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 beir wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 beir wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"I'm not sure how I feel about the 2cp to give your guys cover turn 1. Having to clump all of my infantry into oddly shaped/leveled terrain was a quality of life issue I'm glad they fixed. But just being able to deploy wherever seems like it removes one of the last strategic elements of deployment further dumbing down an already dumb game. "
From bananas post
I just want to focus on this because it is so true and relates to a discussion that was being had the other day.

Deployment is basically the only part of the game outside of "building a list" that has any form of strategy. Now guess what - You can deploy where ever you want for 2 CP. No more stratagey.

How much dumber can the game freaking get?

Being out of LOS is still better than +1 armor save. People always say that it's impossible to be out of LOS with the (admittedly bad) true LOS rules, but the ITC ruled all 1st floors as totally LOS blocking which helps with this.

You can still deploy out of LOS - plenty of things don't want to move so they can shoot with no penalty turn 1. It's a huge buff to infantry which can now deploy to screen but don't lose cover save bonus to do it. This buffs IG harder than any army.

My response was addressing your contention that deployment now takes no skill. If anything, this additional option now requires slightly more decision making. 2cp with nerfed farming is nothing to sneeze at. It's an expensive option. You still have to be smart about hiding things out of LOS, deciding if it's worth the risk of hiding your heavy weapons in case you don't get first turn, etc.

decision making does not mean tactics. The same decisions always existed - do I take advantage position or a cover save. Now the only skill is figuring out the advantage position because you are automatically getting a cover save. Really though - that possition is always going to be ether as close as possible or as far away as possible depending on your army. Now your army basically deploys itself.

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

This is going to make a big difference to some armies, like 'nid swarms. Going from a 6+ to a 5+ in the face of mass low AP fire (which is fairly common).

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

I am bad at math, that is true. Could you explain it to me?

Having +1 save is huge on MEQ.

Even if all your enemy shooting is AP-3, you have effectively increased your wounds on the field by 25%.
This scales to 33% for AP-2, 50% for AP-1 and 100% for no AP.

Those numbers are quite something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't be surpised to see Rhino rush lists getting a lot of steam.

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

''Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins.
Until the end of the first turn, all units from your army that are wholly within your
Deployment Zone, other than Titanic units, receive the benefit of cover, even while
they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. A unit that is already receiving the
benefit of cover gains no additional benefit from this Stratagem.''

actually, is last the whole round, so you could be first player and pay 2CP, and when it comes the time for your opponent to shoot you still get your cover saves on your tanks or whatnot.

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

I am bad at math, that is true. Could you explain it to me?

Having +1 save is huge on MEQ.

Even if all your enemy shooting is AP-3, you have effectively increased your wounds on the field by 25%.
This scales to 33% for AP-2, 50% for AP-1 and 100% for no AP.

Those numbers are quite something.

Yes my friends army does around 32 wounds to my army per turn, and my army has 48 wounds not counting draigo. That makes my army dead turn one. I kind of a know it, because when we didn't play at the store, but at school we had no cover giving terrain, so my dudes acted as if they had the stratagem for free.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


Like what? Point to an alpha striking deep strike melee army that did any good other than blood Angel's. The ones everyone mentions, genestealers and berserkers dont deep strike and instead run up the board.

Alpha Legion. Raven Guard. Alpha Legion. Electro Priests. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion.

Also Thousand Sons and the Tzaangor bomb.

Thousand Sons were working as a Smite spam army, not a major assault army.

Tzaangor bombs had a little success, so I guess if you wanted to smash 1/10 of the top lists; mission accomplished.

Not true. NOVA finals was a Tzaangor Bomb. And plenty more in the Top 30. Aside from Castellan-lists, it was easily the top list out there, and with Castellan/BA lists getting a nerf, it wouldn't do to just not address the 3-4 lists below that (Cultist-Spam with Abaddon and 120 infiltrating Alpha Legion Cultists being probably no. 3), or you're not really changing anything other than the flavour of the problem.

