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There is plenty of evidence that has been provided. You can't just call it fake news and move on.

I'm starting to feel like the only things cherry picked more than the units in a min-maxed allied list are the examples used to prove that monoguard are somehow stronger than allied min-maxed Imperium with a splash of Guard for CP purposes.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also it's quite clear to pretty much everyone that 5 point infantry are still the best choice in the game.

I feel like the game needs to bump Infantry costs up in general. If a Sister of Battle is 10, then a Scion should be 9, a Guardsman 7 or 8 and a Conscript 1 point below that. Put a grot at a point even lower than that and we're basically were I feel that spread should be.

Which in turn would cue the rage of everyone who runs Guard or Orks I'm sure, but I feel like that's about how much those models should cost before wargear in the current edition.

Strongly disagree with that. To me it's pretty clear that when it comes to basic troop infantry that the ones at the bottom are too good for their points and the ones on the top are not worth their points.
Under
Infantry
Khabs
Firewarriors
Vangaurds(to some extent)
(At least 1 point increase)

Over
Strike squads
tactical marines
rubrics
necron warriors
immortals
dire-avengers
(all of these should drop 1-2 points)
Intercessors

off the top of my head the only really good elite options for their points that are troops are
Harlequin troops
Battlesisters (possibly OP once they get army rules)

Guardians are in kind of a weird place where they are probably over-costed but are at least playable.

Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Already been tested in proxy. During index 40k conscripts were spammed and we had no access to any real stratagems.

Sorry but that's just not a valid comparison.

In Index-40k, you could mix and match troops freely in detachments (so a SM detachment could have conscript troops rather than SM troops).

That is no longer possible.

What's more, with the suggested rules above, you'd likely be losing out on CPs by taking guard allies (since they wouldn't bring any CPs with them). This might not have mattered in the Index era, when there was little to spend CPs on, but it makes a lot more difference now.


Besides, what's the harm in testing it properly and finding out for certain? Unless you're afraid that the results will prove you wrong.

The harm is wasted time. I don't need to see test results. I know Infantry squads are too cheap by doing simple math and comparing to other armies. Also - the comparison is valid. Cheep chaff infantry are spammed because they are much more valuable than what you pay for them. No one did what you are suggesting because it would shut off army rules. The only reason they would do it would be to include assasins or hq's that don't need armies traits. Losing out on an army trait for infantry would be idiotic - so it's not really relevent to the discussion.

Realistically - Conscripts and infantry are the same unit. One hits on 5's and the other hits on 4's. If you are paying 1/3 percent more to hit 1/3 more it's basically the same thing. We already know what will happen. Even if stratagems weren't a thing units like this will be spammed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also it's quite clear to pretty much everyone that 5 point infantry are still the best choice in the game.

I feel like the game needs to bump Infantry costs up in general. If a Sister of Battle is 10, then a Scion should be 9, a Guardsman 7 or 8 and a Conscript 1 point below that. Put a grot at a point even lower than that and we're basically were I feel that spread should be.

Which in turn would cue the rage of everyone who runs Guard or Orks I'm sure, but I feel like that's about how much those models should cost before wargear in the current edition.

Strongly disagree with that. To me it's pretty clear that when it comes to basic troop infantry that the ones at the bottom are too good for their points and the ones on the top are not worth their points.
Under
Infantry
Khabs
Firewarriors
Vangaurds(to some extent)
(At least 1 point increase)

Over
Strike squads
tactical marines
rubrics
necron warriors
immortals
dire-avengers
(all of these should drop 1-2 points)
Intercessors

off the top of my head the only really good elite options for their points that are troops are
Harlequin troops
Battlesisters (possibly OP once they get army rules)

Guardians are in kind of a weird place where they are probably over-costed but are at least playable.

I clearly didn't bother to price tag every unit in the game, and was just giving an example of how, assuming a Sister is worth 10 points, we should be pricing the models below them.

