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**A.T.**

Well... next up chapter approved.

Good that it addressed a few issues. Not so good that it took so long for so little.

**Danny slag**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
A gunline that balls up around an aura and slowly walks forward a few inches is still a gunline.

By your definition any army that relies on shooting is a gunline regardless of how it actually plays. You're watering down a term to be next to meaningless just so you can claim to be right.

Funny then that you don't ever address any of my actual arguments about the balance and only argue semantics.

**ThePorcupine**

They just completely butchered the entire Harlequin army with the changes to "fly" and "flip belts." Without maneuverability, Harlequins are nothing.

**SHUPPET**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

So let's make combat armies auto lose because you play a gunline, sounds great.

I don't play a gunline. Lol. Because most are terrible right now.

Go play some Tau or something and come back, telling me how you did auto-winning against all those Genestealers, Daemons, etc.. out there

Tau is REALLY good against Genestealers dude.

Danny slag wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

And getting your entire army shot off the board before it has any chance to do any damage isn't fun either. But that half of the equation doesn't seem to ever come up. Because as I said they're ok discouraging combat armies.

I haven't seen many shooty armies do well recently, with the exception of the Castellan, which is (still) just broken.

Genestealers, Ynnari, Prophets of Flesh, Daemons, Bash-Brothers, Tzaangors, etc.. are pretty much all you see at top tables, if you subtract the IG/BA/Castellan lists.

Melee has an edge at moment and shooting (e.g. Tau, Necrons, Marines without Guilliman) definitely needs a boost. Just the reality of the game atm.

False. Tzaanagors are seen because they're cheap filler for a smite army, not because of close combat prowess. The only one that was at the top tables was imperial soup with smash captains, in every WAAC list. So they should fix the blood Angel's stratagems, not nerf all combat into uselessness because of blood angels. You seem to be forgetting that charging from deep strike has less than a 50% chance of working, can be negated completely by screens, and you can only do it with part of your army. It's already very risky and a huge gamble. I guess they want it to be high risk zero reward instead.

It's not a 50% chance when you have + to charge and re-rolls.

Danny slag wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

Why? Seriously give a reason. You dont say "shooting needs to be riskier" despite it being stronger than close combat. And combat already is riskier. So all close combat armies need to be fethed into uselessness because of one unit, blood angel captains?

The changes to the BA captain have nothing to do with melee armies in general.

In any case buy some Rhinos and give them 2+ armor saves.

You seem to be confused. Everyone took smash captains with jump packs to deep strike in. so GW nerfed deep stroking. Which yes effects every melee army.

Oh sure let me put my GSC in rhinos....oh wait.

Chimeras, brah.

Danny slag wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
And that shows the asinine bias of your argument because you wouldn't say the same thing about shooting a unit. But doesn't shooting them dead also stop them from doing anything? Oh but that's different because that's what the armies you play do. Your entire argument still sums up in "units I don't use shouldn't be able to do anything to units I use."
You're dense.

I play an all mono-faction all Primaris Imperial Fists army. I can't gunline the way you claim if I wanted to and have to rely on controlling the board center to win games. But nice projection of how my army is the cancer of the game despite not being in the top 10 this entire edition.

The current meta is already a result of the builds we've mentioned being nerfed and the game is better for it. Your bias for melee only armies is basically insane if only for the fact that the game shouldn't allow one player to lock the other player completely out of every phase save for assualt on turn 1. Even if you want to argue that shooting is strong it doesn't prevent you from doing other things in the game and they even gave you a means on increasing the durability of your army against shooting on turn 1 (and making transports better since they'll weather shooting on turn 1 better).

Says they don't play gunline then proceeds to say they play a gunline army.

Again you seem to think that shooting a unit dead is "fair" but killing it in melee isn't, somehow. Go ahead and tell me how my units you've shot off the board "still get to do something."

You don't even know what a gunline is lol

**ClockworkZion**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Uh, what nerf? They were exempt from Deep Strike rule before today.

They couldn't warp time out of a webway portal to make the charge go from "hard to make" to "impossible to fail".

