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 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

except it's not...... by tournament dominance your are talking about the loyal 32 that surely doesn't show IG dominance it shows the dominance of soup. Actually, mono guard often finished behind mono factions like tau that we never hear complaints about.

No. To show dominance of the soup, you should see plenty of Imperial soups without Guard, but you really don't. Sure, Guard + certain specific exceptional allied units is better than mono-Guard, but mono-Guard is better than any guardless Imperial soups (and even many soups with Guard.) There is no way around the fact that Infantry squads and company commanders are just too good for their points, soup or no soup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well you first have to understand the main reason the "CP battery" is so good is because it is under-costed. As a result it creates an unfair amount of command points. The solution is simple - 5 point guardsmen - 40 point CC.

You see guard right now because it is the obvious choice (when all you need to do is provide CP you are always going to choose the cheapest option plus the option that even with the new "nuke" gives you an additional 6 CP per game) make every guardsmen 10000points you will still have every top army be soup it will just use the new FOTM build and you will have solved nothing.

No - gaurd will stick around in soup until they do something about it to make it less OP.

Remember conscripts during the index? We had 3 stratagems...they were spammed and dominated tournaments. It was the same thing then as now expect it's infantry squads and they are even more valuable now because of command points/stratagems.

I said it then. "great now people can just start spamming OP infantry squads" and look what happened.

Seriously guys - before everything else - the points you pay for a unit is the most important issue in balance. If you fixed the points per stats issue accross the board - you'd fix 90% of the issues in the game just like that.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can we stop denying obvious stuff man. It's been debated to death. Infantry and CC are OP. There is no question they are not OP.

Please explain how CC is OP (and by CC, I assume you mean close combat)

Asmodios wrote:

You see guard right now because it is the obvious choice (when all you need to do is provide CP you are always going to choose the cheapest option plus the option that even with the new "nuke" gives you an additional 6 CP per game) make every guardsmen 10000points you will still have every top army be soup it will just use the new FOTM build and you will have solved nothing.

Yes we have, we have solved Guard being OP. If the ability to generate CP is tied to the troops (a questionable choice, but I think we're stuck with it) then troops that are best at generating CP need to be worse otherwise. Then at least you have to face the choice of getting bad troops with a lot of CP or good troops with less CP. Currently the guard can have the best of the both worlds, and that's just not fair.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No - gaurd will stick around in soup until they do something about it to make it less OP.

Remember conscripts during the index? We had 3 stratagems...they were spammed and dominated tournaments. It was the same thing then as now expect it's infantry squads and they are even more valuable now because of command points/stratagems.

I said it then. "great now people can just start spamming OP infantry squads" and look what happened.

Seriously guys - before everything else - the points you pay for a unit is the most important issue in balance. If you fixed the points per stats issue accross the board - you'd fix 90% of the issues in the game just like that.

What your saying just proves exactly what im saying.
>zomg conscripts are broken nuke them (just for the recored i did believe they were broken with moral immunity)
>eveyone switches to infantry squads (next cheapest thing)
>Zomg infantry squads are broken nuke them
>everyone will switch to the next cheapest unit
>Zomg unit x is broken nuke it
This will go on and on and on and on making mono builds weeker for ever codex that gets nukes while barely affecting soup

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can we stop denying obvious stuff man. It's been debated to death. Infantry and CC are OP. There is no question they are not OP.

Please explain how CC is OP (and by CC, I assume you mean close combat)

Company comander.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

You see guard right now because it is the obvious choice (when all you need to do is provide CP you are always going to choose the cheapest option plus the option that even with the new "nuke" gives you an additional 6 CP per game) make every guardsmen 10000points you will still have every top army be soup it will just use the new FOTM build and you will have solved nothing.

Yes we have, we have solved Guard being OP. If the ability to generate CP is tied to the troops (a questionable choice, but I think we're stuck with it) then troops that are best at generating CP need to be worse otherwise. Then at least you have to face the choice of getting bad troops with a lot of CP or good troops with less CP. Currently the guard can have the best of the both worlds, and that's just not fair.

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I prefer detachments requiring a minimum amount of points to get any CP out of them, in response to battery.

Minimum 100 points per command point to get the benefit. So a brigade awards its CP if you spend 1200. A battalion awards its CP if you spend 500.

