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I see both sides of the argument. I like the degrading, but I think it's too harsh. Take a SM Rhino for example. It doesn't have any guns of note. It's main function is to move troops faster. It takes 5 wounds and now it's the same speed as the unit inside. So, essentially they get a transport of 5 wounds and at it's current price point your better taking a second unit instead of its transport. But on the flip side, I don't want 1 wound Hive Tyrants flying around molesting everything. But yet again, on Knights we need them to degrade to balance them with smaller units. The 100/50/25 scale should be adjusted based on starting wounds.

Example:
Rhino - 10/3/1
HT - 12/4/2
IK - 24/12/6

Or maybe even just a 100%/50% scale for smaller vehicles?

 deviantduck wrote:
Or maybe even just a 100%/50% scale for smaller vehicles?

I actually like this idea. Right now anything with 10+ wounds has a 3 level degrading scale, but maybe things with 10-15 wounds should only have 2 levels

-

The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

 Yarium wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I do miss that low strength weapons not being able to damage high toughness/AV model. A las gun shouldn't be able to hurt a landraider.

I get this sentiment, but I prefer things that need to roll to wound or not, even if it's a low chance. What's more fun? Rolling 20 dice and hoping for that low chance of wounding, or rolling nothing because nothing happens? While the second one may be "more accurate", the first is "more fun", because it lets the players do something, even if that something isn't very useful. It makes people be active in the game. I love the Murder Sword, but it's very anti-climactic when you get it to the targeted character, as it's straight hits=mortal wounds. That's crazy, since Chaos Lord that's likely wielding this is hitting on 2+ rerollable anyways. It's still okay, because it's still possible to flub, but it's not nearly as interesting or fun as attacking with a Power Fist. The Power Fist is much worse most of the time, but it's also more fun most of the time too.

As mentioned before, while rolling 100 lasguns once is fun, having to roll 100 lasguns multiple times over multiple shooting phases just hoping for 3 or 5 sixes is just a waste of time that gums up the game's speed without adding much "fun" at all to the game. While also feeling fairly silly that a bunch of lost strength weapons can somehow injure something with over twice the toughness. Plus with split fire it's not like you even need to target guns that won't wound on the things the lascannon team in your squad is shooting at.

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

Nah, let's have vehicles be able to be killed in a single shot like the previous 5 editions of the game. That'll make them better. /s

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

 Yarium wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I do miss that low strength weapons not being able to damage high toughness/AV model. A las gun shouldn't be able to hurt a landraider.

I get this sentiment, but I prefer things that need to roll to wound or not, even if it's a low chance. What's more fun? Rolling 20 dice and hoping for that low chance of wounding, or rolling nothing because nothing happens? While the second one may be "more accurate", the first is "more fun", because it lets the players do something, even if that something isn't very useful. It makes people be active in the game. I love the Murder Sword, but it's very anti-climactic when you get it to the targeted character, as it's straight hits=mortal wounds. That's crazy, since Chaos Lord that's likely wielding this is hitting on 2+ rerollable anyways. It's still okay, because it's still possible to flub, but it's not nearly as interesting or fun as attacking with a Power Fist. The Power Fist is much worse most of the time, but it's also more fun most of the time too.

As mentioned before, while rolling 100 lasguns once is fun, having to roll 100 lasguns multiple times over multiple shooting phases just hoping for 3 or 5 sixes is just a waste of time that gums up the game's speed without adding much "fun" at all to the game. While also feeling fairly silly that a bunch of lost strength weapons can somehow injure something with over twice the toughness. Plus with split fire it's not like you even need to target guns that won't wound on the things the lascannon team in your squad is shooting at.

IK's may be broken but not every vehicle, they'll always be broken units in the game. Vehicles are not OP, they are just how they should be power-wise, vehicles used to be a joke, 4 HP for a land raider. They were like paper in 7th. but you pay gak loads for vehicles, they are supposed to hit hard. You collect DA's, you have plenty of stuff that can counter them, get a falchion and then you'll be laughing at IK's power.

