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2018/10/01 21:36:01
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
I think that at least part of the problem with Imperial Guard isn't actually that their troops are so cheap.
I mean yes, they are amazing, powerful, and cheap. Fine. But in a pure IG list that's not so terrible.
The problem is how easy it is to add a battallion of IG troops with all their strengths and buffs to any imperial list.
Can this be done with Chaos? Not really. Adding daemon troops to a list is doable, but to do so you have to pay a heavy tax in HQ's. The good HQ's are expensive, and the cheap HQ's are terrible and not even that cheap.
Eldar are in much the same situation, though DE might have a cheap HQ (I only know Eldar and Harlequins, and their HQ's are not cheap).
IG? HQ's are good, and cheap, and make the troops you get significantly better so they're always worth their points.
If IG troops stayed the same price, but the HQ's were raised in points to be more in line with other armies so that the battallion ends up more in line with the cost of battallions from other armies, things might be a bit more balanced.
Basically it ends up coming to the same line of thought that there should be more of a tax or price for taking detachments from other armies. The problem though is that other armies already have to pay this cost, but IG doesn't (or pays much less at least).
Problem is, the way GW fixes things is shown in this new FAQ. They'll make a blanket change that taxes everyone the same, which will still mean that IG will be relatively the cheapest option, and so nothing will change.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 21:36:58
2018/10/01 21:42:07
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Tyel wrote: You FRFSRF then charge. 4 lasgun shots and 2/3 (one is nice enough tbh) S4 fist attacks is incredible for a 4 point unit.
Most things that want to charge guardsmen are going to kill them - but there are niche case scenarios where they may charge one thing and then consolidate into you for example to contest/claim an objective. In that situation you can proceed to punch them in the face. (And in turn it may be preferable for them to take the punches or force a fall back rather than be shot off the table next turn).
Really though Straken is cheap and you have to take some HQs. RG is a massive investment. If you can get your entire army into his bubble its probably still worth it - but there are tactical limitations to a Bobby G castle.
Really Catachans are probably the best thing in the game right now. They are critical to Imperial Soup's success, just as much as the Castellan and Smash Captains. If they don't impress you much I am suspect you are not playing the same game.
The Catachan regimental trait should be nerfed in some way, maybe +1 attack on the charge instead. However, the FAQ has come and gone. So it will likely remain the same until next Spring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 21:42:50
2018/10/01 21:49:24
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/10/01 21:54:47
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.
You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.
The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/10/01 22:11:51
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Martel732 wrote: Condescending much? The other podcasters on Reece's own website don't agree with him frequently.
They can disagree with him all they like, he still took an army you guys have written off for dead pretty much all of 8th and got a top 16 finish. And yeah, when the Anti-Guard crowd can't get basic facts about the freaking rulesets being used in the competitive meta right, I'm going to be pretty condescending when you all come into every Guard thread screaming OMG GW GUARD OP PLZ NERF.
Remember that time a Thousand Sons lost made it to a Top 8 in 6th and nobody really cared?
Flukes happen.
It's not a fluke when it's someone who consistently does well at tournaments. It's just a good list in the hands of a good player.
Then it would happen consistently. Why would nobody defend Rubric Marines in their 6th/7th edition incarnation when someone apparently proved they could win with them?
That's where the math comes in. They're lousy, simple as that. You never got any copycats for such a list or anything, and it faded into obscurity whilst the rest of us were making sure we could counter Serpents and Centurionstar.
When someone gets high results most time they played, and gets high results the FIRST time they use that list, chances are against it being a fluke. Until he plays it again a few times and fails, there's no grounds at all to call it a fluke, just because bads are doing bad.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/01 22:19:38
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.
You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.
The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.
If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.
You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.
The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.
If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.
Then what did the model miss?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/10/01 22:33:36
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
The rest of the game, the rest of the army, the rest of the potential units available to an army, upgrades, buffs, deployability, positioning, morale. . . etc.
Like my statement further up the thread, Tac marines don't have to beat Guardsmen in a stand up fight to achieve balance. As long as some unit in the codex can be effective against guardsmen in a reasonably attainable situation, then you're good to go.
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.
You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.
The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.
If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.
Then what did the model miss?
You are looking at numbers in a complete vacuum in a single very specific way.... that's what the example with the tac marines is.... it's pointing out just how silly it is to analyze the data that way. Your mathematical model is leaving out everything else in the entire game. It's like looking at a baseball player seeing he has the best on-base stat for bunting and then claiming this makes his team a lock for winning the world series
2018/10/01 23:53:35
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
The rest of the game, the rest of the army, the rest of the potential units available to an army, upgrades, buffs, deployability, positioning, morale. . . etc.
Like my statement further up the thread, Tac marines don't have to beat Guardsmen in a stand up fight to achieve balance. As long as some unit in the codex can be effective against guardsmen in a reasonably attainable situation, then you're good to go.