That's still in the BRB FAQ unchanged (and, frankly, was always rather obvious, aside from a few idiots arguing that the sky is red, because it said right out of the gate when 8th edition was released that units arriving from reinforcement cannot move further except charge).

My point was that change is part of what nerfed the Tzaangor bomb as it was originally played. People seem to thing the Tzaangor slingshot is the same thing despite it not working the same way (DMC crystal usually punts the unit out of Warptime support range meaning you're making a longer charge than you were before).

**Audustum**

SHUPPET wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Audustum wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Uh, no, not at all. Let's review the lists, shall we?

I have no idea why you decided to say "Top 30" except maybe because it helps you. Most places generally settle on top 10 and occasionally top 15. In order to include as many lists as possible, here's the top 16 (cause I found na extra):

1. Knights/CP Farm
2. Knights/CP Farm
3. Ynnari
4. Knights/CP Farm
5. Morty+Magnus Party
6. Knights/CP Farm
7. Custodes Mass Jetbikes
8. Dark Eldar
9. Blood Angels
10. Harlequinns
11. Knight/CP Farm
12. Custodes (Infantry of all things)
13. Knights/CP Farm
14. Tau
15. Adeptus Astartes
16. Daemons

So looking at this, the top lists aside from Knight/CP Farm are almost certainly Eldar of some sort or another. There were only two Chaos lists at all that could even TAKE Tzaangoer bombs. Cultist Spam, even with Abaddon, has like no presence at all. Honestly, your idea of the current meta just seems wildly off base or based on early 2018 as opposed to late 2018.

Why would you ignore evidence just because it helps your perspective lol. It's a fact that they are taking spots in the top 30 so that isn't bad at all, it helps his perspective so he stated it. What the hell is this logic that the cut off point for success has to be where you deem it lol

Uhh, you just made my argument to HIM at ME. I'm going with what is traditionally catalogue'd and kept so we can verify that these are high performing players/lists (i.e. the top). That way we can control for player error being a factor as much as possible. He's the one that just decided to use 30 as an arbitrary number.

**Danny slag**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Karol wrote:
It lasts a turn. What are you going to do when it wears off? Just stand there?

Well at the speed infantry moves, at least of the marine kind, it is more or less the same. With those huge cover buildings a single move is often not enough to cross one area terrain on foot.

Guess what: YOU CAN RUN. Also transports move even faster than that if you want to max out your turn 1 move. It's like you can't conceive of a game that requires effort to execute things instead of just getting to break the game with turn 1 massed charges that force the person who is going second to basically autolose.

Turn one charges are dumb and break the game but turn one massed shooting is tactical genius and doesnt..bias much?

**beir**

ThePorcupine wrote:
They just completely butchered the entire Harlequin army with the changes to "fly" and "flip belts." Without maneuverability, Harlequins are nothing.

Not nothing, you still get to play with tiny, plastic space clowns.

**SHUPPET**

bananathug wrote:
Confirmed GW and competitive players are not playing the same game.

The loyal 32 just became more important. Cheap CP is even more valuable with only limited means of regening it (although the warlord trait and relic have been nerfed). The ability of units to screen from flying charges makes chaff even more important and punishes armies that can't throw chaff out.

Nothing done about 3++ castillians. New targeting/shooting rules make rotate ion shields even more powerful. Eldar psychic powers still OP as all outdoors. DE, ugh.

The real problem of soup (gaming detachments for strat access/use) doesn't seem to be understood by GW yet. Patting themselves on the back for battle brothers which "solved" a problem that no one was having (Celestine plus assassins was the only exploit I saw) shows the disconnect they have with their own game.

The no deepstrike protections are clearly a crutch for non-competitive players. Anyone who has the tactical acumen of an 8 year old is able to screen out deepstrikers. Forcing units to stay off the table until turn 2 just increases the value of resilient long range shoot (hmmm, no problematic units have those traits...) and fast/double moving units (nope, not meta defining units at all).

Oh, the fortifications can hold objectives is such a terrible rule. Stinks of marketing "we need to sell more fortifications for this edition" I can't think of any other reason a building should be able to hold an objective...

