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Leviathan, as-in Nids? Yeah if you have 3+ save Monsters having Cover turn 1 regardless of actually being in cover would be pretty amazing. But that fits my earily comment about armies with lots of Tanks
Gribblies, not so much. Having a 6+ turn into a 5+ is pretty meh, especially whin many armies have loads of AP -1 or -2.

I play Eldar, and this strat really helps me if I don't get first turn, but at the same time, it takes away 2CPs that are crucial for other things. My list only ever have 9-10CPs and what these changes guarantee is that I will never use the Webway strat ever again.

-

I like the cover strat. It tones down shoots armies a bit when they go first. As I’m not playing shoots armies per se this is good news.

 Galef wrote:
Leviathan, as-in Nids? Yeah if you have 3+ save Monsters having Cover turn 1 regardless of actually being in cover would be pretty amazing. But that fits my earily comment about armies with lots of Tanks
Gribblies, not so much. Having a 6+ turn into a 5+ is pretty meh, especially whin many armies have loads of AP -1 or -2.

I play Eldar, and this strat really helps me if I don't get first turn, but at the same time, it takes away 2CPs that are crucial for other things. My list only ever have 9-10CPs and what these changes guarantee is that I will never use the Webway strat ever again.

-

But but...my Black Guardians of Ulthwe bomb. :(

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
To be fair, the change to Fly had nothing to do with "realism" and everything to do with disallowing a specific advantage that unit had.
Sometimes those rules are required for a fair game (not saying Flying charges were game breaking by any means, just that sometimes rules don't make fluff-sense because game-balance is more important)

I think it's clear they are going after smash captains with this rule. It also ruins custodes biker stratagem as they can't even charge over their own units. I'd say those were their specific targets. It would have been pretty easy to target those 2 units without making such absurd rules.

Keep in mind - I am normally on the receiving end of this stuff. I think this is a pretty poor change.

It also nerfs the 20 attack jump pack Rune Priest, and Shining Spears.

Yeah it does - there is no doubting that. Wrong way to do it though. Spears are undercosted and their psychic powers need some twerking (range and psychic denial seem to be the issue there) - IDK what you are talking about RP - They can only take 3 max anyways. All JP units are nerfed too.

Space Wolves have a psychic power that gives the caster 6 extra CC attacks with a profile of S5 AP-3 D1. Yeah, it's good but you first have to manifest it to even use it, which is a little over 50% with WC7. Then of course, it must not be denied either. All in all the jump-RP is a strong and versatile unit (it can fulfill both the role of support and squishy-support-character assassin at the same time) but I don't see how it's OP. Can't DS before T2 and has no way to increase charge reliability, if not DS-ing has to survive until it hits CC, and even if you give it Armor of Russ it's still just T4 W4 with a 3+/4++. And again, before it can get those 6 extra attacks it still has to manifest the psychic power along with all the normal restrictions on actually getting into CC.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I honestly see the situation much brigther now for CC armies.

If i go first no problem, i will have to weather only one turn of firing then it will be my turn 2 and the enemy is out of shooting phases.

If i go second, i will weather one shooting phase with a bonus and his screens will not be protected.

A big improvement. Surely it rewards the mid/close range armies which do not bank on having first turn.

I think you over estimate what +1 save can really do. Most armies already know how to utilize cover as-is, so this Strat doesn't really do much except help armies that have lots of hard-to-hide tanks and Flyers, which are typically part of gunline armies.
Don't get me wrong, I like the strat, but it helps gunline armies a bit more than melee armies.

-

It helps hordes who can't fit their units into cover easilly as well. And it helps transports a lot which were basically neglected.

It actually helps my Custodes Jetbikes too, of all things. Now they can sit under a -1 to Hit Banner and have a 1+ Armor Save.

The major changes will be in CA so people have a reason to buy it. Although, if it's like the last ine I'll just skip it again.

