Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

But if it is considered needed by GW to balance the game, why not put the rule in effect for free. So as a balancing factor to the startin player having a huge advantage, the player going second gets +1 their save for free. 2CP is a lot to pay for some armies.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

2CP for your ENTIRE ARMY in your deployment zone (sans Titanic units). No other strat works on your entire army like that.

Audustum wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Uh, no, not at all. Let's review the lists, shall we?

I have no idea why you decided to say "Top 30" except maybe because it helps you. Most places generally settle on top 10 and occasionally top 15. In order to include as many lists as possible, here's the top 16 (cause I found na extra):

1. Knights/CP Farm
2. Knights/CP Farm
3. Ynnari
4. Knights/CP Farm
5. Morty+Magnus Party
6. Knights/CP Farm
7. Custodes Mass Jetbikes
8. Dark Eldar
9. Blood Angels
10. Harlequinns
11. Knight/CP Farm
12. Custodes (Infantry of all things)
13. Knights/CP Farm
14. Tau
15. Adeptus Astartes
16. Daemons

So looking at this, the top lists aside from Knight/CP Farm are almost certainly Eldar of some sort or another. There were only two Chaos lists at all that could even TAKE Tzaangoer bombs. Cultist Spam, even with Abaddon, has like no presence at all. Honestly, your idea of the current meta just seems wildly off base or based on early 2018 as opposed to late 2018.

Why would you ignore evidence just because it helps your perspective lol. It's a fact that they are taking spots in the top 30 so that isn't bad at all, it helps his perspective so he stated it. What the hell is this logic that the cut off point for success has to be where you deem it lol

Uhh, you just made my argument to HIM at ME. I'm going with what is traditionally catalogue'd and kept so we can verify that these are high performing players/lists (i.e. the top). That way we can control for player error being a factor as much as possible. He's the one that just decided to use 30 as an arbitrary number.

Uhhhh no I didn't, you just didn't get my point. "What's traditionally catalogued" is also an arbitrary number, and to limit it to that when it's clear the army is still successful just beyond that limit you are setting for this tournament is absurd. The topic was whether they are successful, ignoring evidence of this success just because it doesn't fit into a top 10 isn't a sensible decision may all.

No, the topic was whether they were breaking the game, OP, in need of a fix, however you want to phrase it. Just because something is successful doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Only when it is unreasonably successful.

The traditional pull is used because that's the only one we have data on we can use to at least try and exclude player error from the equation. If you want to change that, you can't just arbitrarily add more numbers. You'd need to start cataloguing all that yourself or find someone who did/is.

No, the topic was literally "point to an army that did any good", to which Thousand Sons was given as an answer, to which you disagreed with them doing good. Nobody said they were OP yet.

The traditional pull is a representation of who got top 8 or top 16. This is not a representation of every single army that is doing good, and ones that placed multiple times in a top 30 of one of the largest competitive events of the year definitely fit that description by my measure even if they didn't break top 16. You have conflated the two, and for this topic, your limit of "the traditional pull" is entirely arbitrary.

And I'm AGAINST the change, I think it's bad, dumbs down the game, and I do not think that TSons needed a nerf. If that was what you had said I would have agreed. But what you are currently arguing is that they are not doing good, and top 30 multiple times isn't good because it's not top 16, and that's absurd, especially since they won the major just before that.

Agiel wrote:
Has a beta rule ever been rescinded? That change to Harlequin flip-belts (and, in my opinion, units with fly charging) is an absolute outrage. It takes a lot of the flavour from Harlequins and ostensibly makes them buffed up Wyches/Howling Banshees.

Flip belt change isn't a beta rule (neither is the change to fly actually):

Pages 56, 57, 58, 59 and 60 – Flip Belt
Change this ability to read:
‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.’

So yeah, don't expect changes there. You're going to need to make your movement phase matter more to catch characters or knights more easily.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

PFFF it's not minor. +1 armor to your whole army while deploying where ever you want is massive. This is actually a nerf to skill - people seem to think is so important in this game.