Terrain still sucks. True LOS is so bad (the tip of my spear shoots the corner of your command flag pole). The character targeting rules are still dumb (that unit of scouts hidden in that building mean you can't shoot my shield captain on top of the building.

Underwhelming at best. I was hoping the terrain interactions would be looked at. Deepstriking would be limited to outside of 9" of enemies deployment zone. LOS required for psychic powers. Character targeting looked at. Relics modified. Something done about the loyal 32. Vect once per turn. No heretic astartes for cultists. Something done about the double shoot/move/attack strats. Word of pheonix/SfD changes.

I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game.

Basically the things that are making the game as unbalanced as it is on a competitive level and next to nothing (raising the cost of some strats and going from 2 cp per turn to 1 cp per turn regen will have an effect turn 3 or later but by that time the broken stuff has already done it's job).

Doesn't leave me optimistic for CA but I'm still holding out hope. Maybe they had to stay away from all of those changes since CA is already at the printers and I'll be pleasantly surprised but in the mean time anyone want to buy a slightly used BA or SM codex?

Absolutely everything here mirrors my own thoughts. This FAQ is really bad and you've done a great job of articulating way.

**Karol**

But if I use a transports, lets say a LR like you propose, what is going to happen is that If I start and move it, my opponent will just blow it up on his turn 1. if I have a unit of termintors, I at least have one more turn to move around and shot stuff. If he blows me up turn one, am in the middel of no where with 5 dudes that are just getting shot by the rest of his army.
Am not saying playing with GK is fun, but playing GK and losing before your turn 2 is really unfun. And it is even worse if my opponent gets turn one and just blows the LR in my deployment.

I don't understand the mass charges thing. Maybe I was doing something wrong with my GK, but am almost sure something like a mass turn 1 charge with them was not possible. Are we talking about other editions, because I only played 8th and that since around december.

**ClockworkZion**

Danny slag wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
A gunline that balls up around an aura and slowly walks forward a few inches is still a gunline.

By your definition any army that relies on shooting is a gunline regardless of how it actually plays. You're watering down a term to be next to meaningless just so you can claim to be right.

Funny then that you don't ever address any of my actual arguments about the balance and only argue semantics.

You don't have an arguement, you have a massive bias about balance and will twist definitions to suit your arguments instead of tailoring your argument to suit the definitions. RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL

Seriously, you're arguing that an all Primaris army is somehow breaking the game because it relies on shooting. That is the epitome of reaching just so you can claim to be right.

**SHUPPET**

Audustum wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Audustum wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Uh, no, not at all. Let's review the lists, shall we?

I have no idea why you decided to say "Top 30" except maybe because it helps you. Most places generally settle on top 10 and occasionally top 15. In order to include as many lists as possible, here's the top 16 (cause I found na extra):

1. Knights/CP Farm
2. Knights/CP Farm
3. Ynnari
4. Knights/CP Farm
5. Morty+Magnus Party
6. Knights/CP Farm
7. Custodes Mass Jetbikes
8. Dark Eldar
9. Blood Angels
10. Harlequinns
11. Knight/CP Farm
12. Custodes (Infantry of all things)
13. Knights/CP Farm
14. Tau
15. Adeptus Astartes
16. Daemons

So looking at this, the top lists aside from Knight/CP Farm are almost certainly Eldar of some sort or another. There were only two Chaos lists at all that could even TAKE Tzaangoer bombs. Cultist Spam, even with Abaddon, has like no presence at all. Honestly, your idea of the current meta just seems wildly off base or based on early 2018 as opposed to late 2018.

Why would you ignore evidence just because it helps your perspective lol. It's a fact that they are taking spots in the top 30 so that isn't bad at all, it helps his perspective so he stated it. What the hell is this logic that the cut off point for success has to be where you deem it lol

Uhh, you just made my argument to HIM at ME. I'm going with what is traditionally catalogue'd and kept so we can verify that these are high performing players/lists (i.e. the top). That way we can control for player error being a factor as much as possible. He's the one that just decided to use 30 as an arbitrary number.