Well, if you want a Tac squad with a Melta Gun to actually be a threat, maybe a chance of oneshottting vehicles isn't the worst thing for the game...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

Nah, let's have vehicles be able to be killed in a single shot like the previous 5 editions of the game. That'll make them better. /s

Depends on the vehicle. The big ones should be less durable than they currently are though as I mentioned in prior threads - infantry needs more firepower to realistically counter heavy armor while in turn not being terribly effective against infantry to prevent blobs of infantry becoming OP in turn. But we definitely don't want Knights stomping around with their base profile never being effected until they die.

 Stux wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

I'm sorry, but that's a very silly argument.

I mean, I can't tell you what you can or can't find fun of course. But this basically never happens. Of all the things to be annoyed about in 40k, this would be bottom of the list.

In fact, I see it as a feature. No matter what your opponent brings, victory is never truly impossible.

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

 Yarium wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I do miss that low strength weapons not being able to damage high toughness/AV model. A las gun shouldn't be able to hurt a landraider.

I get this sentiment, but I prefer things that need to roll to wound or not, even if it's a low chance. What's more fun? Rolling 20 dice and hoping for that low chance of wounding, or rolling nothing because nothing happens? While the second one may be "more accurate", the first is "more fun", because it lets the players do something, even if that something isn't very useful. It makes people be active in the game. I love the Murder Sword, but it's very anti-climactic when you get it to the targeted character, as it's straight hits=mortal wounds. That's crazy, since Chaos Lord that's likely wielding this is hitting on 2+ rerollable anyways. It's still okay, because it's still possible to flub, but it's not nearly as interesting or fun as attacking with a Power Fist. The Power Fist is much worse most of the time, but it's also more fun most of the time too.

As mentioned before, while rolling 100 lasguns once is fun, having to roll 100 lasguns multiple times over multiple shooting phases just hoping for 3 or 5 sixes is just a waste of time that gums up the game's speed without adding much "fun" at all to the game. While also feeling fairly silly that a bunch of lost strength weapons can somehow injure something with over twice the toughness. Plus with split fire it's not like you even need to target guns that won't wound on the things the lascannon team in your squad is shooting at.

IK's may be broken but not every vehicle, they'll always be broken units. but you pay gak loads for vehicles, they are supposed to hit hard. You collect DA's, you have plenty of stuff that can counter them, get a falchion and then you'll be laughing at IK's power.

lolwut? Dark Angels are a Space Marine army. Like all Space Marine armies they are complete pieces of gak that get outshot by guardsmen and annihilated by Imperial Knights. Bringing a Falchion to fight Knights is a terrible idea. Your Falchion might kill 1 Knight, and that's if you only get the initiative. What happens more often is that the Imperial Knights/guard battery puts out so many shots that the Falchion is outright erased and all you have left to shoot at the knights is devastators/ravenwing/hellblasters. Which are decent but aren't going to stand up to knights. That and it involves buying an excessively overpriced Falchion. If prices were cheaper I might buy a Knight Atrapos as an ally, but at that point you're just fighting fire with fire.

But if you want things to counter knights, Space Marines are probably the worst army you could pick unless those marines are in fact Death Guard.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

Nah, let's have vehicles be able to be killed in a single shot like the previous 5 editions of the game. That'll make them better. /s

Depends on the vehicle. The big ones should be less durable than they currently are though as I mentioned in prior threads - infantry needs more firepower to realistically counter heavy armor while in turn not being terribly effective against infantry to prevent blobs of infantry becoming OP in turn. But we definitely don't want Knights stomping around with their base profile never being effected until they die.

 Stux wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

I'm sorry, but that's a very silly argument.

I mean, I can't tell you what you can or can't find fun of course. But this basically never happens. Of all the things to be annoyed about in 40k, this would be bottom of the list.

In fact, I see it as a feature. No matter what your opponent brings, victory is never truly impossible.