That doesn't change the fact that a 500 point Battalion of guard is still auto take for most armies. They need a point increase. Mono or soup isn't even an argument. They need an increase regardless.

At that point why don't you just assign CP by points and skip the book keeping?

Have a grid for points and faction/s

 Xenomancers wrote:
Agressors are the best out of all of them. Hellblasters and inceptors are just too expensive for what they do - AKA - killing themselves. Reivers are just intercessors -1. Plus a primaris brigade is already bringing 30 intercessors (which is the base of most of my Ultra marine armies)

Don't agree RE: Hellblasters and Inceptors. These guys are great, and really shine in Deathwatch.

For instance, when you deep strike a squad of Hellblasters that also has ablative wounds, and an Inceptor so they can fall back and shoot?

In other armies, they're still solid, 2W 3+ is actually fairly durable overall, in a general sense. Even more so with prepared positions - which is an amazing stratagem for marine players.

Space Wolves also have the ability to deep strike Hellblasters, which immediately improves their value, too.

All of the primaris stuff is not as bad as people claim it is.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can we stop denying obvious stuff man. It's been debated to death. Infantry and CC are OP. There is no question they are not OP.

Please explain how CC is OP (and by CC, I assume you mean close combat)

Company comander.

That makes way more sense haha. I was really interested in how someone would try to paint close combat armies/units as being overpowered. Apologies for the confusion.

Company Commanders should easily be 60 points per. Primaris Psykers should be more expensive than a Librarian as they have overall better powers.

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No - gaurd will stick around in soup until they do something about it to make it less OP.

Remember conscripts during the index? We had 3 stratagems...they were spammed and dominated tournaments. It was the same thing then as now expect it's infantry squads and they are even more valuable now because of command points/stratagems.

I said it then. "great now people can just start spamming OP infantry squads" and look what happened.

Seriously guys - before everything else - the points you pay for a unit is the most important issue in balance. If you fixed the points per stats issue accross the board - you'd fix 90% of the issues in the game just like that.

What your saying just proves exactly what im saying.
>zomg conscripts are broken nuke them (just for the recored i did believe they were broken with moral immunity)
>eveyone switches to infantry squads (next cheapest thing)
>Zomg infantry squads are broken nuke them
>everyone will switch to the next cheapest unit
>Zomg unit x is broken nuke it
This will go on and on and on and on making mono builds weeker for ever codex that gets nukes while barely affecting soup

You are missing the absolute best part about all of this. Conscripts were OP at 3 points and went to 4 points...the same cost as infantry. Infantry are flat out superior to conscripts and cost the same - if that doesn't prove something is wrong what does? I agree the solution should not be to nerf something into oblivion. Conscripts did not need to be nuked like that - just going up in points with a modification to how they take orders would have been fine - the ability to be fearless was not really their issue (though it is quite stupid). Simultaneously infantry should have gone to 5 points.

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

Really this...
Change a Castellan to a shadowsword / or a bane hammer / or even a baneblade / or 3 command russ
and take orgryns or scions or artillery in place of smash captains

That list beats most of the same armies - it's really only at risk of facing the castellan itself. FFS that lists wins tournaments already.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

ZOMG they can beat 99% of soup builds.... finishes behind tau at most tournaments.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

Really this...
Change a Castellan to a shadowsword / or a bane hammer / or even a baneblade / or 3 command russ
and take orgryns or scions or artillery in place of smash captains

That list beats most of the same armies - it's really only at risk of facing the castellan itself. FFS that lists wins tournaments already.

That list does not win tournaments lol maybe 1 in 100 or your local RTT but no real tournaments. The data simply does not back up your ridiculous claims

 Marmatag wrote:
In other armies, they're still solid, 2W 3+ is actually fairly durable overall, in a general sense. Even more so with prepared positions - which is an amazing stratagem for marine players.

They are fine in casual games but unfortunately the moment anyone starts including damage 2 or even d3 etc weapons they start to melt - and a lot of this is competitive. Meanwhile Intercessors have worse shooting point for point than Marines so you pay a lot of a unit with such little potential.