Uh, no, not at all. Let's review the lists, shall we?

I have no idea why you decided to say "Top 30" except maybe because it helps you. Most places generally settle on top 10 and occasionally top 15. In order to include as many lists as possible, here's the top 16 (cause I found na extra):

1. Knights/CP Farm
2. Knights/CP Farm
3. Ynnari
4. Knights/CP Farm
5. Morty+Magnus Party
6. Knights/CP Farm
7. Custodes Mass Jetbikes
8. Dark Eldar
9. Blood Angels
10. Harlequinns
11. Knight/CP Farm
12. Custodes (Infantry of all things)
13. Knights/CP Farm
14. Tau
15. Adeptus Astartes
16. Daemons

So looking at this, the top lists aside from Knight/CP Farm are almost certainly Eldar of some sort or another. There were only two Chaos lists at all that could even TAKE Tzaangoer bombs. Cultist Spam, even with Abaddon, has like no presence at all. Honestly, your idea of the current meta just seems wildly off base or based on early 2018 as opposed to late 2018.

Why would you ignore evidence just because it helps your perspective lol. It's a fact that they are taking spots in the top 30 so that isn't bad at all, it helps his perspective so he stated it. What the hell is this logic that the cut off point for success has to be where you deem it lol

Uhh, you just made my argument to HIM at ME. I'm going with what is traditionally catalogue'd and kept so we can verify that these are high performing players/lists (i.e. the top). That way we can control for player error being a factor as much as possible. He's the one that just decided to use 30 as an arbitrary number.

Uhhhh no I didn't, you just didn't get my point. "What's traditionally catalogued" is also an arbitrary number, and to limit it to that when it's clear the army is still successful just beyond that limit you are setting for this tournament is absurd. The topic was whether they are successful, ignoring evidence of this success just because it doesn't fit into a top 10 isn't a sensible decision may all.

No, the topic was whether they were breaking the game, OP, in need of a fix, however you want to phrase it. Just because something is successful doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Only when it is unreasonably successful.

The traditional pull is used because that's the only one we have data on we can use to at least try and exclude player error from the equation. If you want to change that, you can't just arbitrarily add more numbers. You'd need to start cataloguing all that yourself or find someone who did/is.

No, the topic was literally "point to an army that did any good", to which Thousand Sons was given as an answer, to which you disagreed with them doing good. Nobody said they were OP yet.

The traditional pull is a representation of who got top 8 or top 16. This is not a representation of every single army that is doing good, and ones that placed multiple times in a top 30 of one of the largest competitive events of the year definitely fit that description by my measure even if they didn't break top 16. You have conflated the two, and for this topic, your limit of "the traditional pull" is entirely arbitrary.

And I'm AGAINST the change, I think it's bad, dumbs down the game, and I do not think that TSons needed a nerf. If that was what you had said I would have agreed. But what you are currently arguing is that they are not doing good, and top 30 multiple times isn't good because it's not top 16, and that's absurd, especially since they won the major just before that.

You're missing heft context. Re-reading the quote chains, it is as clear to me now as it was then that "any good" was referring to top meta performance. You need to be up there to be doing "any good" in this conversation, so no it's not crazy.

You want to add in "your measure"? Great. Make an argument for why it's trustworthy, but you weren't the original post I was responding to and your subjective measure isn't what was being discussed.

I will say it for a third time and then probably no more because if it doesn't get through after 3 it probably never will: my pull is not arbitrary. It's what is usually compiled and recorded after tournaments so that way we have a verifiela let record to consult that minimizes player error as a factor. It's the only solid data we really have.

I also didn't disagree that Thousand Son's placed in the top sometimes. My point was they didn't place there very often and the Tzaangoer bomb wasn't the primary thrust of the army getting to where it was.

still no forced mono codex for matched, still no reason for me to actualy play 40k.

