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Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I have two rhinos, termintors can't ride in rhinos.

Terminators have a 1+ save in cover. So does a Land Raider. BOTH are AWESOME with this.

That said, why are your Terminators on the board turn 1 and not deep striking?

Gunline players be all "omg sometimes combat units can do what you pay their points. to do! Unacceptable!"

Yet you don't complain when your shooty units do damage in shooting, because that's what they're supposed to do.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

GK before the nerf too sometimes charged out of deep strike, or at least tried.

Karol wrote:
Where there any nerfs done to shoting too? I havent read all the FAQs yet.

Shooting didn't need further nerfs. We've already had several with this edition removing templates and markers that made certain weapons worth taking (poor Vindicators and your useless gun for example) and with how the game relies on you needing to move to grab objectives the game punishes static play. That's not even getting into how you can still slingshot units into your enemy's lines turn 1 to disrupt gun lines.

Plus with AP changes most gunlines aren't as good at dealing with horde armies anyways meaning gunlines need to do more than just turtle up to win games.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Ah so to come up with something you had to repeat the same thing 5 times, then throw in raven guard which shoots, not combat, and a joke unit.
Thank you for illustrating how weak your argument is.

You simply dont like if any combat units can do any damage to your army and prefer to wipe the board with no resistance. So you think that's "balanced." And that its "unfair" if any combat unit can do anything to you.

Ok thanks. Maybe it is just me, but I though shoting was super powerful in 8th, and stuff like the BA captin or s spears were in lists as a bonus, a very nice one, but the heavy work still was done by stuff like reapers or castellans.

Karol wrote:
So that my NDK doesn't get shot dead turn 1 and I auto lose ? plus with the power points change, I have to have some termintors on the board. I can't just leave a draigo and NDK on the table behind a building, even If I wanted to.

I don't own a LR, and everyone has been telling me they are one of the worse units in the game when cost to efficiency goes. And considering people at my store generaly don't help new people with what is good and what is bad, and they still say that, they have to be really bad.

Land Raiders are more point efficient than Rhinos are (and can give GK some much needed lascannon support to help deal with enemy tanks). If you want to go all in on terminators then you need to be looking at doing more than just putting them on the board and crossing your fingers for the best.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

None of these 'did good' in the current meta.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Karol wrote:
Ok thanks. Maybe it is just me, but I though shoting was super powerful in 8th, and stuff like the BA captin or s spears were in lists as a bonus, a very nice one, but the heavy work still was done by stuff like reapers or castellans.

Technically Reapers were nerfed in FAQ 1 so that would mean shooting has received its nerf in some respect as has been mentioned.

 Stux wrote:
It's out! What are our thoughts?

My carefully considered opinion: It's still September. GG GW.

... Ok. I'm going to actually read it now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Danny slag wrote:
Gunline players be all "omg sometimes combat units can do what you pay their points. to do! Unacceptable!"

Yet you don't complain when your shooty units do damage in shooting, because that's what they're supposed to do.

Locking someone in their deployment zone isn't what they're "supposed to be doing" it's denying your opponent the ability to actually play the game. Likewise, the ability for smashcaptains to make 2-3" charges into things like Knights on a DS was silly. Glad they changed it.

And they left Reivers alone to continue making 2-3" charges after dropping in which means they didn't nerf a much weaker unit the same way.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
My carefully considered opinion: It's still September. GG GW.

Best comment so far!

SG

Danny slag wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Ah so to come up with something you had to repeat the same thing 5 times, then throw in raven guard which shoots, not combat, and a joke unit.
Thank you for illustrating how weak your argument is.

You simply dont like if any combat units can do any damage to your army and prefer to wipe the board with no resistance. So you think that's "balanced." And that its "unfair" if any combat unit can do anything to you.

You are playing a game. Any option that allows one player to prevent the other from actually playing it by pinning their army in the deployment zone on turn 1 isn't a good mechanic. It's a broken one. Get over it already.

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Karol wrote:
Ok thanks. Maybe it is just me, but I though shoting was super powerful in 8th, and stuff like the BA captin or s spears were in lists as a bonus, a very nice one, but the heavy work still was done by stuff like reapers or castellans.

Shooting is still strong, but it's not the static gunline king it was in something like 5th. Hordes are stronger than they used to be against shooting and mobility and board control are incredibly powerful things in the current edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

None of these 'did good' in the current meta.

Current meta is the result of them already being nerfed. They were incredibly good to the point of breaking the game which is why alpha striking was nerfed.

Danny slag wrote:

Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

You never faced 20 alphalegion berzerkers, 30bloodletter bomb, skarbrand and more in your face turn 1?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
So that my NDK doesn't get shot dead turn 1 and I auto lose ? plus with the power points change, I have to have some termintors on the board. I can't just leave a draigo and NDK on the table behind a building, even If I wanted to.

I don't own a LR, and everyone has been telling me they are one of the worse units in the game when cost to efficiency goes. And considering people at my store generaly don't help new people with what is good and what is bad, and they still say that, they have to be really bad.