Uhhhh no I didn't, you just didn't get my point. "What's traditionally catalogued" is also an arbitrary number, and to limit it to that when it's clear the army is still successful just beyond that limit you are setting for this tournament is absurd. The topic was whether they are successful, ignoring evidence of this success just because it doesn't fit into a top 10 isn't a sensible decision may all.

**Captain Joystick**

Ok. So they caught that the Deathmask on an ogryn bodyguard stacks with the slab shield, no more 2++ Lenny.

Also, explicit clarification: you can have three units of three leman russes, and Tau drones that are attachments to other units don't count as Tau drone units. Common sense things.

**ClockworkZion**

Danny slag wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Karol wrote:
It lasts a turn. What are you going to do when it wears off? Just stand there?

Well at the speed infantry moves, at least of the marine kind, it is more or less the same. With those huge cover buildings a single move is often not enough to cross one area terrain on foot.

Guess what: YOU CAN RUN. Also transports move even faster than that if you want to max out your turn 1 move. It's like you can't conceive of a game that requires effort to execute things instead of just getting to break the game with turn 1 massed charges that force the person who is going second to basically autolose.

Turn one charges are dumb and break the game but turn one massed shooting is tactical genius and doesnt..bias much?

Let me break it down for you in the simplest way I can (sans crayons because I'm not going to take the time to draw pictures for you):

If you lock someone into melee on turn one and they can't leave melee, or shoot your engaged units because your entire army is locked in combat, you have negated your opponent from their movement, shooting and charge phases (unless they have pistols then they get a nerfed shooting phase). An army shooting you on turn one does not prevent you from moving, nor does it prevent you from shooting or charging. THAT is why massed charges on turn 1 broke the game. It kept people from actually playing the game.

**Spoletta**

Hmm, let's try to analize this FAQ point per point.

New Deep strike rules: Hmmm, not sold on these. Sure they hit many top aeldari builds, which is fine. Makes the ravenguard/alpha legion stratagems less of an all-in, which I like. Slaps in the face slamguinius and bananas, which i really like. But at what cost? BA, GK and termies in general are now in an even worse situation. Let's hope that they do something for them in CA.

New CP farm rules: Would have preferred the CPs to be tied to the detachments, but this is fine too. Coupled with an increased cost of the most common stratagems, this shatters the existing top lists to pieces. Taking a CP relic/trait or something else is finally a choice, this is good. This is also a nerf to the loyal 32, which again is good. The bad is that we are going to see a lot knights fueled by IG brigades, so the problem was only partially fixed.

New generic stratagem: Really good. Makes elite armies better, reduces the importance of going first and in general makes CC armies stronger. This one is spot on and is actually a change i had suggested (i suggested -1 to hit though).

Changes to fly: Honestly they don't really make a lot of sense, but FLY was too strong, so i will see this as half full. For those who didn't notice, Harlies still can do that, it has been added to the flip belts.

Changes to stratagem costs: No comment here, they were obvious and needed.

Lists of 9 demon princes confirmed: This is unexpected.

In general i like it, i would give it 7/10. They did act on the right points, but sometimes not in the best way (IMHO).

I guess that it will make more sense when we see CA.

Also, for those that were guessing about this, CA is finalized around mid November (at least the point changes, the rest of it is probably done by now), this has been demonstrated with the previous CA. It will include any feedback up to the start of November.

Edit: No, flip belts can't ignore terrains, that's a bad change.

**Nazrak**

This all seems ok to me. Would rather see incremental changes, then seeing how they play out, than the entire structure of the game massively shifting every time they do one of these. I'll be interested to see how it all shakes out.

**ClockworkZion**

Karol wrote:
But if I use a transports, lets say a LR like you propose, what is going to happen is that If I start and move it, my opponent will just blow it up on his turn 1. if I have a unit of termintors, I at least have one more turn to move around and shot stuff. If he blows me up turn one, am in the middel of no where with 5 dudes that are just getting shot by the rest of his army.
Am not saying playing with GK is fun, but playing GK and losing before your turn 2 is really unfun. And it is even worse if my opponent gets turn one and just blows the LR in my deployment.

