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 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.

It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.

10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.

Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_drukhari_en-2.pdf
How does ignore cover not work on the guys in transports? The wording of this isn't even ambiguous to me.

Asking seriously - did this get interpreted to not affect the guys inside?

Tyel wrote:
Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?

I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.

Talking about the top 16 of any tournament and trying to balance based on that is such a ridiculous notion anyway.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.

It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.

10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.

Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.

Poison is solid against high toughness non-vehicles, with no better than a 3+, and even a 3+ is tough. What is that? I have a grip of poison in my list. What are you facing that i am not?

Yeah.
i play a lot of different armies vs a lot of different armies. Things I've seen khabs do that no other infantry in the game could hope to do. Drop skarbrand - mortarian - carnifexes - hivetyrants - daemon princes - mutlith vortex beasts. They also do well compared to other infantry against custodians. Saw this poor fool ran an Avatar and won a GT somehow - guess he didn't run into any dark eldar. Theres lots of powerful units that poison just merks. Otherwise - it's still buckets of dice and if you are flayed skull they are basically -1 AP against everything you are shooting at...cause who isn't in cover these days? or ever really.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.

It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.

10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.

Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_drukhari_en-2.pdf
How does ignore cover not work on the guys in transports? The wording of this isn't even ambiguous to me.

Yep, you're right, if they're embarked they get the ignore cover too. But, who cares, seriously.

If you're not running black heart you should be running Obsidian Rose.

What you lose:
1. Rerolling 1s to wound aura thanks to relic. You now have no way to reroll wounds.
2. Getting CP on 6+ warlord trait. You desperately need CP.
3. FNP on vehicles
4. Agents of Vect

it's not worth it.

Again if you're playing Eldar, and just splicing in DE for some shooting, sure, obsidian rose all day. But if you are playing Dark Eldar, you need what Black Heart brings.

Asmodios wrote:
The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge

The only thing that is broken about IG is the CP generation funding the elite, high impact stratagems of other armies. On top of that, they appear to be an issue because of the relative weakness of competing troop choices for many Imperial Armies. There may be an argument that they're undercosted for what they bring, whatever. I'd rather they have competition because other troop choices were made better, not because Guardsmen were made worse.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.

It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.

10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.

Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_drukhari_en-2.pdf
How does ignore cover not work on the guys in transports? The wording of this isn't even ambiguous to me.

Yep, you're right, if they're embarked they get the ignore cover too. But, who cares, seriously.

If you're not running black heart you should be running Obsidian Rose.

What you lose:
1. Rerolling 1s to wound aura thanks to relic. You now have no way to reroll wounds.
2. Getting CP on 6+ warlord trait. You desperately need CP.
3. FNP on vehicles
4. Agents of Vect

it's not worth it.

Again if you're playing Eldar, and just splicing in DE for some shooting, sure, obsidian rose all day. But if you are playing Dark Eldar, you need what Black Heart brings.

Look I'm not trying to tell you how to play DE. They have a lot of good options. If I want to reroll wounds I just bring doom along. If I want Vect I bring a flyer wing with dessie cannon night fighters or 3 Voidravens. I put my archons into action - My ravagers get get re-roll 1's ignore cover and can split up in the back feild without having to waste an archon. Overall it's really the best.

Most your army is in transports - the get no benift from reroll 1's aura to hit or to wound. Unless you are flayed skull - you are reolling 1's to hit basically no mater what.

Most armies I see use an archon to buff their ravagers. Flayed skull doesn't need to waste an archon to do that. He can fly up and be where he needs to be while ravagers can split up and hold back line.

Ignore cover in most cases is going to be identical to re-roll 1's to wound. How often are you shooting at something without a cover save in this game? Maybe 30% of the time?

Plus - doom is where the money is at. Ravagers with doom reroll 1's ignore cover is GG.

Also I have no issue with range in DE. everything moves 19 " in the move phase. Range is not an issue. I don't remember what obsidian rose WL trait and relic are but I remember not being impressed.

I am happy with flayed skull warlord trait though. I try to make a murder archon. +1 attack +1 str with djin blade. If he soul traps a unit - he becomes a living god with str 6 ap-3 9 attacks d3 damage. That's better than celestine.

In any case this is way off topic - feel free to PM me. Happy to talk about DE. I think the topic to convey here is that a 6 point khab inside a venom is too good. Not even custdians are safe - they will die to weight of dice.

I like the everything always works and nothing ever fails approach. Doom requires a 7 to cast and is subject to denial, it targets exactly 1 unit.

Ravagers are easily deleted if they start on the table, or you're paying 3CP to deep strike them, which is hard to afford.

You can't win a game with just disintigrator cannons; strength 5 is a huge limitation. They're a nice feather in the cap, but subtracting them, are Dark Eldar really able to do much of anything? Drop the dissies from a DE list and see how it does. Hint: it would suck.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

DE aren't paper thin. They are very durable/pt.