I mean lets bring on my friendly neighborhood 3 Ravagers with our good friend Archon - almost a given in any Eldar soup - and I am going to kill 12-14~ Primaris on average a turn - before I stick on doom or whatever other buffs. Thats bad at 18 points - 34-35 points (hellblasters) a model that doesn't just hurt, its game ending. Especially when I still have three quarters of my army remaining to do yet more damage.

Asmodios wrote:

ZOMG they can beat 99% of soup builds.... finishes behind tau at most tournaments.....

Those 99% of soup builds do not appear in tournaments, as they're not OP cheese builds. Also, all good IG tournament players bring Knights over IG superheavies, because they're a bit better, so why wouldn't they? Yes, this means Knights need some nerfing too, they already received some and I expect more in CA. If the Knights get nerfed hard enough, we will see them to be replaced by the IG superheavies, which currently are the next best thing.

 Marmatag wrote:
Company Commanders should easily be 60 points per. Primaris Psykers should be more expensive than a Librarian as they have overall better powers.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds.

Except...they're not doing so according to any tournament data across all formats we have on hand...


Ultimately, there are changes I can absolutely live with. I'm all for GS and KA going byebye. Cant wait. Id be down for a reintroduction of a Platoon system, as the game has never handled Guard, being an army composed of lots of distinct small units versus a few large units, very well from an army construction standpoint. Im not going to cry if guardsmen go up to 5ppm.

That said, I also think people are dramatically overestimating what effect 5ppm are going to have on CP batteries, as until you get to truly punitive pricing (basically anything above 5pts), Guard will remain the cheapest and most effective CP source. Allies and Soup, and CP batteries, need direct addressing within the context of the core rules, and we see broad issues with allies across every faction that can use allies.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

ZOMG they can beat 99% of soup builds.... finishes behind tau at most tournaments.....

Those 99% of soup builds do not appear in tournaments, as they're not OP cheese builds. Also, all good IG tournament players bring Knights over IG superheavies, because they're a bit better, so why wouldn't they? Yes, this means Knights need some nerfing too, they already received some and I expect more in CA. If the Knights get nerfed hard enough, we will see them to be replaced by the IG superheavies, which currently are the next best thing.

so what your saying is that all good IG players recognize that mono IG isn't competitive..... really makes you think

No mono build is a major winner in the current meta, Guard and Tau are just the only ones who get even marginally close.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Agressors are the best out of all of them. Hellblasters and inceptors are just too expensive for what they do - AKA - killing themselves. Reivers are just intercessors -1. Plus a primaris brigade is already bringing 30 intercessors (which is the base of most of my Ultra marine armies)

Don't agree RE: Hellblasters and Inceptors. These guys are great, and really shine in Deathwatch.

For instance, when you deep strike a squad of Hellblasters that also has ablative wounds, and an Inceptor so they can fall back and shoot?

In other armies, they're still solid, 2W 3+ is actually fairly durable overall, in a general sense. Even more so with prepared positions - which is an amazing stratagem for marine players.

Space Wolves also have the ability to deep strike Hellblasters, which immediately improves their value, too.

All of the primaris stuff is not as bad as people claim it is.

Nah - its bad. 34 point models that kill themselves aren't good. -1 to hit is rampent. Nothing with a full slay plasma is viable. Basically if your opponent is Eldar/DE/Harli the unit is totally useless and passably bad against any army with native -1's all over the place. I like to imagine codex deathwatch doesn't exist because it basically dooms the space marine codex to suck forever. Meanwhile my Ultramarines can fall back and shoot with a -1 penalty...holy friggen crap.

Anyways I understand they are better in deathwatch but even deathwatch is overpaying for stuff though it's a lot more killy. Guilliman ancient banner is still probably better than anything deathwatch can muster. Plus when Castellans and crusaders shoot at you - they don't give 2 gaks about your ablative wounds. Nothing lives. Intercessors and aggressors work best for me. Inceptors cost way to much and revivers have no roll in a marine army.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...they're not doing so according to any tournament data across all formats we have on hand...

As I said that 99% of the soups do not appear in the tournaments in the first place, as they're not particularly effective. This is why I resist blacket nerfs to the soup for the sake of that 1%.