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Khabs aren't OP because of their stats. Their stats are pretty tame for 6 points. They are a gaurdsmen (should be 5 points) with a much better gun (+1 point) should be fair right? No - power from pain is probably the main problem with these guys. 6+FNP just for existing is too much. That is an army trait for most every other army. They get this plus an army trait. This makes a 6 point khab OP.

Also - their transports are too cheap too. Shooting out of a vehical is incredibly strong. Ether the transports need to go up or these guys do - don't care what they do in that situation.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't need to see test results. I know Infantry squads are too cheap

Sorry, but this sounds like really bad testing.

'I know my theory is right, don't go bothering me with facts and data!'

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't need to see test results. I know Infantry squads are too cheap

Sorry, but this sounds like really bad testing.

'I know my theory is right, don't go bothering me with facts and data!'

No you are ignoring over a years worth of data because it's not the data you want. Cheap infantry is always spammed and always will be.

I gave you an example of cheap screens being spammed even when CP was not really needed as there was almost nothing to spend it on.

Clearly there is a need for fodder troops outside of generating CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yeah but it is an important distinction to make. The problem is cheap infantry - not elite infantry.

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

 Xenomancers wrote:

"I clearly didn't bother to price tag every unit in the game, and was just giving an example of how, assuming a Sister is worth 10 points, we should be pricing the models below them."

Yeah but it is an important distinction to make. The problem is cheap infantry - not elite infantry.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

 Marmatag wrote:
There is plenty of evidence that has been provided. You can't just call it fake news and move on.

No evidence has been provided, the closest thing is "if you walk a bunch of guardsmen across the board with commanders and take no casualties and can bring all there shot to bear on one unit you will out shoot marines"..... the fact that its the best thing that can be presented in the face of actual game results is pathetic

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

 Marmatag wrote:
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.

You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.

You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.

Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.

Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.

You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.

You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.

Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.

Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?

All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.

That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.

Yes, it is better to wait until you have reliable data than to make half-cocked assumptions based on bad data.

I'm not sure what the downside to this would be.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.

You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.

You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.

Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.

Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?

All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.

That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.

Dark Eldar were hot garbage before their weapons got buffs in the codex. There are numerous counters to DE as well. Primaris isn't one of them, and that's not a good enough reason to object to DE being good. Tau, Tyranids, Necrons - all decent counters to DE if played well. With my Nids i crush Eldar with little trouble. Problem is Knights have invalidated a lot of the counters.

Asmodios wrote:

So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge

Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.

Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.

You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.

You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.

Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.

Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?

All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.

That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.

Dark Eldar were hot garbage before their weapons got buffs in the codex. There are numerous counters to DE as well. Primaris isn't one of them, and that's not a good enough reason to object to DE being good. Tau, Tyranids, Necrons - all decent counters to DE if played well. With my Nids i crush Eldar with little trouble. Problem is Knights have invalidated a lot of the counters.

I'm not arguing anyone should be bad. Heck, I'm not known for my choice of strong codexes or armies (I play Imperial Fists and just started GSC the week following them getting nerfed to not Cult Ambush on turn 1). I was more offering my meager attempt at an idea how to benefit from Vect without going full Vect.

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There is plenty of evidence that has been provided. You can't just call it fake news and move on.

No evidence has been provided, the closest thing is "if you walk a bunch of guardsmen across the board with commanders and take no casualties and can bring all there shot to bear on one unit you will out shoot marines"..... the fact that its the best thing that can be presented in the face of actual game results is pathetic

There have been plenty of game results. We've just moved way too far beyond them in rules and meta to even bother dredging them up.

Make the Castellan list, but don't use IG then the picture will be a little more clear.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge

Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.

Yes they are. Keep in mind that 'dealing with something' doesn't have to always mean killing it dead in a single turn. Now that the bikes can't charge over the screen, you can bog them down pretty easily. Tarpits are the new black.