It's a massive buff to imperial guard. Every single gaurdsmen has a 4+ save to shooting turn 1. It's a huge freaking joke.

We are approaching IG holocost time. Can't even assault over their undercosted screening anymore. House rules for me from now on. Too bad I already bought tickets to LVO.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

Being out of LOS is still better than +1 armor save. People always say that it's impossible to be out of LOS with the (admittedly bad) true LOS rules, but the ITC ruled all 1st floors as totally LOS blocking which helps with this.

Spoletta wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:
The problem is that shooting has always had all the problem they try to nerf from melee.

''Auto-charge from deepstrike''
Most heavier ranged platform will always have range on their target of choice, sometimes even regardless of LoS

''Can jump over screen and target my good unit immediately''
Shooting also does that 100% of the time by virtue of true LoS and without difficulty

''Melee is unfun to play against because i'm stuck in my deployment zone''
Because walking forward for 2 turns while getting shot at and doing negligible damage in return is way more fun. Also, most ranged army standstill turn 1 and 2 anyway, and only starts moving later to get objective and mop up the squads left to kill.

But every nerf is directed towards melee army. Boy am I glad I dropped csm + daemon in favor of necrons. Necrons are bad, but at least the game dev don't actively try to take their presence out of the game.

I don't get this. CC armies just recevied a huge buff.

First turn cover is a huge nerf to shooty lists. The first turn is the greatest advantage a gunline list gets, having it nerfed is an enormous change.

oh sure, let me pay 2 CP for a bonus I could already get for free just by placing my unit correctly on the battlefield. I'm sure that +1 saves is going to save me from those ignore cover, ap-2 tau weapon, or those ap-3 weapon that shoot from across the table. Or those -2ap hiveguard that don't need LoS.

Every game I play, I always try to at least deploy with a toe in cover just to try and benefit from it, and it usually changed nothing. So now you can pay a big 2CP to maybe save 2-3 marine on the first turn only. Let's not even talk of what this does for orks and GSC.

But in the opposite corner, now most melee unit can't contribute to the battle until at least turn 2 at the earliest (except for genestealer and tzangor bomb, which, while very good, can still be screened against), and even then they will probably get stuck assaulting screening unit. The opponent will sure feel the lost of those 20 guardsman.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

PFFF it's not minor. +1 armor to your whole army while deploying where ever you want is massive. This is actually a nerf to skill - people seem to think is so important in this game.

It's a massive buff to imperial guard. Every single gaurdsmen has a 4+ save to shooting turn 1. It's a huge freaking joke.

It's a buff to melee armies too since the edge of your deployment zone is often in front of ruins you'd hide your models in. That said, horde melee armies will still need to stay out of LOS, but anyone hiding in a transport got a buff.

 Nazrak wrote:
Also, I don't get why GsC players are getting furious; there's going to be a Codex along any minute, and I imagine the way that functions has been factored into these changes.

What this means either this(beta) rule was came up with month ago or gsc codex is further away anybody thought. Def not this year.

Could be long wait

VoidSempai wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:
The problem is that shooting has always had all the problem they try to nerf from melee.

''Auto-charge from deepstrike''
Most heavier ranged platform will always have range on their target of choice, sometimes even regardless of LoS

''Can jump over screen and target my good unit immediately''
Shooting also does that 100% of the time by virtue of true LoS and without difficulty

''Melee is unfun to play against because i'm stuck in my deployment zone''
Because walking forward for 2 turns while getting shot at and doing negligible damage in return is way more fun. Also, most ranged army standstill turn 1 and 2 anyway, and only starts moving later to get objective and mop up the squads left to kill.

But every nerf is directed towards melee army. Boy am I glad I dropped csm + daemon in favor of necrons. Necrons are bad, but at least the game dev don't actively try to take their presence out of the game.

I don't get this. CC armies just recevied a huge buff.

First turn cover is a huge nerf to shooty lists. The first turn is the greatest advantage a gunline list gets, having it nerfed is an enormous change.

oh sure, let me pay 2 CP for a bonus I could already get for free just by placing my unit correctly on the battlefield. I'm sure that +1 saves is going to save me from those ignore cover, ap-2 tau weapon, or those ap-3 weapon that shoot from across the table. Or those -2ap hiveguard that don't need LoS.