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

Vehicles are supposed to be over-powered and infantry are supposed to have a problem taking them down. Just fight vehicle with vehicle, you are acting like your army has none.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

Nah, let's have vehicles be able to be killed in a single shot like the previous 5 editions of the game. That'll make them better. /s

Depends on the vehicle. The big ones should be less durable than they currently are though as I mentioned in prior threads - infantry needs more firepower to realistically counter heavy armor while in turn not being terribly effective against infantry to prevent blobs of infantry becoming OP in turn. But we definitely don't want Knights stomping around with their base profile never being effected until they die.

 Stux wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

I'm sorry, but that's a very silly argument.

I mean, I can't tell you what you can or can't find fun of course. But this basically never happens. Of all the things to be annoyed about in 40k, this would be bottom of the list.

In fact, I see it as a feature. No matter what your opponent brings, victory is never truly impossible.

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

Vehicles are supposed to be over-powered and infantry are supposed to have a problem taking them down. Just fight vehicle with vehicle, you are acting like your army has none.

Vehicles aren't OP because nothing is "OP" in warfare save maybe nuclear artillery. Everything is countered by everything and a single squad of space marine devastators or a couple squads of guardsmen packing lascannons should pose a very real, credible, and lethal threat to any vehicle in the game short of having void shields. Vehicles do not and are not supposed to counter infantry, vehicles provide fire support to infantry trying to kill other infantry. What should happen if you try to just rush a bunch of infantry in cover with tanks in 40k is that said tanks get blown up by dedicated AT weapons while the player scratches their head and wonders why their opponent thinks armor lacking proper support is a good idea.

And Space Marines don't have vehicles. The best vehicle space marines can get that isn't a relic or a lord of war is a predator FFS. Granted we don't have it as bad as Orks (have fun with that 5+ BS on everything) or Grey Knights, but Marine monocodex armies are hot garbage right now thanks to superheavies running around in mere 2000 and 1750 games.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

Nah, let's have vehicles be able to be killed in a single shot like the previous 5 editions of the game. That'll make them better. /s

Depends on the vehicle. The big ones should be less durable than they currently are though as I mentioned in prior threads - infantry needs more firepower to realistically counter heavy armor while in turn not being terribly effective against infantry to prevent blobs of infantry becoming OP in turn. But we definitely don't want Knights stomping around with their base profile never being effected until they die.

 Stux wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

I'm sorry, but that's a very silly argument.

I mean, I can't tell you what you can or can't find fun of course. But this basically never happens. Of all the things to be annoyed about in 40k, this would be bottom of the list.

In fact, I see it as a feature. No matter what your opponent brings, victory is never truly impossible.

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

Vehicles are supposed to be over-powered and infantry are supposed to have a problem taking them down. Just fight vehicle with vehicle, you are acting like your army has none.

Vehicles aren't OP because nothing is "OP" in warfare save maybe nuclear artillery. Everything is countered by everything and a single squad of space marine devastators or a couple squads of guardsmen packing lascannons should pose a very real, credible, and lethal threat to any vehicle in the game short of having void shields. Vehicles do not and are not supposed to counter infantry, vehicles provide fire support to infantry trying to kill other infantry. What should happen if you try to just rush a bunch of infantry in cover with tanks in 40k is that said tanks get blown up by dedicated AT weapons while the player scratches their head and wonders why their opponent thinks armor lacking proper support is a good idea.

That doesn't even make sense. OP is relative saying that the only thing that is OP is a nuclear bomb is they 'most' OP thing.. A squad of lascannons can one-shot a land raider if they are very lucky. I never said they are supposed to counter infantry, but they actually are, even in real life you have tanks that counter infantry. The only problem there is that vehicles should be able to be locked in combat and you should be able to use grenades in CC and everyone should be able to use grenades like in the beginning of 7th. Infantry need changed, vehicles don't.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

Wait - you’re complaining about a game rule kicking in using an example that would never actually happen on the gameboard?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The entire problem with 8th edition right now is that the things with degrading profiles are too OP for their points value and just their general use on the table becomes cancerous, especially Knights. You really want Imperial Knights, among the most broken things on the table right now, to not lose ballistic skill as they become damaged? That seems like a great way to make the game even more broken and inflate the number of people taking knights as allies to games.

