thing IMHO.

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People don't care about spiky knights with imperial rules.

People care about spikey knights with imperial rules running supported by TS supreme command deatchments and Mortarion.

And that's more broken than slamquinus+CP battery+knights...how?

I have asked that repeatedly yet nobody has been able to provide single example how above trio is preferable combo to face(which chaos players could easily do with their models...)

it's not relevant, some people actually prefer that people follow the rules

That is following the rules. Just because you don't want to play Open Play isn't tneva82's fault.

As many above, I'm ok as long as you don't:

A) use other Chaos synergies
B) don't use the special double loadout of Renegade.... then I'm fine.

Imagine if you use a Pseudo-Raven Crusader with double Cannon and Stormspear, rerolling all "1" for a single CP... that will not be fair. ^^
(And I am Knight player too, and I seat Imperial and Renegade quite often).