Can someone explain the demon summon thingy. Looks cool andnkinda makes me want to do a nurgle knight. XD

I really don't think that cover stratagem is such a big deal, especially for more elite armies. If you're playing with even semi-decent amount of terrain, it is not difficult to place all your guys in cover. So it mostly helps guardsmen hordes, really...

 lolman1c wrote:
The major changes will be in CA so people have a reason to buy it. Although, if it's like the last ine I'll just skip it again.

I think some people are getting their expectations for Chapter Approved too high. It won't fix the current balance issues anywhere near as much as most people are hoping for. It could be used to give factions like Grey Knights some much needed love, but keep in mind that they have to give love (read buffs) to all factions so that people will buy it. You can balance them differently, but the end result isn't what most people are hoping for.

Pandabeer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
To be fair, the change to Fly had nothing to do with "realism" and everything to do with disallowing a specific advantage that unit had.
Sometimes those rules are required for a fair game (not saying Flying charges were game breaking by any means, just that sometimes rules don't make fluff-sense because game-balance is more important)

I think it's clear they are going after smash captains with this rule. It also ruins custodes biker stratagem as they can't even charge over their own units. I'd say those were their specific targets. It would have been pretty easy to target those 2 units without making such absurd rules.

Keep in mind - I am normally on the receiving end of this stuff. I think this is a pretty poor change.

It also nerfs the 20 attack jump pack Rune Priest, and Shining Spears.

Yeah it does - there is no doubting that. Wrong way to do it though. Spears are undercosted and their psychic powers need some twerking (range and psychic denial seem to be the issue there) - IDK what you are talking about RP - They can only take 3 max anyways. All JP units are nerfed too.

Space Wolves have a psychic power that gives the caster 6 extra CC attacks with a profile of S5 AP-3 D1. Yeah, it's good but you first have to manifest it to even use it, which is a little over 50% with WC7. Then of course, it must not be denied either. All in all the jump-RP is a strong and versatile unit (it can fulfill both the role of support and squishy-support-character assassin at the same time) but I don't see how it's OP. Can't DS before T2 and has no way to increase charge reliability, if not DS-ing has to survive until it hits CC, and even if you give it Armor of Russ it's still just T4 W4 with a 3+/4++. And again, before it can get those 6 extra attacks it still has to manifest the psychic power along with all the normal restrictions on actually getting into CC.

You forgot that Space Wolves can Heroically Intervene 6" and GW confirmed you can HI against units that don't charge as well. So if anyone ends their turn within 6" of that RP he can auto-engage them from behind other units, behind LOS blocking terrain and even from behind a screen of other models just by taking a JP. Nerfing Fly means that this combo isn't nearly as broken as it was.

When looking in on tournaments, we noticed that the way the Fly keyword interacts with charges was resulting in some cases where Assault Marines and other flying units could stand above (or below) their foes and make 0″ charges. Now, even if you can fly, you’ll have to measure vertically like everyone else when you’re getting stuck into close combat.

Nowhere here does it say you can't still fly. You just have to measure distance like others. Hardly a total nerf.

Darsath wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
The major changes will be in CA so people have a reason to buy it. Although, if it's like the last ine I'll just skip it again.

I think some people are getting their expectations for Chapter Approved too high. It won't fix the current balance issues anywhere near as much as most people are hoping for. It could be used to give factions like Grey Knights some much needed love, but keep in mind that they have to give love (read buffs) to all factions so that people will buy it. You can balance them differently, but the end result isn't what most people are hoping for.

There was quite a fair number of nerfs in the last CA and none of the buffs were over done, sooo....

Camjo wrote:

When looking in on tournaments, we noticed that the way the Fly keyword interacts with charges was resulting in some cases where Assault Marines and other flying units could stand above (or below) their foes and make 0″ charges. Now, even if you can fly, you’ll have to measure vertically like everyone else when you’re getting stuck into close combat.

no where here does it say you can't still fly. You just have to measure distance like others. Hardly a total nerf.

You can't fly outside of the movement phase. No jumping over stuff or up and down buildings to charge or HI.