If you wanna include the points for those things you can. You just have to include the equal amount of points for Guard, and those things HAVE been done. Yeah go ahead and include any of the Chapter Tactics and Captain if you want, just do the same for the Guard for an equal amount of points.
So what IS this reasonable unit if nobody else is smart enough to get it besides you?
I love how Catachan meele infantry hordes, a competitive staple at this point in top level soup lists, used by many top players for great results, come under scrutiny by the dakkadakka crowd and are dismissed as "Bah, they aren't that powerfull"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 00:52:12
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/10/02 01:14:16
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.
Other things also need to be nerfed:
Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.
Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.
Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.
2018/10/02 01:44:03
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
bibotot wrote: Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.
Other things also need to be nerfed:
Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.
Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.
Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.
So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?
And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?
Wow.
Also I don't know the problem with ravagers, but plague drones are already pretty expensive bullet sponges. They do soak up a lot of bullets, but then thats what they're designed to do, they don't do anything else. Remove one of their saves and they'd just be ... expensive nothings.
2018/10/02 02:11:16
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
bibotot wrote: Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.
Other things also need to be nerfed:
Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.
Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.
Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.
So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?
And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?
They'd still see a lot of use with their only thing worse than conscripts being a 6+ save and no grenades while they would be cheaper, have access to special weapons, have a higher leadership and have melee weapons.
2018/10/02 02:40:13
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Galas wrote: I love how Catachan meele infantry hordes, a competitive staple at this point in top level soup lists, used by many top players for great results, come under scrutiny by the dakkadakka crowd and are dismissed as "Bah, they aren't that powerfull"
Imo, the dangerous things in an Imperial soup army are not the Guardsmen. It's all the other stuff that one has to deal with. As beefed up the Catachans are, they still suffer from being just Guardsmen. You can see the blob from a mile away, they need to get close to be dangerous, they're slow and unwieldy, and if you put the effort into killing them, they die pretty fast.
They're a fine objective holding anchor to an army that concentrates it's offensive output in other units. I've just never found guardsmen that difficult to deal with when the time comes to deal with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 02:40:43
bibotot wrote: Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.
Other things also need to be nerfed:
Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.
Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.
Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.
So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?
And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?
Wow.
Also I don't know the problem with ravagers, but plague drones are already pretty expensive bullet sponges. They do soak up a lot of bullets, but then thats what they're designed to do, they don't do anything else. Remove one of their saves and they'd just be ... expensive nothings.
How is Cultist mediocre? Many Chaos tournament-wining lists are Alpha Legion with Cultist swarm. Overall, their 4 pts per model is as unjustified as Conscripts because the Guardsmen are way better than both for the same cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 02:45:22
2018/10/02 03:16:57
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Galas wrote: I love how Catachan meele infantry hordes, a competitive staple at this point in top level soup lists, used by many top players for great results, come under scrutiny by the dakkadakka crowd and are dismissed as "Bah, they aren't that powerfull"
Imo, the dangerous things in an Imperial soup army are not the Guardsmen. It's all the other stuff that one has to deal with. As beefed up the Catachans are, they still suffer from being just Guardsmen. You can see the blob from a mile away, they need to get close to be dangerous, they're slow and unwieldy, and if you put the effort into killing them, they die pretty fast.
They're a fine objective holding anchor to an army that concentrates it's offensive output in other units. I've just never found guardsmen that difficult to deal with when the time comes to deal with them.
The dangerous things in an Imperial Soup army are ALL the units. Thats why they are topping tournaments left and right. Theres not a single unit in those lists that are not extremely good. One could argue about BA Scouts to bring Smashfester, but the rest of the units? Imperial Guard are Catachan for a reason. If people just wanted them to be objetive holders they would be Vostroyan for the +6" or Cadian for rerrolling. But the most competitive lists take them as a meele catachan horde.
What even means to be "just" Guardsmen? How are they slow and unwieldy with "Move! Move! Move!"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 03:17:48
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/10/02 03:21:55
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
I didn't say they weren't good. But Imo they remain the least dangerous. I think I'd prefer them coming over to get me rather than me having to go over there and dig them out. But It's ITC, so I get the board pressure thing. It's clear why they're desireable.
The rest of the game, the rest of the army, the rest of the potential units available to an army, upgrades, buffs, deployability, positioning, morale. . . etc.
Like my statement further up the thread, Tac marines don't have to beat Guardsmen in a stand up fight to achieve balance. As long as some unit in the codex can be effective against guardsmen in a reasonably attainable situation, then you're good to go.
If you wanna include the points for those things you can. You just have to include the equal amount of points for Guard, and those things HAVE been done. Yeah go ahead and include any of the Chapter Tactics and Captain if you want, just do the same for the Guard for an equal amount of points.
So what IS this reasonable unit if nobody else is smart enough to get it besides you?
Storm Ravens, since the poor bastard Catachans will never catch them and can't charge them anyways, lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 03:55:17
Insectum7 wrote: Didn't mono-tau an mono-guard finish effectively as a tie in one of the last few major tournaments?