Nah, let's have vehicles be able to be killed in a single shot like the previous 5 editions of the game. That'll make them better. /s

Depends on the vehicle. The big ones should be less durable than they currently are though as I mentioned in prior threads - infantry needs more firepower to realistically counter heavy armor while in turn not being terribly effective against infantry to prevent blobs of infantry becoming OP in turn. But we definitely don't want Knights stomping around with their base profile never being effected until they die.

 Stux wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

I'm sorry, but that's a very silly argument.

I mean, I can't tell you what you can or can't find fun of course. But this basically never happens. Of all the things to be annoyed about in 40k, this would be bottom of the list.

In fact, I see it as a feature. No matter what your opponent brings, victory is never truly impossible.

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

Vehicles are supposed to be over-powered and infantry are supposed to have a problem taking them down. Just fight vehicle with vehicle, you are acting like your army has none.

Vehicles aren't OP because nothing is "OP" in warfare save maybe nuclear artillery. Everything is countered by everything and a single squad of space marine devastators or a couple squads of guardsmen packing lascannons should pose a very real, credible, and lethal threat to any vehicle in the game short of having void shields. Vehicles do not and are not supposed to counter infantry, vehicles provide fire support to infantry trying to kill other infantry. What should happen if you try to just rush a bunch of infantry in cover with tanks in 40k is that said tanks get blown up by dedicated AT weapons while the player scratches their head and wonders why their opponent thinks armor lacking proper support is a good idea.

That doesn't even make sense. OP is relative saying that the only thing that is OP is a nuclear bomb is they 'most' OP thing.. A squad of lascannons can one-shot a land raider if they are very lucky. I never said they are supposed to counter infantry, but they actually are, even in real life you have tanks that counter infantry. The only problem there is that vehicles should be able to be locked in combat and you should be able to use grenades in CC and everyone should be able to use grenades like in the beginning of 7th. Infantry need changed, vehicles don't.

...and you also have infantry that counter tanks, which is why tanks were seldom unaccompanied by infantry of their own to cover any blind spots. Against small arms fire tanks were a problem, but most infantry units had some sort of anti-tank weapon ever since WW2. Even a bottle of petrol was enough to seriously damage a tank. I thought grenades still had a melee stat? EDIT : Huh, apparently not. Well that's dumb.

Of course, now that vision arcs are gone that covering blind-spots aspect is irrelevant. I liked that mechanic. I guess you could still use infantry to stop vehicles from getting charged or to stop meltas or whatever from getting in range.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Vehicles do not and are not supposed to counter infantry, vehicles provide fire support to infantry trying to kill other infantry.

How do you "provide fire support" without just killing the enemy infantry?

What should happen if you try to just rush a bunch of infantry in cover with tanks in 40k is that said tanks get blown up by dedicated AT weapons while the player scratches their head and wonders why their opponent thinks armor lacking proper support is a good idea.

Too bad that isn't possible in a game with effectively no LOS/cover mechanic, no hidden units that require scouting by screening forces, etc. 40k doesn't differentiate between unit types enough for any of this to matter, there simply isn't any concept of "support". All that matters is stacking up the most efficient dice regardless of platform and exchanging casualties until someone wins.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Actually it's happened a fair bit to me and it is pretty damn dumb and jarring for immersion. I recently charged so many poxwalkers (using tabletop simulator because there's no way I could get that many poxwalkers in reality) I killed an Imperial Knight in two rounds of melee with 3 squads of poxwalkers that had literally eaten the conscript blobs that were supposed to screen enemy fire (resulting in over 100 poxwalkers storming across the table in a glorious horde). It doesn't make a lick of sense that a bunch of zombies punching a mecha can in fact kill it.

Wait - you’re complaining about a game rule kicking in using an example that would never actually happen on the gameboard?

Only as far as I'd be willing to pay for, although it can happen using different units which would be less expensive to buy up. But just using poxwalkers in general would probably demand I buy some cheap zombie miniatures or just coins to represent the extra bodies if I ever make a Death Guard army. It's crazy how bloated poxwalker squads can become when they get to devour a bunch of guardsmen after advancing through cover (I had one squad pass the 50 mark as it reached one end of a gunline and kept munching). But any infantry that doesn't have excessively superhuman strength shouldn't be able to scratch a Leman Russ in melee. S5 at least.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Vehicles do not and are not supposed to counter infantry, vehicles provide fire support to infantry trying to kill other infantry.