Every game I play, I always try to at least deploy with a toe in cover just to try and benefit from it, and it usually changed nothing. So now you can pay a big 2CP to maybe save 2-3 marine on the first turn only. Let's not even talk of what this does for orks and GSC.

But in the opposite corner, now most melee unit can't contribute to the battle until at least turn 2 at the earliest (except for genestealer and tzangor bomb, which, while very good, can still be screened against), and even then they will probably get stuck assaulting screening unit. The opponent will sure feel the lost of those 20 guardsman.

2CP to put your army closer to theirs with less risk instead of being further back in cover.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

And getting your entire army shot off the board before it has any chance to do any damage isn't fun either. But that half of the equation doesn't seem to ever come up. Because as I said they're ok discouraging combat armies.

I haven't seen many shooty armies do well recently, with the exception of the Castellan, which is (still) just broken.

Genestealers, Ynnari, Prophets of Flesh, Daemons, Bash-Brothers, Tzaangors, etc.. are pretty much all you see at top tables, if you subtract the IG/BA/Castellan lists.


Melee has an edge at moment and shooting (e.g. Tau, Necrons, Marines without Guilliman) definitely needs a boost. Just the reality of the game atm.

Yeah, the thing that all (or at least most, my knowledge on some of them is limited) those melee units have in common is that they have a pretty big chance to get into CC first turn or straight out of Deepstrike. Meanwhile slower assault units or armies get shot off the board without doing anything if they can't make it into CC turn 1 against a gunline.

A few weeks ago I took a assault-focused Space Wolves list to a small tournament in my FLGS (850 points). Looking back at it it was a pretty crappy list but getting shot off the board because my opponent simply pointed his Dark Reapers/ Leman Russ Executioners/ Hellblasters (DA with Weapons from the Dark Age) at me just felt so stupid. I took 2 Wulfen Dreadnoughts combined with a Rune Priest and got the Storm Caller + that stratagem that gives you -1 to hit in a 6" radius if you manifest a power off in T1 in all 3 games and got first turn all three matches. Neither of my dreads made it into CC even once despite both having the Blizzard Shield for the 4+ invul. Only in the game vs. Craftworld Eldar one of my Dreads survived courtesy to it guarding a squad Grey Hunters at the other side of the board. In the games vs. Guard and DA both were shot off the board by turn 2. I think I inflicted less than 20 wounds of damage over 3 matches or about 5 hours of playing that day.

Thing is, the damage in current 40k is so high that for an assault unit to be viable it either needs to be able to get into CC reliably in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) or be tanky as hell. If it is neither the best it can do is serve as a Distraction Carnifex.

40K life is pretty tough as a casual player that likes assault. Shooty armies only have to get into line of sight and let loose, I have to carefully maneuver around terrain, pray that shooting/ overwatch doesn't kill me, I'm fethed over by default if my opponent plays an infantry gunline that hides in ruins (at least with my SW army that purely consists of ground-pounders, only exception is the Rune Priest who has a jump pack) and I have to carefully consider what I charge and fight due to fallback, pile in, consolidate and heroic interventions. Now I like a challenge, but the difference in skill floor between playing shooty and choppy is enormous (yes I know I'm oversimplifying shooting in this example but you know what I mean).

Pandabeer wrote:
Thing is, the damage in current 40k is so high that for an assault unit to be viable it either needs to be able to get into CC reliably in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) or be tanky as hell. If it is neither the best it can do is serve as a Distraction Carnifex.

You're basically describing most of the Marine options in the game. They are neither fast enough or tanky enough but that's more an issue with how they interact with weapon AP now.

 beir wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

Being out of LOS is still better than +1 armor save. People always say that it's impossible to be out of LOS with the (admittedly bad) true LOS rules, but the ITC ruled all 1st floors as totally LOS blocking which helps with this.