Only if Guardsmen go up to 5 points.

MSU is better when you're encountering blocks of 36 hurricane bolter shots hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s.

It's easier to keep your units in cover, which helps, and it's also forcing your opponent to overkill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.

You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.

You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.

Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.

Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?

All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.

That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.

Dark Eldar were hot garbage before their weapons got buffs in the codex. There are numerous counters to DE as well. Primaris isn't one of them, and that's not a good enough reason to object to DE being good. Tau, Tyranids, Necrons - all decent counters to DE if played well. With my Nids i crush Eldar with little trouble. Problem is Knights have invalidated a lot of the counters.

I'm not arguing anyone should be bad. Heck, I'm not known for my choice of strong codexes or armies (I play Imperial Fists and just started GSC the week following them getting nerfed to not Cult Ambush on turn 1). I was more offering my meager attempt at an idea how to benefit from Vect without going full Vect.

Understood.

Eldar need to solve this problem, whereas a Dark Eldar army (most people don't run dark eldar armies because of the obvious weaknesses) don't really have the same concerns. Bringing a patrol to have that feather in your cap for a list that does something completely functionally different makes sense, you're minimizing an investment to get the desired result. However when the meat and potatoes of your army is actual DE, you need the FNP, the Wound Relic, and the warlord trait. Without these you do not function.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge

Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.

Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.

So multiple counters exist in the meta which is why we aren't seeing any of these phantom IG armies placing at tournaments........ What do you call an army that has several easy counters to it floating about.... I sure don't call it broken.

Also all this FAQ is going to do is slightly increase the amount of guard you see taken
instead of the loyal 32 many are going to opt for the cheapest guard brigade soon. You still won't see mono guard crushing tournament after tournament because they simply cant

The big winner of the FAQ is Ynnari who (thanks to soul burst) is the only army in the game that can easily and effectively jump screens left and right.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge

Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.

Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.

So multiple counters exist in the meta which is why we aren't seeing any of these phantom IG armies placing at tournaments........ What do you call an army that has several easy counters to it floating about.... I sure don't call it broken.

Also all this FAQ is going to do is slightly increase the amount of guard you see taken
instead of the loyal 32 many are going to opt for the cheapest guard brigade soon. You still won't see mono guard crushing tournament after tournament because they simply cant

The big winner of the FAQ is Ynnari who (thanks to soul burst) is the only army in the game that can easily and effectively jump screens left and right.

A brigade/or batallion of catachans or cadians is probably the most common detachment in 40k tournaments scene right now. Are you seriously talking about phantom IG?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.

It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.

10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.

Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.

Poison is solid against high toughness non-vehicles, with no better than a 3+, and even a 3+ is tough. What is that? I have a grip of poison in my list. What are you facing that i am not?

 Xenomancers wrote:

No you are ignoring over a years worth of data because it's not the data you want. Cheap infantry is always spammed and always will be.

Sure. When there is no cost to doing so.

You cannot take different rules and different situations and expect things to remain the same.

Far from ignoring the data I'm literally suggesting a way to get the most accurate data possible.

You are the one constantly refusing to get data that would prove you right. Of course, this assumes that you really believe the data would back you up. If, on the other hand, you just want to see guard infantry nerfed for the sheer hell of it, then suddenly you not wanting to get accurate data makes a lot more sense.

Well I emailed GW about the fly change (mentioned they could restrict it to require you to measure vertical distance on the charge, and require charges to multicharge against the unit they're charging over so the screen is doing something other than standing around like a bunch of confused ducks when they see the flying bananas race past), CP sharing (mentioned that CP generation could change to being tied to points, CP could be restricted to the same detachment, and/or CP bonuses be given the AoS treatment so you don't get as much if you don't share as many keywords), and talked about maybe, just maybe, could we get a cover mechanic for when people shoot through a unit at something behind that unit (if, say 50% of it is covered by intervening models).