That statement is false. Rule of 3. Can't bring more than 3 ravagers, so durable per point is less relevant when you can't bring the most effective unit in the codex at will.

And they are paper thin even per point, so, not sure what you're saying.

Raiders and venoms are also durable/pt.

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders and venoms are also durable/pt.

Nope. Not at all.

 Marmatag wrote:
I like the everything always works and nothing ever fails approach. Doom requires a 7 to cast and is subject to denial, it targets exactly 1 unit.

Ravagers are easily deleted if they start on the table, or you're paying 3CP to deep strike them, which is hard to afford.

You can't win a game with just disintigrator cannons; strength 5 is a huge limitation. They're a nice feather in the cap, but subtracting them, are Dark Eldar really able to do much of anything? Drop the dissies from a DE list and see how it does. Hint: it would suck.

Dessie outdamage a dark lance vs a knight...how is it a limitation? It's better than a dark lance except vs t6 and t7 and it's not like I don't have at least 8 blasters in an army. I can reliably cast doom with eldrad. +1 to cast with a reroll of any dice I want - to get a 7? I think we are well over 75% at that point. Eldar psychic is top notch.

Yeah because everyone runs Ulthwe and not Alaitoc.

And good luck getting in range without getting blown out of the water. Stop acting like competitive marine lists don't feature 20+ scout snipers, which will drop a psyker effortlessly. Also funny is the Knight missile that Imperium has, to blow any character off of the table.

Dark Eldar don't function without doom, or wound rerolls. Stop acting like they do.

I'm not on board with nerfing dark eldar. The most problematic stuff in eldar +de lists is the eldar or ynnari, not the DE.

If you nerf blasters and disintigrators DE are back on the garbage heap, without question.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders and venoms are also durable/pt.

Nope. Not at all.

Do the math. They treat most AT weapons better than rhinos. You need specialized weapons to take advantage of T5.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah because everyone runs Ulthwe and not Alaitoc.

And good luck getting in range without getting blown out of the water. Stop acting like competitive marine lists don't feature 20+ scout snipers, which will drop a psyker effortlessly. Also funny is the Knight missile that Imperium has, to blow any character off of the table.

Dark Eldar don't function without doom, or wound rerolls. Stop acting like they do.

I'm not on board with nerfing dark eldar. The most problematic stuff in eldar +de lists is the eldar or ynnari, not the DE.

If you nerf blasters and disintigrators DE are back on the garbage heap, without question.

Okay I didn't say that DE can take on Castellans. Nothing can - it's broken as feth. Well Harlie bikes can...

Snipe scouts are hilariously bad. My flayed skull ravagers remove them at will and they don't even get a save. Literally the same dice to remove sniper scouts as it is to remove 4 point gaurdsmen.

Ravagers are top tier. Maybe not as flashy as certain units - but always reliable. 9 Effective range 50, S5, AP-3, D2 shots is awesome versus just about anything more expensive than Ork boyz. 10 wounds with T6, 4+/5++/6+++ is also comically cheap on the defensive side.

Grots and Talos with 4++ are also top tier.

Regular Kabalites are not that great, but in conjunction with venoms (-1 to hit, T5, 4+5++/6+++) you have an incredibly fast unit for grabbing objectives, sniping key units/characters, and generally belying their apparently easiness to kill. Not convinced they are broken though - they don't appear that much in tournaments.

Kabalites on their own are certainly not that great - in part despite speculating about it, I have yet to see 100, or 200 on a table. (And I can't be bothered to buy that many for a gimmick list that might suck). Most people take 15-30 max so its hard to see how they are really a key feature.

Dissies should go up 5 points, the 4++ should be changed to rerolling invuls of 1. I feel that would make DE reaonably good, but only at a level other armies should emulate.

As said I'd like to nuke soup from space, but every DE list benefits from having Eldar psychics. It will typically benefit from Harlie haywire bikers too.

LOL yeah, okay. When your vehicles stop getting a save altogether in melee, let me know. Being wounded by custodes on 3s in melee versus 5s is a colossal mind crushing difference. If Dark Eldar had a repulsor tank we would all be taking it.

Smash captain wounds all our vehicles on 2 and we don't get a save. For the cost of a ravager you can delete a ravager.

And it's not like you can't just add a Castellan to your list. WTF am i gonna do against Cawls' Wrath? Hell even a Valiant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Ravagers are top tier. Maybe not as flashy as certain units - but always reliable. 9 Effective range 50, S5, AP-3, D2 shots is awesome versus just about anything more expensive than Ork boyz. 10 wounds with T6, 4+/5++/6+++ is also comically cheap on the defensive side.

Ravagers are good. No one is denying that.

Remember DE vehicles only get a 5++ in shooting.
And the 6+++ is only if you're Kabal of the Black Heart, not everyone does this, especially in the context of soup, as the extra range is preferred.