You can still deploy out of LOS - plenty of things don't want to move so they can shoot with no penalty turn 1. It's a huge buff to infantry which can now deploy to screen but don't lose cover save bonus to do it. This buffs IG harder than any army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 beir wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

Being out of LOS is still better than +1 armor save. People always say that it's impossible to be out of LOS with the (admittedly bad) true LOS rules, but the ITC ruled all 1st floors as totally LOS blocking which helps with this.

You can still deploy out of LOS - plenty of things don't want to move so they can shoot with no penalty turn 1. It's a huge buff to infantry which can now deploy to screen but don't lose cover save bonus to do it. This buffs IG harder than any army.

It buffs Chaos just as much (if not more since their saves are worse) for the same reason.

EDIT: Also camo-cloaks on Scouts acting as a Screening unit have a 2+ despite not being in terrain.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 beir wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

Being out of LOS is still better than +1 armor save. People always say that it's impossible to be out of LOS with the (admittedly bad) true LOS rules, but the ITC ruled all 1st floors as totally LOS blocking which helps with this.

You can still deploy out of LOS - plenty of things don't want to move so they can shoot with no penalty turn 1. It's a huge buff to infantry which can now deploy to screen but don't lose cover save bonus to do it. This buffs IG harder than any army.

My response was addressing your contention that deployment now takes no skill. If anything, this additional option now requires slightly more decision making. 2cp with nerfed farming is nothing to sneeze at. It's an expensive option. You still have to be smart about hiding things out of LOS, deciding if it's worth the risk of hiding your heavy weapons in case you don't get first turn, etc.

Pandabeer wrote:

Thing is, the damage in current 40k is so high that for an assault unit to be viable it either needs to be able to get into CC reliably in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) or be tanky as hell. If it is neither the best it can do is serve as a Distraction Carnifex.

Thing is, cc is so devastating, that any CC army getting in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) wins the game. If there's no way for the opponent to make a play to potentially deny it, there's no game.

It's a broader problem of GW upping the damage output of armies with every Codex far more significantly than the damage-mitigation/defensive abilities. It's a structural issue outside of CC.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

PFFF it's not minor. +1 armor to your whole army while deploying where ever you want is massive. This is actually a nerf to skill - people seem to think is so important in this game.

It's a massive buff to imperial guard. Every single gaurdsmen has a 4+ save to shooting turn 1. It's a huge freaking joke.

It's a buff to melee armies too since the edge of your deployment zone is often in front of ruins you'd hide your models in. That said, horde melee armies will still need to stay out of LOS, but anyone hiding in a transport got a buff.

Big buff to levithan hive fleet. was never able to get my termigants in cover cause they are big units. Can deploy all my fex right on the front line willy nilly. This is a great change for tyranids. Sucks for Jorm though...Levi undisputed champion now.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Being out of LOS is still better than +1 armor save. People always say that it's impossible to be out of LOS with the (admittedly bad) true LOS rules, but the ITC ruled all 1st floors as totally LOS blocking which helps with this.

You can still deploy out of LOS - plenty of things don't want to move so they can shoot with no penalty turn 1. It's a huge buff to infantry which can now deploy to screen but don't lose cover save bonus to do it. This buffs IG harder than any army.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

PFFF it's not minor. +1 armor to your whole army while deploying where ever you want is massive. This is actually a nerf to skill - people seem to think is so important in this game.

It's a massive buff to imperial guard. Every single gaurdsmen has a 4+ save to shooting turn 1. It's a huge freaking joke.

It's a buff to melee armies too since the edge of your deployment zone is often in front of ruins you'd hide your models in. That said, horde melee armies will still need to stay out of LOS, but anyone hiding in a transport got a buff.

Melee horde armies cannot stay outside of LOS. Keeping 30 orks out of LOS is impossible. It is also impossible to put them in cover, so this stratagem is really appreciated.

Really the only ones who can (and should) complain about this are daemons.

Elite armies were greatly buffed.
Horde CC armies were buffed. Let's not downplay the value of a 5+ save here. What, when IG has it it breaks the game but on an ork it becomes useless?
Makes armors saves more reliable than invul saves, which is also something that the game needed.
Makes going first less important.
Makes cover ignoring rules more important.