VoidSempai wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

''Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins.
Until the end of the first turn, all units from your army that are wholly within your
Deployment Zone, other than Titanic units, receive the benefit of cover, even while
they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. A unit that is already receiving the
benefit of cover gains no additional benefit from this Stratagem.''

actually, is last the whole round, so you could be first player and pay 2CP, and when it comes the time for your opponent to shoot you still get your cover saves on your tanks or whatnot.

You are incorrect, sorry:


Note what it says above the strategem

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

I am bad at math, that is true. Could you explain it to me?

Having +1 save is huge on MEQ.

Even if all your enemy shooting is AP-3, you have effectively increased your wounds on the field by 25%.
This scales to 33% for AP-2, 50% for AP-1 and 100% for no AP.

Those numbers are quite something.

Yes my friends army does around 32 wounds to my army per turn, and my army has 48 wounds not counting draigo. That makes my army dead turn one. I kind of a know it, because when we didn't play at the store, but at school we had no cover giving terrain, so my dudes acted as if they had the stratagem for free.

You play mono GK. Sorry, there is no salvation for you.

VoidSempai wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

''Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins.
Until the end of the first turn, all units from your army that are wholly within your
Deployment Zone, other than Titanic units, receive the benefit of cover, even while
they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. A unit that is already receiving the
benefit of cover gains no additional benefit from this Stratagem.''

actually, is last the whole round, so you could be first player and pay 2CP, and when it comes the time for your opponent to shoot you still get your cover saves on your tanks or whatnot.

They said only the player going second has access to that strat. Going second is required to unlock it.

VoidSempai wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

''Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins.
Until the end of the first turn, all units from your army that are wholly within your
Deployment Zone, other than Titanic units, receive the benefit of cover, even while
they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. A unit that is already receiving the
benefit of cover gains no additional benefit from this Stratagem.''

actually, is last the whole round, so you could be first player and pay 2CP, and when it comes the time for your opponent to shoot you still get your cover saves on your tanks or whatnot.

It lasts until the end of the first turn, not round.

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

I am bad at math, that is true. Could you explain it to me?

Having +1 save is huge on MEQ.

Even if all your enemy shooting is AP-3, you have effectively increased your wounds on the field by 25%.
This scales to 33% for AP-2, 50% for AP-1 and 100% for no AP.

Those numbers are quite something.

Yes my friends army does around 32 wounds to my army per turn, and my army has 48 wounds not counting draigo. That makes my army dead turn one. I kind of a know it, because when we didn't play at the store, but at school we had no cover giving terrain, so my dudes acted as if they had the stratagem for free.

You play mono GK. Sorry, there is no salvation for you.

Mono-terminator GK from the sounds of thing.

ShaneMarsh wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 beir wrote:

Karol wrote:


how were elite armies buffed? Am not trolling or flaming, I do happen to play a low count army, and if I missed something in the FAQs that makes such armies better, I would like to know it, because where I play no one is going to tell me that.

The cover stratagem is, arguably, better for elite, good save armies.

If they go second. If. Prepared Positions is available only to the player who goes second. Depending on the scenario they have a +1 to go first or a 5/6th chance to go first. More instances of horde armies using the strategem rather than elite armies will be catalogued over time. It is far more of a buff for Hordes.

My Leman Russ tank has a 2+ save, so that is cool.

''Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins.
Until the end of the first turn, all units from your army that are wholly within your
Deployment Zone, other than Titanic units, receive the benefit of cover, even while
they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature. A unit that is already receiving the
benefit of cover gains no additional benefit from this Stratagem.''

actually, is last the whole round, so you could be first player and pay 2CP, and when it comes the time for your opponent to shoot you still get your cover saves on your tanks or whatnot.

You are incorrect, sorry:


Note what it says above the strategem

you're absolutely right and I'm sorry! I stand corrected! I guess in my anger I forgot basic reading skills

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:
But that is not true, cover or not the good shoting armies have enough fire power to blow up an elite army with or without cover. Just because now, one can pay 2 CP and get the cover bonus isn't going to change the amount of incoming fire. In fact it can make it higher, because before maybe some units could be out of sight, while now if someone deploys as close to the deployment as possible the whole opposing army will be able to fire on the elite army turn 1.