How do you "provide fire support" without just killing the enemy infantry?

Suppressing the enemy unit (bring back pie plates and shaken dammit) or killing them, but not in a manner efficient enough that the driver would feel safe getting close without eating an armor-piercing rocket.

Too bad that isn't possible in a game with effectively no LOS/cover mechanic, no hidden units that require scouting by screening forces, etc. 40k doesn't differentiate between unit types enough for any of this to matter, there simply isn't any concept of "support". All that matters is stacking up the most efficient dice regardless of platform and exchanging casualties until someone wins.

Which is why 40k as it is right now is in a pretty gakky state, with GW once again fixing some issues only for even more to suddenly breakdown. Feels like an endless song and dance at this point.

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

It was also mathematically possible for the OP to complain about the new Necron Canoptek construct because of the max potential of its gun.

We use averages for a reason.

I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

It was also mathematically possible for the OP to complain about the new Necron Canoptek construct because of the max potential of its gun.

We use averages for a reason.

So do you calculate the averages for every weapon in the game. REMOVED BY BROOKM - RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL If you aren't going to factor in BS ect. then using the total is completely valid, because if its 26 possible wounds vs 26 possible wounds then all you have to do is compare the difference in BS, st and ap, which is a hell of a lot simpler and quicker than calculating the averages. It means you can just scan the weapon profiles.

NurglesR0T wrote:I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Natural 6s don't always wound.

Admittedly, the only -1 to wound I know of is on Harlequin Infantry, meaning you need a S1 weapon to fail to wound them every time. But hey.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

It was also mathematically possible for the OP to complain about the new Necron Canoptek construct because of the max potential of its gun.

We use averages for a reason.

So do you calculate the averages for every weapon in the game. REMOVED BY BROOKM - RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL If you aren't going to factor in BS ect. then using the total is completely valid, because if its 26 possible wounds vs 26 possible wounds then all you have to do is compare the difference in BS, st and ap, which is a hell of a lot simpler and quicker than calculating the averages. It means you can just scan the weapon profiles.

NurglesR0T wrote:I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Averages aren't hard to calculate, you know.

 JNAProductions wrote:

NurglesR0T wrote:I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Natural 6s don't always wound.

Admittedly, the only -1 to wound I know of is on Harlequin Infantry, meaning you need a S1 weapon to fail to wound them every time. But hey.

Ok... so outside of one unit that has an exception to the rule, a 6 will almost always wound

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

NurglesR0T wrote:I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Natural 6s don't always wound.

Admittedly, the only -1 to wound I know of is on Harlequin Infantry, meaning you need a S1 weapon to fail to wound them every time. But hey.

Ok... so outside of one unit that has an exception to the rule, a 6 will almost always wound

Are there even any S1 weapons? Because that's what you need to fail on a 6.

None that I'm aware of natively.

Would be nice to see in the next FAQ a simple line that a 1 is always a fail, and a 6 is always a pass

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think degrading profile should not affect BS.

I don't necessarily agree, but I do think it should be rethought a little. Something built for pure resilience shouldn't get impacted as harder by taking damage. Something like a Tyranid Exocrine however, that is basically just a living Cannon? makes perfect sense that the more damage it takes the worse it performs its role.

 JNAProductions wrote:

NurglesR0T wrote:I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Natural 6s don't always wound.

Admittedly, the only -1 to wound I know of is on Harlequin Infantry, meaning you need a S1 weapon to fail to wound them every time. But hey.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

It was also mathematically possible for the OP to complain about the new Necron Canoptek construct because of the max potential of its gun.

We use averages for a reason.

So do you calculate the averages for every weapon in the game. REMOVED BY BROOKM - RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL If you aren't going to factor in BS ect. then using the total is completely valid, because if its 26 possible wounds vs 26 possible wounds then all you have to do is compare the difference in BS, st and ap, which is a hell of a lot simpler and quicker than calculating the averages. It means you can just scan the weapon profiles.