Land Raiders are more point efficient than Rhinos are (and can give GK some much needed lascannon support to help deal with enemy tanks). If you want to go all in on terminators then you need to be looking at doing more than just putting them on the board and crossing your fingers for the best.

I don't have the money to buy one, and I would have to buy it from the store, as no one localy owns any. A friend just teased me with this, could even be funny possibly, am never good with the funny stuff.

> After 7e codex: "They're not too good now, maybe in a later FAQ they'll improve!"
> After later FAQ: "They didn't get better, but I'm sure they'll get better in 8th edition!"
> After 8e index: "They're awful now, but they'll get fixed in the FAQ!"
> After index FAQ: "They're still awful, but they'll be good when they get a codex!"
> After codex: "They're really bad, but they'll get fixed in their FAQ!"
> After codex FAQ: "They're awful. However, they'll get fixed for sure in Chapter Approved!"
> After Chapter Approved: "They just got worse. However, I'm sure they'll get better in the March FAQ!"
> After March FAQ: "They got worse again, and didn't even receive any specific fixes despite overwhelming feedback. Just wait until the September FAQ, they're sure to improve!"
> After September FAQ: "They didn't get any fixes at all despite heavy feedback? Just wait until CA, that's when they'll be fixed!"


Does anyone know how long does it take GW to write a book like CA, someone told me they are done with stuff 6 months in advance, whihc would mean the CA stuff is already done and just waiting to be printed. Maybe if enough people post on the GW facebook they will leak some GK stuff or something, so people don't feel bad about this update.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Ah so to come up with something you had to repeat the same thing 5 times, then throw in raven guard which shoots, not combat, and a joke unit.
Thank you for illustrating how weak your argument is.

You simply dont like if any combat units can do any damage to your army and prefer to wipe the board with no resistance. So you think that's "balanced." And that its "unfair" if any combat unit can do anything to you.

You are playing a game. Any option that allows one player to prevent the other from actually playing it by pinning their army in the deployment zone on turn 1 isn't a good mechanic. It's a broken one. Get over it already.

And that shows the asinine bias of your argument because you wouldn't say the same thing about shooting a unit. But doesn't shooting them dead also stop them from doing anything? Oh but that's different because that's what the armies you play do. An combat army being prevented from playing it is ok though right? So your entire argument still sums up in "units I don't use shouldn't be able to do anything to units I use."
You're dense.

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Tzaangor bomb was a powerful supplement to the smite spam army that was toned down by denying alpha strikes out of deep strike meaning that you can't throw most of your army into reserves to smash into the enemy lines the same way you used to.

You're ignoring that this change was done for good reason and using the fact that the reasons being mentioned aren't strong anymore as proof that the change wasn't needed despite the reason those builds aren't broken anymore being a result of said change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
So that my NDK doesn't get shot dead turn 1 and I auto lose ? plus with the power points change, I have to have some termintors on the board. I can't just leave a draigo and NDK on the table behind a building, even If I wanted to.

I don't own a LR, and everyone has been telling me they are one of the worse units in the game when cost to efficiency goes. And considering people at my store generaly don't help new people with what is good and what is bad, and they still say that, they have to be really bad.

Land Raiders are more point efficient than Rhinos are (and can give GK some much needed lascannon support to help deal with enemy tanks). If you want to go all in on terminators then you need to be looking at doing more than just putting them on the board and crossing your fingers for the best.

I don't have the money to buy one, and I would have to buy it from the store, as no one localy owns any. A friend just teased me with this, could even be funny possibly, am never good with the funny stuff.

> After 7e codex: "They're not too good now, maybe in a later FAQ they'll improve!"
> After later FAQ: "They didn't get better, but I'm sure they'll get better in 8th edition!"
> After 8e index: "They're awful now, but they'll get fixed in the FAQ!"
> After index FAQ: "They're still awful, but they'll be good when they get a codex!"
> After codex: "They're really bad, but they'll get fixed in their FAQ!"
> After codex FAQ: "They're awful. However, they'll get fixed for sure in Chapter Approved!"
> After Chapter Approved: "They just got worse. However, I'm sure they'll get better in the March FAQ!"
> After March FAQ: "They got worse again, and didn't even receive any specific fixes despite overwhelming feedback. Just wait until the September FAQ, they're sure to improve!"
> After September FAQ: "They didn't get any fixes at all despite heavy feedback? Just wait until CA, that's when they'll be fixed!"


Does anyone know how long does it take GW to write a book like CA, someone told me they are done with stuff 6 months in advance, whihc would mean the CA stuff is already done and just waiting to be printed. Maybe if enough people post on the GW facebook they will leak some GK stuff or something, so people don't feel bad about this update.