Math would like to have a word with you.

I am bad at math, that is true. Could you explain it to me?

Having +1 save is huge on MEQ.

Even if all your enemy shooting is AP-3, you have effectively increased your wounds on the field by 25%.
This scales to 33% for AP-2, 50% for AP-1 and 100% for no AP.

Those numbers are quite something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't be surpised to see Rhino rush lists getting a lot of steam.

Well, that is true... maybe I should try putting those 3 transports I still have lying around together, get Lukas, stuff him and 3 squads of angry Blood Claws in them and see what happens. Then see if I can get a Wolf Lord with Wulfen Stone + Saga of the Wolfkin in there somewhere as well. 29 Blood Claws with 3-5A per model on the charge at 2+ to hit and +1 to wound rolls if Lukas is near has to at least reach and kill SOMETHING.

This is okay, mistakes happen!

bananathug wrote:

I'm not sure how this refutes my point that cheap CP gets more valuable without a way to regen it unless you are agreeing that those cheap CP sources are still OP as they still have the easiest way of regening those CP (although not as powerful now).

Because there's a set value now. An IG battalion = +5. A relic/trait = +6. Previously you were looking at 10 plus extra. So that missing CP is either lost or needs to be made up by more IG battalions.

These armies will be able to keep that 3++ up through 2-3 turns even with the current cost of cp. The demise of the smash captain conversely makes that castilian even more powerful (no flying charge over screens was one of the few ways to threaten a 3++ vs shooting on a 24 wound t8 model). The change does nothing to curb the power of a meta defining model and actually makes it more powerful (or at least more invulnerable).

The top NOVA list was 20 CP. Previously Grand Strategist mathematically added 6.7 to that. Kurov's would be 2 or 3 depending on your opponent. All that is capped to 6 now.

To stand up his Castellan is now 3 CP.
The Captain needs an extra CP as well.

That makes this list come in at -6 CP from previous expectations.

Yeah, the meta defining armies with cheap infantry or quick units. My point is the change doesn't do anything to help balance the game and is a crutch for players who can't be bothered to screen their units. Not being able to come into your own deployment zone further removes the ability of units without invluns to protect themselves further stretching the meta towards resilient shoot or fast moving assault. Units which rely on deepstrike for protection (primaris inceptors) just lost 20%ish of their usefulness (going second and being able to deploy in your own deployment zone was a way to get them a turn of shooting, now they can't come in until turn 2 no matter what). Probably not the biggest deal individually but combined with the dominance of knights in the meta this just pushes the meta further in an unhealthy direction.

Time will tell.

Some other poster already mentioned putting a fort ontop of a objective so you can never take it without destroying the fort. It's a bad rule that doesn't add anything to the game and will most likely only be used to game the system in immersion breaking ways. Adds little to the game and could potentially make for some wonky interactions or situations where interactions are impossible. Not a fan.

Tournaments can apply and easy fix - forts can be next to objectives, but cover them. I doubt we'll see proliferation.

And I will continue to offer what I consider constructive criticism

I would expect no less.

It does exactly what I said it does. Removes a strategic element of "deployment." The bad terrain rules and OP shooting elements do the rest.

I disagree still. It opens the game for alternative first turn strategies that have yet to be explored.

 Xenomancers wrote:
decision making does not mean tactics. The same decisions always existed - do I take advantage position or a cover save. Now the only skill is figuring out the advantage position because you are automatically getting a cover save. Really though - that possition is always going to be ether as close as possible or as far away as possible depending on your army. Now your army basically deploys itself.

Sometimes, I wish I played in Xenomancers' meta where you don't need to have any skill at all to win games of 40k and there are no real decisions to be made. Then I realize that this meta only exists in fantasy strawman land.