Ultimately, there are changes I can absolutely live with. I'm all for GS and KA going byebye. Cant wait. Id be down for a reintroduction of a Platoon system, as the game has never handled Guard, being an army composed of lots of distinct small units versus a few large units, very well from an army construction standpoint. Im not going to cry if guardsmen go up to 5ppm.

We really don't disagree on what changes the Guard needs.

That said, I also think people are dramatically overestimating what effect 5ppm are going to have on CP batteries, as until you get to truly punitive pricing (basically anything above 5pts), Guard will remain the cheapest and most effective CP source. Allies and Soup, and CP batteries, need direct addressing within the context of the core rules, and we see broad issues with allies across every faction that can use allies.

Good first step would be to return Battalion and Brigade CPs to their original levels but Increase the battleforged CP. That makes the cheap CP generating detachments both less necessary and less appealing. I'm sure they would still see some use, but it would be a less obvious choice.

Asmodios wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

ZOMG they can beat 99% of soup builds.... finishes behind tau at most tournaments.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

Really this...
Change a Castellan to a shadowsword / or a bane hammer / or even a baneblade / or 3 command russ
and take orgryns or scions or artillery in place of smash captains

That list beats most of the same armies - it's really only at risk of facing the castellan itself. FFS that lists wins tournaments already.

That list does not win tournaments lol maybe 1 in 100 or your local RTT but no real tournaments. The data simply does not back up your ridiculous claims

I mean if you want to argue facts be my guest but it just makes you look foolish. Mono Guard do really well in ITC events. Mono Guard won warzone atalanta.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

ZOMG they can beat 99% of soup builds.... finishes behind tau at most tournaments.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

Really this...
Change a Castellan to a shadowsword / or a bane hammer / or even a baneblade / or 3 command russ
and take orgryns or scions or artillery in place of smash captains

That list beats most of the same armies - it's really only at risk of facing the castellan itself. FFS that lists wins tournaments already.

That list does not win tournaments lol maybe 1 in 100 or your local RTT but no real tournaments. The data simply does not back up your ridiculous claims

I mean if you want to argue facts be my guest but it just makes you look foolish. Mono Guard do really well in ITC events. Mono Guard won warzone atalanta.

You are talking about the Warzone Atlanta...... The tournament that takes place on November 10th...... you are talking about a tournament from 2017 almost a year ago...... wow you really got me with that one

Asmodios wrote:

so what your saying is that all good IG players recognize that mono IG isn't competitive..... really makes you think

It may not be not cutting edge tournament competitive; after some Knight nerfs it might be more so. But frankly, I really don't care that much about that top level tournament meta, that affects a tiny fraction of players and tournaments always breed weird game breaking builds. I care more about casual or semi competitive meta, the sort of games majority of people play. In that environment the Guard being OP is quite noticeable. And it is not even some weird gimmicky build that you intentionally need to make, it is their common units, the commanders, the infantry, the Leman Russ tanks and the artillery, which punch way above their points. Whilst it is obviously a good thing that a fluffy build for the army is worth fielding, it is not fair that it is so much more effective than many other armies, and it being exactly the sort of army most Guard players happen to own the issue becomes very prevalent. For similar reason I care less about those 1% of soup build that create some game breaking combos, and more about that 99% which more casual player is likely to bring.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

so what your saying is that all good IG players recognize that mono IG isn't competitive..... really makes you think

It may not be not cutting edge tournament competitive; after some Knight nerfs it might be more so. But frankly, I really don't care that much about that top level tournament meta, that affects a tiny fraction of players and tournaments always breed weird game breaking builds. I care more about casual or semi competitive meta, the sort of games majority of people play. In that environment the Guard being OP is quite noticeable. And it is not even some weird gimmicky build that you intentionally need to make, it is their common units, the commanders, the infantry, the Leman Russ tanks and the artillery, which punch way above their points. Whilst it is obviously a good thing that a fluffy build for the army is worth fielding, it is not fair that it is so much more effective than many other armies, and it being exactly the sort of army most Guard players happen to own the issue becomes very prevalent. For similar reason I care less about those 1% of soup build that create some game breaking combos, and more about that 99% which more casual player is likely to bring.

So let me get this straight....
We need to nerf the "not cutting edge tournament competitive" army.... Because it's clearly broken even though we have no data that it's actually broken.