I don't understand the mass charges thing. Maybe I was doing something wrong with my GK, but am almost sure something like a mass turn 1 charge with them was not possible. Are we talking about other editions, because I only played 8th and that since around december.

You have a 2+ save normally and a 1+ save if you go second. And if they DID kill it, then they weren't killing your Terminators (unless you roll poorly on the unit inside).

And I apologize for the confusion on the massed charges thing, that was another poster. Grey Knights are like Marines: you can't really go all in on just Terminators and expect to win games (just ask Dark Angels). You can consider allying in some Guard or taking Power Armoured Grey Knights (who are cheaper and fit in Rhinos) to help balance your list more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:
A bunch of cry bitches who think it's unfair if any combat unit has even a slight chance of doing anything.

No one is saying melee shouldn't be able to do anything. We're saying that melee shouldn't be given the ability to lock an entire army out of 2-3 phases of the game before the other player even gets to do anything.

**Nazrak**

Also, I don't get why GsC players are getting furious; there's going to be a Codex along any minute, and I imagine the way that functions has been factored into these changes.

**Audustum**

SHUPPET wrote:
Audustum wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Audustum wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Danny slag wrote:

Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Uh, no, not at all. Let's review the lists, shall we?

I have no idea why you decided to say "Top 30" except maybe because it helps you. Most places generally settle on top 10 and occasionally top 15. In order to include as many lists as possible, here's the top 16 (cause I found na extra):

1. Knights/CP Farm
2. Knights/CP Farm
3. Ynnari
4. Knights/CP Farm
5. Morty+Magnus Party
6. Knights/CP Farm
7. Custodes Mass Jetbikes
8. Dark Eldar
9. Blood Angels
10. Harlequinns
11. Knight/CP Farm
12. Custodes (Infantry of all things)
13. Knights/CP Farm
14. Tau
15. Adeptus Astartes
16. Daemons

So looking at this, the top lists aside from Knight/CP Farm are almost certainly Eldar of some sort or another. There were only two Chaos lists at all that could even TAKE Tzaangoer bombs. Cultist Spam, even with Abaddon, has like no presence at all. Honestly, your idea of the current meta just seems wildly off base or based on early 2018 as opposed to late 2018.

Why would you ignore evidence just because it helps your perspective lol. It's a fact that they are taking spots in the top 30 so that isn't bad at all, it helps his perspective so he stated it. What the hell is this logic that the cut off point for success has to be where you deem it lol

Uhh, you just made my argument to HIM at ME. I'm going with what is traditionally catalogue'd and kept so we can verify that these are high performing players/lists (i.e. the top). That way we can control for player error being a factor as much as possible. He's the one that just decided to use 30 as an arbitrary number.

Uhhhh no I didn't, you just didn't get my point. "What's traditionally catalogued" is also an arbitrary number, and to limit it to that when it's clear the army is still successful just beyond that limit you are setting for this tournament is absurd. The topic was whether they are successful, ignoring evidence of this success just because it doesn't fit into a top 10 isn't a sensible decision may all.

No, the topic was whether they were breaking the game, OP, in need of a fix, however you want to phrase it. Just because something is successful doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Only when it is unreasonably successful.

The traditional pull is used because that's the only one we have data on we can use to at least try and exclude player error from the equation. If you want to change that, you can't just arbitrarily add more numbers. You'd need to start cataloguing all that yourself or find someone who did/is.

**VoidSempai**

The problem is that shooting has always had all the problem they try to nerf from melee.

''Auto-charge from deepstrike''
Most heavier ranged platform will always have range on their target of choice, sometimes even regardless of LoS

''Can jump over screen and target my good unit immediately''
Shooting also does that 100% of the time by virtue of true LoS and without difficulty

''Melee is unfun to play against because i'm stuck in my deployment zone''
Because walking forward for 2 turns while getting shot at and doing negligible damage in return is way more fun. Also, most ranged army standstill turn 1 and 2 anyway, and only starts moving later to get objective and mop up the squads left to kill.

But every nerf is directed towards melee army. Boy am I glad I dropped csm + daemon in favor of necrons. Necrons are bad, but at least the game dev don't actively try to take their presence out of the game.