Are you still restricted from movement of any kind after Deep Strike (i.e., Warp Time, or Swarmlords Hive Commander)? I don't remember where that previous ruling was listed, and can't seem to find whether it was changed?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Thing is, the damage in current 40k is so high that for an assault unit to be viable it either needs to be able to get into CC reliably in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) or be tanky as hell. If it is neither the best it can do is serve as a Distraction Carnifex.

Thing is, cc is so devastating, that any CC army getting in T1 (or the same turn it comes out of Deepstrike) wins the game. If there's no way for the opponent to make a play to potentially deny it, there's no game.

It's a broader problem of GW upping the damage output of armies with every Codex far more significantly than the damage-mitigation/defensive abilities. It's a structural issue outside of CC.

CC devastating. I wish.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Are you still restricted from movement of any kind after Deep Strike (i.e., Warp Time, or Swarmlords Hive Commander)? I don't remember where that previous ruling was listed, and can't seem to find whether it was changed?

Yes. BRB FAQ

 mokoshkana wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Are you still restricted from movement of any kind after Deep Strike (i.e., Warp Time, or Swarmlords Hive Commander)? I don't remember where that previous ruling was listed, and can't seem to find whether it was changed?

Yes. BRB FAQ

Found it. Nvm.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

bananathug wrote:

I'm not sure how this refutes my point that cheap CP gets more valuable without a way to regen it unless you are agreeing that those cheap CP sources are still OP as they still have the easiest way of regening those CP (although not as powerful now).

Because there's a set value now. An IG battalion = +5. A relic/trait = +6. Previously you were looking at 10 plus extra. So that missing CP is either lost or needs to be made up by more IG battalions.

These armies will be able to keep that 3++ up through 2-3 turns even with the current cost of cp. The demise of the smash captain conversely makes that castilian even more powerful (no flying charge over screens was one of the few ways to threaten a 3++ vs shooting on a 24 wound t8 model). The change does nothing to curb the power of a meta defining model and actually makes it more powerful (or at least more invulnerable).

The top NOVA list was 20 CP. Previously Grand Strategist mathematically added 6.7 to that. Kurov's would be 2 or 3 depending on your opponent. All that is capped to 6 now.

To stand up his Castellan is now 3 CP.
The Captain needs an extra CP as well.

That makes this list come in at -6 CP from previous expectations.

It's MUCH worse. 20 CP with Grand strategist alone is 30 CP. Assuming 4 Cps coming from Kurov's aquila over the first 2 turns, this becomes 36 CPs. If he also had the veritas vitae this was 43 CPs on average (assuming 2 CPs as the average stratagem cost).
Now that list by turn 2 will be 22 CPs, with an expected increase of expended CPs of 3.

That list is now down 24 CPs.

Edit: 25, sorry.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Are you still restricted from movement of any kind after Deep Strike (i.e., Warp Time, or Swarmlords Hive Commander)? I don't remember where that previous ruling was listed, and can't seem to find whether it was changed?

You are. They didn't change that ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

bananathug wrote:

I'm not sure how this refutes my point that cheap CP gets more valuable without a way to regen it unless you are agreeing that those cheap CP sources are still OP as they still have the easiest way of regening those CP (although not as powerful now).

Because there's a set value now. An IG battalion = +5. A relic/trait = +6. Previously you were looking at 10 plus extra. So that missing CP is either lost or needs to be made up by more IG battalions.

These armies will be able to keep that 3++ up through 2-3 turns even with the current cost of cp. The demise of the smash captain conversely makes that castilian even more powerful (no flying charge over screens was one of the few ways to threaten a 3++ vs shooting on a 24 wound t8 model). The change does nothing to curb the power of a meta defining model and actually makes it more powerful (or at least more invulnerable).

The top NOVA list was 20 CP. Previously Grand Strategist mathematically added 6.7 to that. Kurov's would be 2 or 3 depending on your opponent. All that is capped to 6 now.

To stand up his Castellan is now 3 CP.
The Captain needs an extra CP as well.