There are plenty of counters to these vehicles.

Eldar lists bring Hemlock Wraithfights for a reason. It's like 100 points more, for Flying, -2 to hit, 2d3 auto hits -4, 2 damage, full psychic including d3/d6 smite, can attack any area on the board thanks to its insane pivot + move + pivot.

You generally don't see ravagers in eldar soup for a reason. Better options exist.

 Marmatag wrote:
LOL yeah, okay. When your vehicles stop getting a save altogether in melee, let me know. Being wounded by custodes on 3s in melee versus 5s is a colossal mind crushing difference. If Dark Eldar had a repulsor tank we would all be taking it.

Smash captain wounds all our vehicles on 2 and we don't get a save. For the cost of a ravager you can delete a ravager.

And it's not like you can't just add a Castellan to your list. WTF am i gonna do against Cawls' Wrath? Hell even a Valiant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Ravagers are top tier. Maybe not as flashy as certain units - but always reliable. 9 Effective range 50, S5, AP-3, D2 shots is awesome versus just about anything more expensive than Ork boyz. 10 wounds with T6, 4+/5++/6+++ is also comically cheap on the defensive side.

Ravagers are good. No one is denying that.

Remember DE vehicles only get a 5++ in shooting.
And the 6+++ is only if you're Kabal of the Black Heart, not everyone does this, especially in the context of soup, as the extra range is preferred.

There are plenty of counters to these vehicles.

Smash captains and casteallans need nerfs - you've said it yourself that these units were not dealt with properly. Perhaps the castellan will go up to a reasonable price of say 720-750 points. Perhaps smash captains can start paying a reasonable cost for their gear or something. IDK. Smash captain is still effing busted.

You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.

Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.

Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.

Tyel wrote:
You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.

Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.

Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.

But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.

Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.

It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.

I don't consider melee a viable solution to drukhari transports. You need to get to the weapons, which means you need to shoot them out of the transports.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't consider melee a viable solution to drukhari transports. You need to get to the weapons, which means you need to shoot them out of the transports.

You mean the 1 blaster? lol

And every army that is designed with melee in mind has a credible way to turn 1 charge.

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.

Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.

Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.

But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.

Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.

It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.

i'm going to LVO this year. Maybe I'll see you there. Think I'm going to be playing knights though to be honest. I don't really go to a lot of big tournaments. I go to my local 1's and I do really well.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't consider melee a viable solution to drukhari transports. You need to get to the weapons, which means you need to shoot them out of the transports.

You mean the 1 blaster? lol

And every army that is designed with melee in mind has a credible way to turn 1 charge.

So?

Try two blasters and a lance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.

Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.

Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.

But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.

Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.

It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.

i'm going to LVO this year. Maybe I'll see you there. Think I'm going to be playing knights though to be honest. I don't really go to a lot of big tournaments. I go to my local 1's and I do really well.

Dude. Awesome. Let's meet up and have a beer.

Hes talking about a raider.

Also a decent kind of economy choice. No -1 to hit though so it's less favorable to a venom.

 Marmatag wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.

Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.

Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.

But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.

Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.

It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.

I do go to tournaments - and ravagers are there.
I also look at armies that do well at other tournaments and you know what - and ravagers are there.

I mean I don't think the BFS tournament should be our benchmark on life but:
https://www.battle-report.com/2018/10/08/2018-battle-for-salvation-grand-tournament/

Sean Nayden's weird "how do you not get shot off the board" list - no ravagers. Also no Reapers, no Shining Spears.
Player 3 - Eldar Soup, Ravagers.
Player 5. Eldar soup, Ravagers.

Look at Nova, admittedly pre-FAQ, but look at all the ravagers.

They're a good unit. Their appearance in top lists doesn't automatically mean they're overpowered.

Knights have turned this meta upside down. A lot of the hard counters for DE vehicles are not viable because of Knights.

Dessie is OP IMO - doesn't mater where it goes. I don't think DL ravagers are OP. Infact - inferior to nightfighter with darklance...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are not undercosted.

They die like flies.

If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.

I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.

Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.

This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.

Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.

It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.

You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.

If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.

IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.


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Asmodios wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge

Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.

Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.

So multiple counters exist in the meta which is why we aren't seeing any of these phantom IG armies placing at tournaments........ What do you call an army that has several easy counters to it floating about.... I sure don't call it broken.

Also all this FAQ is going to do is slightly increase the amount of guard you see taken
instead of the loyal 32 many are going to opt for the cheapest guard brigade soon. You still won't see mono guard crushing tournament after tournament because they simply cant

The big winner of the FAQ is Ynnari who (thanks to soul burst) is the only army in the game that can easily and effectively jump screens left and right.

A brigade/or batallion of catachans or cadians is probably the most common detachment in 40k tournaments scene right now. Are you seriously talking about phantom IG?

Phantom IG refering to the mono guard boogie men that haunt dakkas dreams