Suzuteo wrote:
I've never been so pissed at Games Workshop as I am now. I recently bought a pair of Drills and converted some Fulgurites. And then, out of the blue, this massive nerf to infiltration? What the hell? Are AdMech and Alpha Legion so dangerous that we needed to have a core mechanic pulled out from under us?

Agreed. Now the timing makes it too risky and if you face scouts squads then concealed positions completely invalidates it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Camjo wrote:

When looking in on tournaments, we noticed that the way the Fly keyword interacts with charges was resulting in some cases where Assault Marines and other flying units could stand above (or below) their foes and make 0″ charges. Now, even if you can fly, you’ll have to measure vertically like everyone else when you’re getting stuck into close combat.

no where here does it say you can't still fly. You just have to measure distance like others. Hardly a total nerf.

You can't fly outside of the movement phase. No jumping over stuff or up and down buildings to charge or HI.

is that written elsewhere? You should still be able to ignore terrain and units

Camjo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Camjo wrote:

When looking in on tournaments, we noticed that the way the Fly keyword interacts with charges was resulting in some cases where Assault Marines and other flying units could stand above (or below) their foes and make 0″ charges. Now, even if you can fly, you’ll have to measure vertically like everyone else when you’re getting stuck into close combat.

no where here does it say you can't still fly. You just have to measure distance like others. Hardly a total nerf.

You can't fly outside of the movement phase. No jumping over stuff or up and down buildings to charge or HI.

is that written elsewhere?

It's in the change for the Fly keyword. It only works like that in the movement phase.

 Galef wrote:
Leviathan, as-in Nids? Yeah if you have 3+ save Monsters having Cover turn 1 regardless of actually being in cover would be pretty amazing. But that fits my earily comment about armies with lots of Tanks
Gribblies, not so much. Having a 6+ turn into a 5+ is pretty meh, especially whin many armies have loads of AP -1 or -2.

I play Eldar, and this strat really helps me if I don't get first turn, but at the same time, it takes away 2CPs that are crucial for other things. My list only ever have 9-10CPs and what these changes guarantee is that I will never use the Webway strat ever again.

-

So IGs having a 5+ save all this time was perfectly fine and all those whining was for nothing? 5+ on gribblies is huge.

4+ save Guardsmen intensifies.

Darsath wrote:
4+ save Guardsmen intensifies.

3+ save Scions.

2+ save Sisters of Battle/Silence.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
To be fair, the change to Fly had nothing to do with "realism" and everything to do with disallowing a specific advantage that unit had.
Sometimes those rules are required for a fair game (not saying Flying charges were game breaking by any means, just that sometimes rules don't make fluff-sense because game-balance is more important)

I think it's clear they are going after smash captains with this rule. It also ruins custodes biker stratagem as they can't even charge over their own units. I'd say those were their specific targets. It would have been pretty easy to target those 2 units without making such absurd rules.

Keep in mind - I am normally on the receiving end of this stuff. I think this is a pretty poor change.

It also nerfs the 20 attack jump pack Rune Priest, and Shining Spears.

Yeah it does - there is no doubting that. Wrong way to do it though. Spears are undercosted and their psychic powers need some twerking (range and psychic denial seem to be the issue there) - IDK what you are talking about RP - They can only take 3 max anyways. All JP units are nerfed too.

Space Wolves have a psychic power that gives the caster 6 extra CC attacks with a profile of S5 AP-3 D1. Yeah, it's good but you first have to manifest it to even use it, which is a little over 50% with WC7. Then of course, it must not be denied either. All in all the jump-RP is a strong and versatile unit (it can fulfill both the role of support and squishy-support-character assassin at the same time) but I don't see how it's OP. Can't DS before T2 and has no way to increase charge reliability, if not DS-ing has to survive until it hits CC, and even if you give it Armor of Russ it's still just T4 W4 with a 3+/4++. And again, before it can get those 6 extra attacks it still has to manifest the psychic power along with all the normal restrictions on actually getting into CC.

