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Tyel wrote:
What buffs are Marines getting that are remotely comparable being S4 with 2 attacks in melee and getting orders (shooting twice, double moving etc)?

Stacked rerolls put up some mean numbers, man. Shooting twice with lasguns is nice, but stacked re-rolls can increase the damage output of ALL weapons (often from +80 to +100%), and it works in both the shooting and close combat phase. I just did this in another thread, but it's something like a marine max re-rolling Lascannon is worth 236% times that of a Guard 4+ Lascannon against standard vehicle type targets.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
What buffs are Marines getting that are remotely comparable being S4 with 2 attacks in melee and getting orders (shooting twice, double moving etc)?

Stacked rerolls put up some mean numbers, man. Shooting twice with lasguns is nice, but stacked re-rolls can increase the damage output of ALL weapons (often from +80 to +100%), and it works in both the shooting and close combat phase. I just did this in another thread, but it's something like a marine max re-rolling Lascannon is worth 236% times that of a Guard 4+ Lascannon against standard vehicle type targets.

Okay another question then, why do you think we are not seeing Salamanders at all competitively?

If you could insert Gman into any army other than marines and have him function like he does for ultra marines - that army would instantly become an unbeatable force.

When space marines get it...it's like...yeah that hurts but our firepower is basically equal because of how easy it is to remove marines and marine vehicals.

Spoletta wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's closer to reality than fiction atm. Guardsmen are objectively worth more than 4 pom. Mortars and wyverns seem out of whack with other ap 0 options in the game. They share the ability to easily put 100+ t 5/6+ sounds on the table with the drukhari.

Deathstrike missiles surely are not undercosted. Neither are conscripts and veterans. Nor are commissars, ratlings, servants, ogryns.

The number of actual problematic units in the IG codex is low.

Even if you go into the "good but not excellent" choices, like vanilla russes and Manticores, you surely are not going to tell me that a Russ should be a 200 point model, right? Actually if we want to go down the "direct confrontation" route, it has troubles fighting a single Vindicator, which is a 125 points "total crap" model.

Basilisks, hellhounds and company commanders are the only models who would still be decent with a +20% cost, so i can see it coming for them.

Infantry squads are a completely different matter, they are not 4 points models, but they are aren't 5 points either.

By closer, I mean 11% might be a better number. Not in problematic unit count. I think guardsmen are easily 5 pts both mathematically and in-game practicality.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
What buffs are Marines getting that are remotely comparable being S4 with 2 attacks in melee and getting orders (shooting twice, double moving etc)?

Stacked rerolls put up some mean numbers, man. Shooting twice with lasguns is nice, but stacked re-rolls can increase the damage output of ALL weapons (often from +80 to +100%), and it works in both the shooting and close combat phase. I just did this in another thread, but it's something like a marine max re-rolling Lascannon is worth 236% times that of a Guard 4+ Lascannon against standard vehicle type targets.

Mean for the cost of the source of the rerolls? And the mobility you are giving up to do it?

infantry are easily 5 points base and CC are easily 40 points base. Some of the orders are too strong too. Double shots is absolutely insane.

Spoletta wrote:
Marines need something and no one here is arguing about that.

It's just broad stataments like "Everything guard is 20% undercosted" that really highlights how skewed people's perception is.

See if you would actually read what people type instead of reacting to what you think people say it would help a lot.
I never said guard was 20% undercosted, I said a number of units are 20% overcosted if you use guard as a yard stick.

That means something totally different. If guard is 5% undercosted to Tau, nids etc and Tau are 10 % undercosted to marine's marines are 10% overcosted to a Tau, Nid base line but 20% to a guard baseline.
Drukari still have some broken stuff even compaired to a guard baseline but that still doesn't mean units Don't need 20% plus points cuts to compete with IG codex.

Still not convinced this works btw, although it may change with special weapons.

Catachan guardsmen, rapid fire, FRSRF, assault on marines=
4*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.2222
2*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.1666
Equals 0.388888 dead marines, equals 5.05 points, equals a 125% return on 4 point guardsmen.