CA is out in December so it should be done being printed, or almost done being printed now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Dave1215 wrote:
I've seen so many innovative rule changes suggested here and other places among players that the new FAQ makes me very frustrated. At every turn GW seems to have taken the laziest, nerfiest solution possible. And to say Battle Brothers is working and everyone loves it makes me wretch.

Well the GT level tournie players are loving it. We need a buff for mono-faction armies though.

That is a pretty small group of highly biased players. It's also a very unique demographic - people who can afford to travel to play tournaments on a regular basis. These people have a highly vested interest in their stupid tournament net-listed armies remaining unchanged.

Mixed reaction to this from me. The CP farm changes might be enough, but I still think they need to look at soup in general. I think the Guard Battalion will still show up in every Imperial list for the +5 CP but we might now see some variety in relics/warlord traits. Changing how some of the strats work seems like a good idea to balance thinigs. I like half of the Fly nerf, making those 0" charges a thing of the past.

However, I think the Fly nerf went too far. Now cheap screening troops are even more valuable, making armies that don't have them even worse. A lot of tactics now simply don't work, which pushes the game down an even simpler path than it is right now. On top of that, we have GW declaring everyone loved their soup nerf, which shows they're either trolling us or don't understand their own game.

I think I'd like to see GW take a few more risks with their beta rules. At the moment they tend to be adopted immediately by tournaments because they're pretty safe changes overall. I think GW should be using these FAQs to make bigger changes but make it absolutely clear that noting is final yet and they will make changes if things prove too good/bad. Right now the beta rules never really feel like they won't be implemented with anything other than minor tweaks.

Danny slag wrote:
And that shows the asinine bias of your argument because you wouldn't say the same thing about shooting a unit. But doesn't shooting them dead also stop them from doing anything? Oh but that's different because that's what the armies you play do. Your entire argument still sums up in "units I don't use shouldn't be able to do anything to units I use."
You're dense.

I play an all mono-faction all Primaris Imperial Fists army. I can't gunline the way you claim if I wanted to and have to rely on controlling the board center to win games. But nice projection of how my army is the cancer of the game despite not being in the top 10 this entire edition.

The current meta is already a result of the builds we've mentioned being nerfed and the game is better for it. Your bias for melee only armies is basically insane if only for the fact that the game shouldn't allow one player to lock the other player completely out of every phase save for assualt on turn 1. Even if you want to argue that shooting is strong it doesn't prevent you from doing other things in the game and they even gave you a means on increasing the durability of your army against shooting on turn 1 (and making transports better since they'll weather shooting on turn 1 better).

Cheaper is even better now. All is right with 8th.

Karol wrote:

I have two rhinos, termintors can't ride in rhinos.

I mean give the rhinos 2+ saves.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Uh, no, not at all. Let's review the lists, shall we?

I have no idea why you decided to say "Top 30" except maybe because it helps you. Most places generally settle on top 10 and occasionally top 15. In order to include as many lists as possible, here's the top 16 (cause I found na extra):

1. Knights/CP Farm
2. Knights/CP Farm
3. Ynnari
4. Knights/CP Farm
5. Morty+Magnus Party
6. Knights/CP Farm
7. Custodes Mass Jetbikes
8. Dark Eldar
9. Blood Angels
10. Harlequinns
11. Knight/CP Farm
12. Custodes (Infantry of all things)
13. Knights/CP Farm
14. Tau
15. Adeptus Astartes
16. Daemons

So looking at this, the top lists aside from Knight/CP Farm are almost certainly Eldar of some sort or another. There were only two Chaos lists at all that could even TAKE Tzaangoer bombs. Cultist Spam, even with Abaddon, has like no presence at all. Honestly, your idea of the current meta just seems wildly off base or based on early 2018 as opposed to late 2018.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Dave1215 wrote:
I've seen so many innovative rule changes suggested here and other places among players that the new FAQ makes me very frustrated. At every turn GW seems to have taken the laziest, nerfiest solution possible. And to say Battle Brothers is working and everyone loves it makes me wretch.

Well the GT level tournie players are loving it. We need a buff for mono-faction armies though.

That is a pretty small group of highly biased players. It's also a very unique demographic - people who can afford to travel to play tournaments on a regular basis. These people have a highly vested interest in their stupid tournament net-listed armies remaining unchanged.

Hrm, while I'd agree that its a very small niche of players, these are the guys that generally also will hop from army to army or build entirely different lists as the meta changes also, I doubt any are super wedded to any particular build that wont last a year anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Dave1215 wrote:
I've seen so many innovative rule changes suggested here and other places among players that the new FAQ makes me very frustrated. At every turn GW seems to have taken the laziest, nerfiest solution possible. And to say Battle Brothers is working and everyone loves it makes me wretch.

Well the GT level tournie players are loving it. We need a buff for mono-faction armies though.

That is a pretty small group of highly biased players. It's also a very unique demographic - people who can afford to travel to play tournaments on a regular basis. These people have a highly vested interest in their stupid tournament net-listed armies remaining unchanged.

It's the most well documented and noticeable part of the hobby though too.