NurglesR0T wrote:I like the damage tables, like others have mentioned it makes your shots at vehicles actually mean something as they degrade and helps distinguish them from infantry even though they share the same stat line.

Problem with BS on degradation is a mechanics issue, not a vehicle one. Make all natural 6's a hit (just like all natural 6's are wounds) and it will go a long way IMO

Averages aren't hard to calculate, you know.

Nerf Termagants, 6 of them will kill a Knight gallant every single turn, ridiculously OP





or how bout we stop using such an illogical measure. Anyone valueing a unit off potential max damage is handicapping themselves immensely as it's completely different from reality. This is like, definitively low level understanding, if you want to do it nobody can stop you, but stop using the stats in conversation and argument as if it means anything

 SHUPPET wrote:
Nerf Termagants, 6 of them will kill a Knight gallant every single turn, ridiculously OP





or how bout we stop using such an illogical measure. Anyone valueing a unit off potential max damage is handicapping themselves immensely as it's completely different from reality. This is like, definitively low level understanding, if you want to do it nobody can stop you, but stop using the stats in conversation and argument as if it means anything

I never said I was using statistics first of all and stop following me around, its already been said on the other thread.

Stop following you around? Lmao stop starting the same silly argument in multiple threads, I clicked on this thread to weigh in about vehicle damage as you'll see my first post in here was about, it's not my fault that you've turned it into another debate about how max potential damage is a valid indicator of competitive strength. Nobody is following you anywhere lol in fact if I'd had seen it was you who made this thread I probably wouldn't have clicked it, because really I should already know how it was going to go.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Stop following you around? Lmao stop starting the same silly argument in multiple threads, I clicked on this thread to weigh in about vehicle damage as you'll see my first post in here was about, it's not my fault that you've turned it into another debate about how max potential damage is a valid indicator of competitive strength. Nobody is following you anywhere lol in fact if I'd had seen it was you who made this thread I probably wouldn't have clicked it, because really I should already know how it was going to go.

I mean, if we're looking at max damage, Mortarion can do, in theory...

8 attacks turns into 24 swings
24 swings turns into 96 hits
Each hit does 4 damage plus a mortal wound

480 damage to a single Imperium model in a turn.

So, you know. Beat that.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Stop following you around? Lmao stop starting the same silly argument in multiple threads, I clicked on this thread to weigh in about vehicle damage as you'll see my first post in here was about, it's not my fault that you've turned it into another debate about how max potential damage is a valid indicator of competitive strength. Nobody is following you anywhere lol in fact if I'd had seen it was you who made this thread I probably wouldn't have clicked it, because really I should already know how it was going to go.

I mean, if we're looking at max damage, Mortarion can do, in theory...

8 attacks turns into 24 swings
24 swings turns into 96 hits
Each hit does 4 damage plus a mortal wound

480 damage to a single Imperium model in a turn.

So, you know. Beat that.

Well you know a single SM tac squad only cost 130 points and can do 34 wounds in one turn one shooting him

 mew28 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Stop following you around? Lmao stop starting the same silly argument in multiple threads, I clicked on this thread to weigh in about vehicle damage as you'll see my first post in here was about, it's not my fault that you've turned it into another debate about how max potential damage is a valid indicator of competitive strength. Nobody is following you anywhere lol in fact if I'd had seen it was you who made this thread I probably wouldn't have clicked it, because really I should already know how it was going to go.

I mean, if we're looking at max damage, Mortarion can do, in theory...

8 attacks turns into 24 swings
24 swings turns into 96 hits
Each hit does 4 damage plus a mortal wound

480 damage to a single Imperium model in a turn.

So, you know. Beat that.

Well you know a single SM tac squad only cost 130 points and can do 34 wounds in one turn one shooting him

Incoming Tac squad nerf - you heard it first here folks.

 Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

Well i have killed wraithkn:ght with consciipt overwatch which i# silly and illogical breaking suspension of disbelief big time