Marine, with RG rerolls shooting and assault on marines:
2*8/9*3/4*1/3=0.4444
1*8/9*3/4*1/3=0.2222
Equals 0.666 dead marines, equals 8.666 points, equals a 66% return on your 13 point tactical marine.

Marine, with RG rerolls, shooting and assault on guardsmen:
2*8/9*8/9*2/3=1.054
1*8/9*8/9*2/3=0.527
Equals 1.58 dead guardsmen, equals 6.32 points, equals a 48% return on your points.

And thats just Straken without the ever present priest.

Straken obviously doesn't have as much raw power as Bobby G by himself - but he also isn't nearly as expensive.

Tyel wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
What buffs are Marines getting that are remotely comparable being S4 with 2 attacks in melee and getting orders (shooting twice, double moving etc)?

Stacked rerolls put up some mean numbers, man. Shooting twice with lasguns is nice, but stacked re-rolls can increase the damage output of ALL weapons (often from +80 to +100%), and it works in both the shooting and close combat phase. I just did this in another thread, but it's something like a marine max re-rolling Lascannon is worth 236% times that of a Guard 4+ Lascannon against standard vehicle type targets.

Okay another question then, why do you think we are not seeing Salamanders at all competitively?

Because the Salamanders tactic caps out at one re-roll per squad. Duh.

Guilliman is every model within every squad within range of his bubble, that's why he costs 400 points. Because full re-rolls for everybody is crazy valuable. Waaay more valuable than firing twice with Lasguns.


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Tyel wrote:
Still not convinced this works btw, although it may change with special weapons.

Catachan guardsmen, rapid fire, FRSRF, assault on marines=
4*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.2222
2*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.1666
Equals 0.388888 dead marines, equals 5.05 points, equals a 125% return on 4 point guardsmen.

Marine, with RG rerolls shooting and assault on marines:
2*8/9*3/4*1/3=0.4444
1*8/9*3/4*1/3=0.2222
Equals 0.666 dead marines, equals 8.666 points, equals a 66% return on your 13 point tactical marine.

Marine, with RG rerolls, shooting and assault on guardsmen:
2*8/9*8/9*2/3=1.054
1*8/9*8/9*2/3=0.527
Equals 1.58 dead guardsmen, equals 6.32 points, equals a 48% return on your points.

And thats just Straken without the ever present priest.

Straken obviously doesn't have as much raw power as Bobby G by himself - but he also isn't nearly as expensive.

The "Vs. model" of math hammer is a bad model. Marines don't have to beat Guardsmen as long as there is some other unit in their codex (of like 90 units) that can beat Guardsmen.

Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

At the start of the fight phase +1 attack to every Catachan within 6''

Can give 2 orders

ITT again, the anti-guard crowd can't get basic facts right. Prinaris Psykers don't get an invuln save. But keep making stuff up while screaming imba!

 Bobthehero wrote:
At the start of the fight phase +1 attack to every Catachan within 6''

Can give 2 orders

That's. . . not that exciting?

Models or units?

Units

That's something. . . but I can't say I'm too impressed. I'll take 50-100% increase in firepower any day.

Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

Strakens cost is roughly 75 points I don't remmeber exactly. Hes basically a space marine chaplain (I think invo might be 5++ though) plus he gives 2 orders like a company commander.
Instead of a reroll hits in CC bubble. He gives each catachen unit +1 attack each time it fights. Keep in mind catachans all have str 4 because that is their army trait.

+1 attack for 4 point models is already pretty insane. The combo hasn't even started though. A preist basically has the same +1 attack buff and hes 35 points. Also has a 4++ save but basically sucks otherwise...doesn't matter he costs 35 points.

110 points to get 300% damage in CC out of 4 point units...holy crap. Plus they can fight twice with an order so thats 600% damage increase buff in CC. Throw in harker and they are all rerolling 1's too (most just skip this).


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Dandelion wrote:
Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

It doesn't take a lot to figure out these guys have insane damage potential. Not trying to be rude but this kind of stuff sickens me. A catachans but spank space marines in CC...why the heck don't they turn these guys into Astartes? The would be primarchs after the augments.

