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@BCB-

Question. has any book or game book written by humans ever had 0% errors?

just curious.

 Desubot wrote:
Question. has any book or game book written by humans ever had 0% errors?

just curious.

Nope. The only thing we've ever seen is books that never get those errors corrected.

I'd rather be concerned by all the huge cock ups GW makes. Not just mistakes in rulebooks.

I'd take a well playtested balanced game with spelling errors and before release FAQ/errata over a steaming pile of unbalanced garbage with spelling errors and before release FAQ/errata.

Priorities.

Creating a 100+ page book full of numbers, rules and statistics without errors is impossible, even if you have the best QA department in the world. Typo's will slip through and someone, somewhere will find a way to to something abusive and unintended with your so painstakingly worded rules. We are humans, not robots.

Pandabeer wrote:
Creating a 100+ page book full of numbers, rules and statistics without errors is impossible, even if you have the best QA department in the world. Typo's will slip through and someone, somewhere will find a way to to something abusive and unintended with your so painstakingly worded rules. We are humans, not robots.

And even robots aren't perfect.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Creating a 100+ page book full of numbers, rules and statistics without errors is impossible, even if you have the best QA department in the world. Typo's will slip through and someone, somewhere will find a way to to something abusive and unintended with your so painstakingly worded rules. We are humans, not robots.

And even robots aren't perfect.

Says you, meatbag.

I find that quantity of errors is more forgiveable than GW's continual refusal to write a clear and consistent game. Rulebooks written by competent people do things like write a page or two of universal timing sequence to create a consistent framework in which special rules can be written, whereas GW goes "no, timing sequences are too complicated, we don't need to bother with that" and then has to write the timing sequence of every single rule as a discrete FAQ entry because they couldn't be bothered to write the rules properly in the first place.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find that quantity of errors is more forgiveable than GW's continual refusal to write a clear and consistent game. Rulebooks written by competent people do things like write a page or two of universal timing sequence to create a consistent framework in which special rules can be written, whereas GW goes "no, timing sequences are too complicated, we don't need to bother with that" and then has to write the timing sequence of every single rule as a discrete FAQ entry because they couldn't be bothered to write the rules properly in the first place.

It seems to be a British thing. at least going by the now defunct spartan games books, and some confusion in warlord stuff on occasion (at least format wise).

The obsession with timing and super lawyer type rules seem to be an american thing with MTG the king of timing and erattas and possibly some flavor of warmahords.

 Desubot wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find that quantity of errors is more forgiveable than GW's continual refusal to write a clear and consistent game. Rulebooks written by competent people do things like write a page or two of universal timing sequence to create a consistent framework in which special rules can be written, whereas GW goes "no, timing sequences are too complicated, we don't need to bother with that" and then has to write the timing sequence of every single rule as a discrete FAQ entry because they couldn't be bothered to write the rules properly in the first place.

It seems to be a British thing. at least going by the now defunct spartan games books, and some confusion in warlord stuff on occasion (at least format wise).

The obsession with timing and super lawyer type rules seem to be an american thing with MTG the king of timing and erattas and possibly some flavor of warmahords.

So American rules-writers expect their players to be rules lawyers fishing for advantage and British rules-writers expect their players to be gentlemanly about the whole affair?

I don't have a huge sample size but it'd make an interesting subject to look into further.

I was reading Dune the other day and found errors. This book has been around since 1965. It has been published many times and, I presume, proofread each time. It has less errors than most books since it's been proofread to death, but it does still have an occasional misspelling or grammatical error. If you find a book that doesn't have any errors - it's most likely either a kids book and has maybe 10 sentences, or you don't have a high enough skill level to recognize those errors.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find that quantity of errors is more forgiveable than GW's continual refusal to write a clear and consistent game. Rulebooks written by competent people do things like write a page or two of universal timing sequence to create a consistent framework in which special rules can be written, whereas GW goes "no, timing sequences are too complicated, we don't need to bother with that" and then has to write the timing sequence of every single rule as a discrete FAQ entry because they couldn't be bothered to write the rules properly in the first place.

It seems to be a British thing. at least going by the now defunct spartan games books, and some confusion in warlord stuff on occasion (at least format wise).