That makes this list come in at -6 CP from previous expectations.

It's MUCH worse. 20 CP with Grand strategist alone is 30 CP. Assuming 4 Cps coming from Kurov's aquila over the first 2 turns, this becomes 36 CPs. If he also had the veritas vitae this was 43 CPs on average (assuming 2 CPs as the average stratagem cost).
Now that list by turn 2 will be 22 CPs, with an expected increase of expended CPs of 3.

That list is now down 24 CPs.

Yup, the CP farm is more like a CP garden now.

Spoletta wrote:


It's MUCH worse. 20 CP with Grand strategist alone is 30 CP. Assuming 4 Cps coming from Kurov's aquila over the first 2 turns, this becomes 36 CPs. If he also had the veritas vitae this was 43 CPs on average (assuming 2 CPs as the average stratagem cost).
Now that list by turn 2 will be 22 CPs, with an expected increase of expended CPs of 3.

That list is now down 24 CPs.

Grand Strategist is only 33% though? Forgot about Veritas.

A note on Raven Guard - this still doesn't prevent you from moving first turn so it means you move up 9" and use jump packs for 12" and now you're 3" from the front lines. If you didn't get first then you're on a 2+ cover save.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


It's MUCH worse. 20 CP with Grand strategist alone is 30 CP. Assuming 4 Cps coming from Kurov's aquila over the first 2 turns, this becomes 36 CPs. If he also had the veritas vitae this was 43 CPs on average (assuming 2 CPs as the average stratagem cost).
Now that list by turn 2 will be 22 CPs, with an expected increase of expended CPs of 3.

That list is now down 24 CPs.

Grand Strategist is only 33% though? Forgot about Veritas.

A note on Raven Guard - this still doesn't prevent you from moving first turn so it means you move up 9" and use jump packs for 12" and now you're 3" from the front lines. If you didn't get first then you're on a 2+ cover save.

Only units still inside your deployment zone can get that cover save, so you better land in actual cover instead.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


It's MUCH worse. 20 CP with Grand strategist alone is 30 CP. Assuming 4 Cps coming from Kurov's aquila over the first 2 turns, this becomes 36 CPs. If he also had the veritas vitae this was 43 CPs on average (assuming 2 CPs as the average stratagem cost).
Now that list by turn 2 will be 22 CPs, with an expected increase of expended CPs of 3.

That list is now down 24 CPs.

Grand Strategist is only 33% though? Forgot about Veritas.

A note on Raven Guard - this still doesn't prevent you from moving first turn so it means you move up 9" and use jump packs for 12" and now you're 3" from the front lines. If you didn't get first then you're on a 2+ cover save.

Yes, but the 33% recovered can also generate more CPs, and those CPs can generate more CPs. Mathematically this equals +50%.

bananathug wrote:

These armies will be able to keep that 3++ up through 2-3 turns even with the current cost of cp. The demise of the smash captain conversely makes that castilian even more powerful (no flying charge over screens was one of the few ways to threaten a 3++ vs shooting on a 24 wound t8 model). The change does nothing to curb the power of a meta defining model and actually makes it more powerful (or at least more invulnerable).
.

Then they don't have raven strategem. Or don't have slamquinus. 2 bat and lone raven castellan you can power both strategem once. That's it. Change ig to brigade and 2 turn max. To get both 3 turn requires either 2 ig brigade(no slamquinus) or ba brigade(good luck with points)

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Only units still inside your deployment zone can get that cover save, so you better land in actual cover instead.

Good point.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
GSC are at least stuck this way till 2019 or later most likely.

They're book was already announced. They're coming out before the end of the year.

The faq says it's in development. Which if true means it can't come this year(especially as gw doesn't release codexes in december). Also they didn't rannounce it in same level as say they did orks and sw.

It's not coming this year

Spoletta wrote:


Yes, but the 33% recovered can also generate more CPs, and those CPs can generate more CPs. Mathematically this equals +50%.

Gotcha