I love all of it!

[

Cheap CP is even more valuable with only limited means of regening it

The CP farms are also the ones with the best regen. The cost for IG CP farms to function just went up.

I'm not sure how this refutes my point that cheap CP gets more valuable without a way to regen it unless you are agreeing that those cheap CP sources are still OP as they still have the easiest way of regening those CP (although not as powerful now).

Nothing done about 3++ castillians. New targeting/shooting rules make rotate ion shields even more powerful.

The cost for CP went up. Smash captains are no longer easily filling in the holes of their list.

These armies will be able to keep that 3++ up through 2-3 turns even with the current cost of cp. The demise of the smash captain conversely makes that castilian even more powerful (no flying charge over screens was one of the few ways to threaten a 3++ vs shooting on a 24 wound t8 model). The change does nothing to curb the power of a meta defining model and actually makes it more powerful (or at least more invulnerable).

DE, ugh.

Chapter Approved also Vect went up.

True. Vect at 4 limits it to twice a game (outside of rolling 6s) most likely and CA is probably a better way of addressing some of the game balance issues. Having to wait 3 more months before I can play my primaris is probably a good thing so I can finally work on getting them painted.

The no deepstrike protections are clearly a crutch for non-competitive players. Anyone who has the tactical acumen of an 8 year old is able to screen out deepstrikers. Forcing units to stay off the table until turn 2 just increases the value of resilient long range shoot (hmmm, no problematic units have those traits...) and fast/double moving units (nope, not meta defining units at all).

Oh look - the everything will be a gunline argument again. You mean armies that have access to cheap infantry only, right? I'm not sure what point you're making, because those units largely weren't coming until turn 2 last FAQ as well and the world didn't end in gun lines.

Yeah, the meta defining armies with cheap infantry or quick units. My point is the change doesn't do anything to help balance the game and is a crutch for players who can't be bothered to screen their units. Not being able to come into your own deployment zone further removes the ability of units without invluns to protect themselves further stretching the meta towards resilient shoot or fast moving assault. Units which rely on deepstrike for protection (primaris inceptors) just lost 20%ish of their usefulness (going second and being able to deploy in your own deployment zone was a way to get them a turn of shooting, now they can't come in until turn 2 no matter what). Probably not the biggest deal individually but combined with the dominance of knights in the meta this just pushes the meta further in an unhealthy direction.

Oh, the fortifications can hold objectives is such a terrible rule. Stinks of marketing "we need to sell more fortifications for this edition" I can't think of any other reason a building should be able to hold an objective...

Oh no the horror. People might actually use fortifications. I guess they don't want to sell gnarlmaws though.

Some other poster already mentioned putting a fort ontop of a objective so you can never take it without destroying the fort. It's a bad rule that doesn't add anything to the game and will most likely only be used to game the system in immersion breaking ways. Adds little to the game and could potentially make for some wonky interactions or situations where interactions are impossible. Not a fan.

Terrain still sucks. True LOS is so bad (the tip of my spear shoots the corner of your command flag pole). The character targeting rules are still dumb (that unit of scouts hidden in that building mean you can't shoot my shield captain on top of the building.

Terrain does suck. Don't stick your flag out. It's an equitable rule. Character rules are there to prevent abuse and make characters useful so complain all you want.

The character rules are clunky and are being abused (see my example). A better rule would be characters w/in 3" of a unit cannot be targeted unless they are the closest target. Prevents weird hiding scouts on your side of the table to keep all of my chanters safe but prevents character sniping if the controlling character can use some tactical moving. Either way the current rule is dumb and true LOS is bad, clarifying body of the shooting character to body of the target would be preferable to me and not break the immersion. Agreed that it cuts both ways and is "fair" I just think it makes it very difficult to take advantage of terrain which is already pretty worthless. And I will continue to offer what I consider constructive criticism so hopefully GW sees how competitive meta players see their rules (submitted to GWFAQ for all that's worth.)

I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game.

It lasts a turn. What are you going to do when it wears off? Just stand there?