He's 90 points

Harker only works for shooting

You fail to include the price of the Straken and the priest when you compare the Guardsmen to Genestealers. You'll spend about the same PPM, Genes get faster mvt speed and -1 AP. Wether than's worth 2 atks is up for debate.

Catachans don't need to be mutants in power armor to be competent, suck it.

It sure sounds unwieldy and difficult to deliver effectively, if you ask me.

I'm not saying it's bad, mind you, just not impressive.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs.

Sorry, how do they get 6 attacks each?

Edit: Sorry, fight-twice order.

Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.

Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

Strakens cost is roughly 75 points I don't remmeber exactly. Hes basically a space marine chaplain (I think invo might be 5++ though) plus he gives 2 orders like a company commander.
Instead of a reroll hits in CC bubble. He gives each catachen unit +1 attack each time it fights. Keep in mind catachans all have str 4 because that is their army trait.

+1 attack for 4 point models is already pretty insane. The combo hasn't even started though. A preist basically has the same +1 attack buff and hes 35 points. Also has a 4++ save but basically sucks otherwise...doesn't matter he costs 35 points.

110 points to get 300% damage in CC out of 4 point units...holy crap. Plus they can fight twice with an order so thats 600% damage increase buff in CC. Throw in harker and they are all rerolling 1's too (most just skip this).


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Dandelion wrote:
Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

It doesn't take a lot to figure out these guys have insane damage potential. Not trying to be rude but this kind of stuff sickens me. A catachans but spank space marines in CC...why the heck don't they turn these guys into Astartes? The would be primarchs after the augments.

The double fight order does not work due to it's timing.

How many times do you get to shoot in melee with pistols? That's the same number of times that a guard can use the double fight order.

RogueApiary wrote:
ITT again, the anti-guard crowd can't get basic facts right. Prinaris Psykers don't get an invuln save. But keep making stuff up while screaming imba!

I like them better b/c I can get twice as many smites out of the primaris psykers. Also, their spell list is better than marines or BA.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.

Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.

Again another one that doesn't know how guard works.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.

Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.

Yeah ok, fair enough, at 6 attacks they start to get impressive. That's definitely something.

Edit: Waaaaiit. . . .?

Spoletta wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.

Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.

Again another one that doesn't know how guard works.

Ok so what's the real story?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.

Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.

Yeah ok, fair enough, at 6 attacks they start to get impressive. That's definitely something.

Edit: Waaaaiit. . . .?

Spoletta wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.

Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.

Again another one that doesn't know how guard works.

Ok so what's the real story?

This one:

Fix Bayonets: "This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit immediately fights as if it were the Fight phase."

You are never going to use it.

Uh, I missed that line, fancy.

Haha, so I take it back. Not impressive.

Thanks for the clarification Spoletta.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It sure sounds unwieldy and difficult to deliver effectively, if you ask me.

I'm not saying it's bad, mind you, just not impressive.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs.

Sorry, how do they get 6 attacks each?

Edit: Sorry, fight-twice order.

Fix bayonets is in the shooting phase. So this takes place after they have been locked in for a turn. They don't just charge and immediately fight twice.

You FRFSRF then charge. 4 lasgun shots and 2/3 (one is nice enough tbh) S4 fist attacks is incredible for a 4 point unit.

Most things that want to charge guardsmen are going to kill them - but there are niche case scenarios where they may charge one thing and then consolidate into you for example to contest/claim an objective. In that situation you can proceed to punch them in the face. (And in turn it may be preferable for them to take the punches or force a fall back rather than be shot off the table next turn).

Really though Straken is cheap and you have to take some HQs. RG is a massive investment. If you can get your entire army into his bubble its probably still worth it - but there are tactical limitations to a Bobby G castle.

Really Catachans are probably the best thing in the game right now. They are critical to Imperial Soup's success, just as much as the Castellan and Smash Captains. If they don't impress you much I am suspect you are not playing the same game.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.

5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead

Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead

Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".

You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.