**ClockworkZion**

Nazrak wrote:
Also, I don't get why GsC players are getting furious; there's going to be a Codex along any minute, and I imagine the way that functions has been factored into these changes.

GSC are likely next year meaning that they're nerfed for at least the next 3 months or so. I mean GW could drop them in November, but I don't think anyone is counting on that right now.

**SHUPPET**

Nazrak wrote:
Also, I don't get why GsC players are getting furious; there's going to be a Codex along any minute, and I imagine the way that functions has been factored into these changes.

They literally just said its still in development, so whenever that finishes it then has to go to print, so GSC are at least stuck this way till 2019 or later most likely.

**Spoletta**

VoidSempai wrote:
The problem is that shooting has always had all the problem they try to nerf from melee.

''Auto-charge from deepstrike''
Most heavier ranged platform will always have range on their target of choice, sometimes even regardless of LoS

''Can jump over screen and target my good unit immediately''
Shooting also does that 100% of the time by virtue of true LoS and without difficulty

''Melee is unfun to play against because i'm stuck in my deployment zone''
Because walking forward for 2 turns while getting shot at and doing negligible damage in return is way more fun. Also, most ranged army standstill turn 1 and 2 anyway, and only starts moving later to get objective and mop up the squads left to kill.

But every nerf is directed towards melee army. Boy am I glad I dropped csm + daemon in favor of necrons. Necrons are bad, but at least the game dev don't actively try to take their presence out of the game.

I don't get this. CC armies just recevied a huge buff.

First turn cover is a huge nerf to shooty lists. The first turn is the greatest advantage a gunline list gets, having it nerfed is an enormous change.

**An Actual Englishman**

Nazrak wrote:
Also, I don't get why GsC players are getting furious; there's going to be a Codex along any minute, and I imagine the way that functions has been factored into these changes.

As an Ork player (waiter), define "any minute".

**Karol**

I just hope that when the CA or new FAQ update comes out my friends don't suddenly decide they want to play a different game or just plain quit. That would suck .

**Xenomancers**

"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

**Martel732**

It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

**Agiel**

Has a beta rule ever been rescinded? That change to Harlequin flip-belts (and, in my opinion, units with fly charging) is an absolute outrage. It takes a lot of the flavour from Harlequins and ostensibly makes them buffed up Wyches/Howling Banshees.

**ShaneMarsh**

The FAQ has a few decent things. It is mostly trash.

**ClockworkZion**

VoidSempai wrote:
The problem is that shooting has always had all the problem they try to nerf from melee.

''Auto-charge from deepstrike''
Most heavier ranged platform will always have range on their target of choice, sometimes even regardless of LoS

Very few units ignore LoS, and save for Reapers, most are fairly priced and balanced.

VoidSempai wrote:
''Can jump over screen and target my good unit immediately''
Shooting also does that 100% of the time by virtue of true LoS and without difficulty

I actually agree with this. There should be a penalty to hit for shooting through units or a bonus to the save for the targeted unit (or a rule that misses get resolved against the screening unit, SOMETHING). That said, there is something worth noting: Characters are typically excempt from this.

VoidSempai wrote:
''Melee is unfun to play against because i'm stuck in my deployment zone''
Because walking forward for 2 turns while getting shot at and doing negligible damage in return is way more fun. Also, most ranged army standstill turn 1 and 2 anyway, and only starts moving later to get objective and mop up the squads left to kill.

This is just a strawman. Turn 1 mass charges were unfun because you lost your ability to move, to shoot (you paid points for all those guns you can't shoot now) and you often can't even charge. Getting shot turn 1 doesn't prevent a unit from moving, shooting or charging unless you completely wipe it out.

VoidSempai wrote:
But every nerf is directed towards melee army. Boy am I glad I dropped csm + daemon in favor of necrons. Necrons are bad, but at least the game dev don't actively try to take their presence out of the game.

They were directed at some very specific melee builds that broke the game in ways that shouldn't have happened.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

It means a melee army can toe up right along the front of their deployment zone instead of further back in cover meaning they'll engage sooner. But sure, the game is only biased towards shooting.