The obsession with timing and super lawyer type rules seem to be an american thing with MTG the king of timing and erattas and possibly some flavor of warmahords.

So American rules-writers expect their players to be rules lawyers fishing for advantage and British rules-writers expect their players to be gentlemanly about the whole affair?

I don't have a huge sample size but it'd make an interesting subject to look into further.

It's a claim I can believe. I mean 40k is a more laid back beer and pretzels game while MtG is a highly technical game that requires a lot of player fishing for combos and the like.

Guess which one is the American game.

Nah, it’s more a case that GWs narrative/casual rule tone leaves gaps or confusion that would be absent from more technical style of writing. GW writes rules like it’s a friend talking to you, instead of a drill sergeant making sure you have hospital corners on your bunk.

Still, I think BCB doth overly protest too much. I hate errata and FAQs, but this level of complaint is absurd.

What are is the errata for? Isn't it a legitimate change they've made to the book, rather than a "mistake"?

It's a different thing to what your OP suggests, an improvement or balance tweak rather than a "fix our mistake" type scenario.

Yeah its not a British VS US thing its just two products from two countries with different standards and internal teams. MTG just has a different team and attitude toward rule writing than GW. That Rule Writing in GW also appears to be one of the more long term and static positions likely explains why it doesn't change a huge amount over time - ergo GW aren't replacing all their rules writing staff regularly so we get the same patterns.



That said GW is improving and is taking good steps and lets not forget this is the first itme they've ever updated their entire game in a year or so only. Go back even just 1 edition and it was a case of "if" you got a new edition codex not when; and it was months and months between releases.

A vastly sped up release cycle is going to potentially generate more errors in production until GW has done it a few times to iron things out.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, please point out a video game that has no bugs or crashes. A novel with not a single grammar or spelling error. Almost everything released today has flaws. Unlike previous additions GW is trying to patch things in an active manor.

Call me old fashioned but I remember when you bought a game you could reasonably expect it to work without Day 1 DLC and Fixes. GW treating their books like SaaS but charging you as if they are complete products is what I find most insulting. They don't even update the ePubs.

Your nostalgia is showing. There are plenty of games that were released that were blatant broken cash grabs. Anything published by "LJN" for example.

Indeed.

Warcraft 1 patches:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Warcraft:_Orcs_%26_Humans_Patch_Information

A game released in 1994.

Pacman bugs:

https://tcrf.net/Bugsac-Man_(Arcade)

And Harry Potter:

Are all those wizards secretly rocking a second wand? In the very first edition of the very first Harry Potter book, the list of school supplies for Hogwarts lists "1 wand" twice. You'd think all those extra wands might enter into the plot at some point...

And ASOIF :

The entire Song of Ice and Fire series—the books that the HBO show A Game of Thrones is based on—is rife with typos and consistency errors, but Book Five arguably has the most. For instance, on page 854, where Queen Cersei descends a staircase and muses: "’I am beautiful,’ she reminded himself." The word “wroth” is consistently misused in this book as well—e.g., page 53: "Even in the north men fear the wroth of Tywin Lannister." (Wroth is an adjective, meaning angry—author George R. R. Martin should have used “wrath,” the noun form.)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, please point out a video game that has no bugs or crashes. A novel with not a single grammar or spelling error. Almost everything released today has flaws. Unlike previous additions GW is trying to patch things in an active manor.

Call me old fashioned but I remember when you bought a game you could reasonably expect it to work without Day 1 DLC and Fixes. GW treating their books like SaaS but charging you as if they are complete products is what I find most insulting. They don't even update the ePubs.

I remember waiting weeks and weeks for the new PC Gamer magazine with the patch CD/DVD on the front to get hold of patches for games back during the golden age of gaming. Also day one DLC wasn't really around then because, well, it wasn't a feasible product model to run for companies back then. Heck DLC itself wasn't possible until the internet was born

It’s hilarious to imply that older video games never had bugs and problems. The infamous nuke-happy Gandhi in the Civilization series originated from a bug in the 1991 game! Look at any old game, even critically acclaimed ones like Super Mario Bros (1985) and there are a host of bugs and glitches.

meleti wrote:
It’s hilarious to imply that older video games never had bugs and problems. The infamous nuke-happy Gandhi in the Civilization series originated from a bug in the 1991 game! Look at any old game, even critically acclaimed ones like Super Mario Bros (1985) and there are a host of bugs and glitches.