It does exactly what I said it does. Removes a strategic element of "deployment." The bad terrain rules and OP shooting elements do the rest.

I fail to see how your points show another side to any of the issues I raised and you don't bring up anything that the FAQ improved. The fly measuring diagonal, the actual FAQ sections (do drones count as units, do demon data sheets count) and the CP regen nerf are the best parts of the FAQ. The rest of it is worthless at best and harmful to an already skewed meta at worst.

Spoletta wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

PFFF it's not minor. +1 armor to your whole army while deploying where ever you want is massive. This is actually a nerf to skill - people seem to think is so important in this game.

It's a massive buff to imperial guard. Every single gaurdsmen has a 4+ save to shooting turn 1. It's a huge freaking joke.

It's a buff to melee armies too since the edge of your deployment zone is often in front of ruins you'd hide your models in. That said, horde melee armies will still need to stay out of LOS, but anyone hiding in a transport got a buff.

Melee horde armies cannot stay outside of LOS. Keeping 30 orks out of LOS is impossible. It is also impossible to put them in cover, so this stratagem is really appreciated.

Really the only ones who can (and should) complain about this are daemons.

Elite armies were greatly buffed.
Horde CC armies were buffed. Let's not downplay the value of a 5+ save here. What, when IG has it it breaks the game but on an ork it becomes useless?
Makes armors saves more reliable than invul saves, which is also something that the game needed.
Makes going first less important.
Makes cover ignoring rules more important.

I love all of it!

how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a minor buff that costs 2 cp.

PFFF it's not minor. +1 armor to your whole army while deploying where ever you want is massive. This is actually a nerf to skill - people seem to think is so important in this game.

It's a massive buff to imperial guard. Every single gaurdsmen has a 4+ save to shooting turn 1. It's a huge freaking joke.

It's a buff to melee armies too since the edge of your deployment zone is often in front of ruins you'd hide your models in. That said, horde melee armies will still need to stay out of LOS, but anyone hiding in a transport got a buff.

Melee horde armies cannot stay outside of LOS. Keeping 30 orks out of LOS is impossible. It is also impossible to put them in cover, so this stratagem is really appreciated.

Really the only ones who can (and should) complain about this are daemons.

Elite armies were greatly buffed.
Horde CC armies were buffed. Let's not downplay the value of a 5+ save here. What, when IG has it it breaks the game but on an ork it becomes useless?
Makes armors saves more reliable than invul saves, which is also something that the game needed.
Makes going first less important.
Makes cover ignoring rules more important.

I love all of it!

how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

Because by it's nature cover is more effective on high armor values.
Having all marines at 2+ for turn 1 is quite an important change.

Marine (and CSM) transports also had the problem that if they went first they were fine due to activating smoke, but if you didn't have first turn they could be crippled before smoking.
Now those rhinos are 2+.

I play mono Ultramarines, now my specific warlord trait is ruined. Thanks I guess?

Prepared positions is not bad, but I dunno it's something

At least tactical reserves was made to just being based off points as opposed to points and power levels.

Strike from the shadows has been ruined along with the others, but Tau ghostkeels can still be placed right up against my deployment zone?

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Thing is, the damage in current 40k is so high that for an assault unit to be viable it either needs to be able to get into CC reliably in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) or be tanky as hell. If it is neither the best it can do is serve as a Distraction Carnifex.

Thing is, cc is so devastating, that any CC army getting in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) wins the game. If there's no way for the opponent to make a play to potentially deny it, there's no game.

It's a broader problem of GW upping the damage output of armies with every Codex far more significantly than the damage-mitigation/defensive abilities. It's a structural issue outside of CC.

Nor is there a game if you can't make it into CC T1 as a choppy army and the opponent just shoots you off the board in a single turn.

But yeah, I agree that the balance between the ability to deal damage and to soak damage is pretty out of whack at the moment.

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

I am bad at math, that is true. Could you explain it to me?

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

 SHUPPET wrote:
GSC are at least stuck this way till 2019 or later most likely.

They're book was already announced. They're coming out before the end of the year.