You forgot that Space Wolves can Heroically Intervene 6" and GW confirmed you can HI against units that don't charge as well. So if anyone ends their turn within 6" of that RP he can auto-engage them from behind other units, behind LOS blocking terrain and even from behind a screen of other models just by taking a JP. Nerfing Fly means that this combo isn't nearly as broken as it was.

You mean ending a move within 6" of my RP and not being in any CC either? If that's the case that's the stupid rule, not the Jump pack RP with psychic wolves. It makes no sense whatsoever and if I tried to pull that gak at my FLGS they'd probably kick me out of the door even if I tell them GW said that's official because they wouldn't believe me.

Pandabeer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
To be fair, the change to Fly had nothing to do with "realism" and everything to do with disallowing a specific advantage that unit had.
Sometimes those rules are required for a fair game (not saying Flying charges were game breaking by any means, just that sometimes rules don't make fluff-sense because game-balance is more important)

I think it's clear they are going after smash captains with this rule. It also ruins custodes biker stratagem as they can't even charge over their own units. I'd say those were their specific targets. It would have been pretty easy to target those 2 units without making such absurd rules.

Keep in mind - I am normally on the receiving end of this stuff. I think this is a pretty poor change.

It also nerfs the 20 attack jump pack Rune Priest, and Shining Spears.

Yeah it does - there is no doubting that. Wrong way to do it though. Spears are undercosted and their psychic powers need some twerking (range and psychic denial seem to be the issue there) - IDK what you are talking about RP - They can only take 3 max anyways. All JP units are nerfed too.

Space Wolves have a psychic power that gives the caster 6 extra CC attacks with a profile of S5 AP-3 D1. Yeah, it's good but you first have to manifest it to even use it, which is a little over 50% with WC7. Then of course, it must not be denied either. All in all the jump-RP is a strong and versatile unit (it can fulfill both the role of support and squishy-support-character assassin at the same time) but I don't see how it's OP. Can't DS before T2 and has no way to increase charge reliability, if not DS-ing has to survive until it hits CC, and even if you give it Armor of Russ it's still just T4 W4 with a 3+/4++. And again, before it can get those 6 extra attacks it still has to manifest the psychic power along with all the normal restrictions on actually getting into CC.

You forgot that Space Wolves can Heroically Intervene 6" and GW confirmed you can HI against units that don't charge as well. So if anyone ends their turn within 6" of that RP he can auto-engage them from behind other units, behind LOS blocking terrain and even from behind a screen of other models just by taking a JP. Nerfing Fly means that this combo isn't nearly as broken as it was.

You mean ending a move within 6" of my RP and not being in any CC either? If that's the case that's the stupid rule, not the Jump pack RP with psychic wolves. It makes no sense whatsoever and if I tried to pull that gak at my FLGS they'd probably kick me out of the door even if I tell them GW said that's official because they wouldn't believe me.

It's fine on it's own. The issue with the RP starts when you take that and stack in him having a Jump Pack and that power. He turns into a blender that can't even be Overwatched when he slams into his target. So yeah, it's a good change for the game.

Spoletta wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Leviathan, as-in Nids? Yeah if you have 3+ save Monsters having Cover turn 1 regardless of actually being in cover would be pretty amazing. But that fits my earily comment about armies with lots of Tanks
Gribblies, not so much. Having a 6+ turn into a 5+ is pretty meh, especially whin many armies have loads of AP -1 or -2.

I play Eldar, and this strat really helps me if I don't get first turn, but at the same time, it takes away 2CPs that are crucial for other things. My list only ever have 9-10CPs and what these changes guarantee is that I will never use the Webway strat ever again.

-

So IGs having a 5+ save all this time was perfectly fine and all those whining was for nothing? 5+ on gribblies is huge.