-1 world for example.

Try teaching Physics A-Level and dealing with the numbers of errors of science in those textbooks and resources, let alone mere typoes and formatting errors. It makes GW look as perfect as Fulgrim.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
As much as I hate to stick up for our resident porcine cat, telling him to "just quit" isn't exactly productive. If your kids start doing dumbfethery, do you just kick them out the door as you're just moaning about it not being perfect? It's the very fact he cares that he whines so much.

How many of you would have chimed in with the same comment if it was not posted by our resident whiny pontificator whose reputation precedes him?

Whining? I am not whining. I am complaining.

THIIIIIIIIIS IS WHIIIIIIIIINING. Assault weapons don't woooooooork. Spore mines have iiiiiiiiiinfinite raaaaaaaange. Why can't I charge Wave Serpents!?!?

Citation please.
whine
(h)wīn
noun
1. a long, high-pitched complaining cry.
Since we're dealing in text media and audio isn't available, I have to assume the vowels in your typed words could be interpretted as high pitched. Until a special snowflake FAQ is released I have to assume your complain is also a whine.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, please point out a video game that has no bugs or crashes. A novel with not a single grammar or spelling error. Almost everything released today has flaws. Unlike previous additions GW is trying to patch things in an active manor.

Call me old fashioned but I remember when you bought a game you could reasonably expect it to work without Day 1 DLC and Fixes. GW treating their books like SaaS but charging you as if they are complete products is what I find most insulting. They don't even update the ePubs.

Yep, and barring games that were so simple you could read through the entire code over lunch, those games still had errors. Just usually not ones that completely broke the game. The fact that they couldn't easily fix problems or weren't willing/able to fix problems, didn't mean the problems didn't exist.

That's also discounting that changes can be made not only to fix errors, but to adjust balance, or make improvements to something that's not inherently broken to begin with.

Can we rename this thread to something more appropriate?
Like "BaconCat complaint thread #2,846"?

Other things we can complain about:
I wish that tax code didn't need so much errata.
I wish Infinity didn't have pages of Errata and FAQ for every edition.
I wish food didn't go bad.
I wish (insert political issue).
Why doesn't water taste like kool aid?
It's unfair when people use stuff to beat me in games! Why would someone make a game like that!
Why aren't people who make my games perfect in every way?

Zothos wrote:
So what? I bet there are errors in most printed materials.

Perhaps not buying such imperfect things should be a course you consider, since it seems to irk you so.

I wonder what CBC thinks of the re-write of a chapter of the Hobbit after the first printing run! OMG! JRRT IS AWEFUL

Ponders how to respond to OP without OP flagging him and getting a little site holiday. Reconsiders. Just decides to exalt a bunch of the wittiest responses instead. Top thread, peeps. Solid 5/7 would exalt again.

I've got news for you.

In 8 editions, GW hasn't produced ANY 40k rulebook PERIOD without errors. From RT onwards.

None of this "Johnny come lately" crap.

Take it from someone who works in publishing (me). Books without errors don't exist.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, please point out a video game that has no bugs or crashes. A novel with not a single grammar or spelling error. Almost everything released today has flaws. Unlike previous additions GW is trying to patch things in an active manor.

Call me old fashioned but I remember when you bought a game you could reasonably expect it to work without Day 1 DLC and Fixes. GW treating their books like SaaS but charging you as if they are complete products is what I find most insulting. They don't even update the ePubs.

It's not old fashioned until you have to mess with IRQs or make a boot disk for your game to work.

 chromedog wrote:
I've got news for you.

In 8 editions, GW hasn't produced ANY 40k rulebook PERIOD without errors. From RT onwards.

None of this "Johnny come lately" crap.

Yeah I remember back in the days of 2nd edition 40k White Dwarf had a dedicated section for rule queries and clarifications.

It seems like a bit much to demand error-free codices, especially when GW has committed to putting out FAQs and errata. There might be a point to be made about the wound needing to be updated, but the erreta are usually no more than a page per faction.