Using this logic we need to nerf Tau because they might not be cutting edge tournament competitive but just trust me everyone knows they are broken and if you ask for some sort of evidence you are clearly a science denier

Heck we can use this exact argument for every army in the game "hey guys i know its not winning tournaments but trust me x faction is super broken and everyone knows it so lets just nerf it"

Asmodios wrote:

So let me get this straight....
We need to nerf the "not cutting edge tournament competitive" army.... Because it's clearly broken even though we have no data that it's actually broken.

Using this logic we need to nerf Tau because they might not be cutting edge tournament competitive but just trust me everyone knows they are broken and if you ask for some sort of evidence you are clearly a science denier

Heck we can use this exact argument for every army in the game "hey guys i know its not winning tournaments but trust me x faction is super broken and everyone knows it so lets just nerf it"

That you don't understand that Guard is OP doesn't mean it isn't. It is hardly an uncommon opinion and it is pretty obvious in many casual metas. Comparative analysis of Guard units to equivalent units in other codices shows that they're often better. The math about the guardsmen have been done to death, even ignoring their crazy ability to generate CP they're too good for their points. There is plenty of evidence, you just don't want to hear it. Them constantly being taken over other imperial options proves that they're the best troop unit in the game. And all that top end Imperial soup you're worried about has guard in it. It is literally the common element.

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

ZOMG they can beat 99% of soup builds.... finishes behind tau at most tournaments.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Except you leave out the part where those troops are balanced fine when being contained to a mono codex and that nuking them because of there ability to generate CP in soup will barely affect soup but absolutely gut mono IG players

But they're not balanced! Guard tanks and superhevies backed up by infantry can beat any monobuild, maybe sans Alaitoc Eldar. They can also beat 99% of soup builds. That this is even better if you replace the tanks with Knights doesn't change fact that the IG are OP.

Really this...
Change a Castellan to a shadowsword / or a bane hammer / or even a baneblade / or 3 command russ
and take orgryns or scions or artillery in place of smash captains

That list beats most of the same armies - it's really only at risk of facing the castellan itself. FFS that lists wins tournaments already.

That list does not win tournaments lol maybe 1 in 100 or your local RTT but no real tournaments. The data simply does not back up your ridiculous claims

I mean if you want to argue facts be my guest but it just makes you look foolish. Mono Guard do really well in ITC events. Mono Guard won warzone atalanta.

You are talking about the Warzone Atlanta...... The tournament that takes place on November 10th...... you are talking about a tournament from 2017 almost a year ago...... wow you really got me with that one

This game is in a constant state of flux. Guess what armies were exactly the same then? Ynnari, CWE. Plus turn 1 deepstrike was legal. AKA - bad for gun lines. Magnus starts the game with -1 to hit from changeling. It was honestly more impressive then to take the win than now.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

So let me get this straight....
We need to nerf the "not cutting edge tournament competitive" army.... Because it's clearly broken even though we have no data that it's actually broken.

Using this logic we need to nerf Tau because they might not be cutting edge tournament competitive but just trust me everyone knows they are broken and if you ask for some sort of evidence you are clearly a science denier

Heck we can use this exact argument for every army in the game "hey guys i know its not winning tournaments but trust me x faction is super broken and everyone knows it so lets just nerf it"

That you don't understand that Guard is OP doesn't mean it isn't. It is hardly an uncommon opinion and it is pretty obvious in many casual metas. Comparative analysis of Guard units to equivalent units in other codices shows that they're often better. The math about the guardsmen have been done to death, even ignoring their crazy ability to generate CP they're too good for their points. There is plenty of evidence, you just don't want to hear it. Them constantly being taken over other imperial options proves that they're the best troop unit in the game. And all that top end Imperial soup you're worried about has guard in it. It is literally the common element.

Translate
:the fact that you don't understand that guard is broken does not change the fact i feel they are broken so they are clearly broken and need to be nerfed:
yeah sorry this has to be the absolute worst argument I've ever seen

Asmodios wrote:

Translate
:the fact that you don't understand that guard is broken does not change the fact i feel they are broken so they are clearly broken and need to be nerfed:
yeah sorry this has to be the absolute worst argument I've ever seen

I mean we could go ever the math again, but there is no point. It has been done many times, and you keep ignoring it.