It certainly helps against some armies, but Armies like Eldar and Necrons, whose basic weaponry have some form of AP, cover doesn't really do much for Hordes.
Where it help is on things that already have decent saves (3+ or better) that cannot easily hide (so vehicles and monsters), however those same armies (Eldar and Necrons) have Ap-4 and AP-5 that they are already using against those targets.
And 8+ save going to a 7+ is still no save at all. All this really does is make more potential for 6+ saves. Is that worth 2Cps? Maybe, maybe not

It's a good strat, but I really don't see it shifting the meta enough away from gunlines, especially since it also helps gunlines
The issue with Guard having 5+ is that they are super cheap and hard to shift due their being so, so many bodies.

-

 Valkyrie wrote:
Annoyed that they've thrown RG in with the changes to pre-game deep-strikes, they were probably benefitting the least from it.

well RG where actually useful, can't have that people might switch less to xenos after starting with marines!

 Galef wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Leviathan, as-in Nids? Yeah if you have 3+ save Monsters having Cover turn 1 regardless of actually being in cover would be pretty amazing. But that fits my earily comment about armies with lots of Tanks
Gribblies, not so much. Having a 6+ turn into a 5+ is pretty meh, especially whin many armies have loads of AP -1 or -2.

I play Eldar, and this strat really helps me if I don't get first turn, but at the same time, it takes away 2CPs that are crucial for other things. My list only ever have 9-10CPs and what these changes guarantee is that I will never use the Webway strat ever again.

-

So IGs having a 5+ save all this time was perfectly fine and all those whining was for nothing? 5+ on gribblies is huge.

It certainly helps against some armies, but Armies like Eldar and Necrons, whose basic weaponry have some form of AP, cover doesn't really do much for Hordes.
Where it help is on things that already have decent saves (3+ or better) that cannot easily hide (so vehicles and monsters), however those same armies (Eldar and Necrons) have Ap-4 and AP-5 that they are already using against those targets.
And 8+ save going to a 7+ is still no save at all. All this really does is make more potential for 6+ saves. Is that worth 2Cps? Maybe, maybe not

It's a good strat, but I really don't see it shifting the meta enough away from gunlines, especially since it also helps gunlines
The issue with Guard having 5+ is that they are super cheap and hard to shift due their being so, so many bodies.-

It does reduce how much that AP impacts their saves, and it makes Guard transports better.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
To be fair, the change to Fly had nothing to do with "realism" and everything to do with disallowing a specific advantage that unit had.
Sometimes those rules are required for a fair game (not saying Flying charges were game breaking by any means, just that sometimes rules don't make fluff-sense because game-balance is more important)

I think it's clear they are going after smash captains with this rule. It also ruins custodes biker stratagem as they can't even charge over their own units. I'd say those were their specific targets. It would have been pretty easy to target those 2 units without making such absurd rules.

Keep in mind - I am normally on the receiving end of this stuff. I think this is a pretty poor change.

It also nerfs the 20 attack jump pack Rune Priest, and Shining Spears.

Yeah it does - there is no doubting that. Wrong way to do it though. Spears are undercosted and their psychic powers need some twerking (range and psychic denial seem to be the issue there) - IDK what you are talking about RP - They can only take 3 max anyways. All JP units are nerfed too.

Space Wolves have a psychic power that gives the caster 6 extra CC attacks with a profile of S5 AP-3 D1. Yeah, it's good but you first have to manifest it to even use it, which is a little over 50% with WC7. Then of course, it must not be denied either. All in all the jump-RP is a strong and versatile unit (it can fulfill both the role of support and squishy-support-character assassin at the same time) but I don't see how it's OP. Can't DS before T2 and has no way to increase charge reliability, if not DS-ing has to survive until it hits CC, and even if you give it Armor of Russ it's still just T4 W4 with a 3+/4++. And again, before it can get those 6 extra attacks it still has to manifest the psychic power along with all the normal restrictions on actually getting into CC.

You forgot that Space Wolves can Heroically Intervene 6" and GW confirmed you can HI against units that don't charge as well. So if anyone ends their turn within 6" of that RP he can auto-engage them from behind other units, behind LOS blocking terrain and even from behind a screen of other models just by taking a JP. Nerfing Fly means that this combo isn't nearly as broken as it was.

You mean ending a move within 6" of my RP and not being in any CC either? If that's the case that's the stupid rule, not the Jump pack RP with psychic wolves. It makes no sense whatsoever and if I tried to pull that gak at my FLGS they'd probably kick me out of the door even if I tell them GW said that's official because they wouldn't believe me.

It's fine on it's own. The issue with the RP starts when you take that and stack in him having a Jump Pack and that power. He turns into a blender that can't even be Overwatched when he slams into his target. So yeah, it's a good change for the game.

It's not because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and needlessly overcomplicates things. I, and I think with me most players, assumed you can only HI if one of your own units within HI distance gets charged. Which would be perfectly in line with the rule name. Heroic commander comes to the aid of his subjects that get charged and are threatened to be brutally slaughtered by the hated enemy. HI as you describe it is just a silly and complicated way to circumvent overwatch and create no-go zones for the enemy. Abuseable by high level players, unuseable by casuals who just want to play a game and don't bother so much with inchmongering. On the other hand, disallowing fly in the charge phase hits casual players with assault armies like a sledgehammer.

I also think it was very wise of GW to exclude TITANIC units from the strat. No one needs 2+ armour Knights outside cover.

Still holding my breath for those points changes in CA. Fingers crossed that the WK drops about 100pts
They've already paid their penance for 7th edition.

-

What are poor pure Blood Angels to do?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Camjo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Camjo wrote:

When looking in on tournaments, we noticed that the way the Fly keyword interacts with charges was resulting in some cases where Assault Marines and other flying units could stand above (or below) their foes and make 0″ charges. Now, even if you can fly, you’ll have to measure vertically like everyone else when you’re getting stuck into close combat.

no where here does it say you can't still fly. You just have to measure distance like others. Hardly a total nerf.

You can't fly outside of the movement phase. No jumping over stuff or up and down buildings to charge or HI.

is that written elsewhere?

It's in the change for the Fly keyword. It only works like that in the movement phase.

thanks. I hadn't seen the rules errata.

Pandabeer wrote:
It's not because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and needlessly overcomplicates things. I, and I think with me most players, assumed you can only HI if one of your own units within HI distance gets charged. Which would be perfectly in line with the rule name. Heroic commander comes to the aid of his subjects that get charged and are threatened to be brutally slaughtered by the hated enemy. HI as you describe it is just a silly and complicated way to prevent overwatch and create no-go zones for the enemy. Abuseable by high level players, unuseable by casuals who just want to play a game and don't bother so much with inchmongering. On the other hand, disallowing fly in the charge phase hits casual players with assault armies like a sledgehammer.

It was one of a number of problems that we had in the game.

YES, it hurts Assault Marines, but seeing as they sucked even with the ability to hop units with variants of them being seen as barely any better, something needs to be done to the game other than leaving in a rule that was heavily abused in ways that weren't intended.

 Galef wrote:
I also think it was very wise of GW to exclude TITANIC units from the strat. No one needs 2+ armour Knights outside cover.

Still holding my breath for those points changes in CA. Fingers crossed that the WK drops about 100pts
They've already paid their penance for 7th edition.

-

I'd rather have more powerful than cheaper Wraithknights. Those things are supposed to be big, scary, rare and expensive not a part of every Eldar hunting party.

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I also think it was very wise of GW to exclude TITANIC units from the strat. No one needs 2+ armour Knights outside cover.

Still holding my breath for those points changes in CA. Fingers crossed that the WK drops about 100pts
They've already paid their penance for 7th edition.

-

I'd rather have more powerful than cheaper Wraithknights. Those things are supposed to be big, scary, rare and expensive not a part of every Eldar hunting party.

Considering it requires Eldar twins and you have to smother one of them, yeah it should be rarer than rare. Like rarer than a Dark Eldar with an understanding of restraint.