The absolute best Tau players are playing Tau exclusively. The absolute best Guard players are bringing soup lists.
And this is why you can't balance Imperium, Chaos, and Aeldari against everyone else.
So what you're saying is that when the dexes were played solo, even the worser Guard players were able to get the same results of the absolute best Tau players?
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/02 04:18:34
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Insectum7 wrote: Didn't mono-tau an mono-guard finish effectively as a tie in one of the last few major tournaments?
The absolute best Tau players are playing Tau exclusively. The absolute best Guard players are bringing soup lists.
And this is why you can't balance Imperium, Chaos, and Aeldari against everyone else.
So what you're saying is that when the dexes were played solo, even the worser Guard players were able to get the same results of the absolute best Tau players?
It's probably a bit more complicated than that (given that the best players period are the guys like Nick Nanavati who are willing and able to switch to whatever army they think is the best right now) but essentially, yes. The Tau codex is far from terrible but... Guard is definitely better.
2018/10/02 05:01:34
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Bobthehero wrote: Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.
Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.
Again another one that doesn't know how guard works.
Ok so what's the real story?
This one:
Fix Bayonets: "This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit immediately fights as if it were the Fight phase."
You are never going to use it.
This is the way my Space Wolves biker Rune Priest got killed a few days ago. I charged into a squad of Guardsmen and he intervention with one of his three company commander in, put 5(!!!!!!) powerfist attacks to the RP. dealting 2 wounds. Then come to his turn, it is another 5 PF attacks in his shooting phase followed by another 5 PF attacks in combat phase.
Sooooo, you Space Wolves hero charge into IG gunline and think you can win the game? You are wrong, eat 15 Powerfist Attacks!!!!!
2018/10/02 06:25:52
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.
5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24" Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead
Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead
Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".
You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.
Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.
So they do that in a single situation. And then what?
Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.
^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.
You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.
The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.
If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.
Then what did the model miss?
I can provide you a mathematically correct scenario where 5 firewarriors kill 10 guards without suffering a single loss, and i can do this only because this way of comparing stuff is silly. Not only that, but it fails to consider all the ways that the said models interact with other models. In the specific case of guards vs firewarriors, let me ask you:
Who is better at taking out T4 models? (Spoiler: FW) Who is better at taking out T6,7,8,9 models? (Spoiler: FW) Who is better at overwatch? (Spoiler: FW)
All of these advantages should not have a cost for the FW?
I use math as an argument and accept it as an argument used against me, but it must be real math with a rationale, not random numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 06:26:27
2018/10/02 08:45:21
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Bobthehero wrote: Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.
Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.
Again another one that doesn't know how guard works.
Ok so what's the real story?
This one:
Fix Bayonets: "This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit immediately fights as if it were the Fight phase."
You are never going to use it.
This is the way my Space Wolves biker Rune Priest got killed a few days ago. I charged into a squad of Guardsmen and he intervention with one of his three company commander in, put 5(!!!!!!) powerfist attacks to the RP. dealting 2 wounds. Then come to his turn, it is another 5 PF attacks in his shooting phase followed by another 5 PF attacks in combat phase.
Sooooo, you Space Wolves hero charge into IG gunline and think you can win the game? You are wrong, eat 15 Powerfist Attacks!!!!!
Let me get this straight, you charged into a 10 man infantry squad unit, and placed your rune priest at the end of it's charge move within 3" of a enemy hero but didn't declare that company commander as a charge target so that you could swing at him if he decided to heroically intervene? That sounds way more like you being terrible at the assault phase than Guard being OP.
This is yet another example of why I can't take you guys seriously. Time and time again the anti guard crowd demonstrate their failure to grasp basic aspects of the rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 08:46:53
2018/10/02 08:49:58
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
This is the way my Space Wolves biker Rune Priest got killed a few days ago. I charged into a squad of Guardsmen and he intervention with one of his three company commander in, put 5(!!!!!!) powerfist attacks to the RP. dealting 2 wounds. Then come to his turn, it is another 5 PF attacks in his shooting phase followed by another 5 PF attacks in combat phase.
Sooooo, you Space Wolves hero charge into IG gunline and think you can win the game? You are wrong, eat 15 Powerfist Attacks!!!!!
Runepriest is so wimply he couldn't simply splatter that company commander into pieces? We are talking about T3 5++ 4 wounds. Albeit I haven't read space wolf codex but last time I played space wolves in 8th ed their characters were more than competent enough to hack&slice that commander into pieces barring some serious sick luck with invulnerable saves. Now if there was 2 or 3 of those then that would be different but also costing 78-114 pts, concentrated in one place so orders diluted and you could have avoided that one as well often enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 08:51:57
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/10/02 09:15:46
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
This is the way my Space Wolves biker Rune Priest got killed a few days ago. I charged into a squad of Guardsmen and he intervention with one of his three company commander in, put 5(!!!!!!) powerfist attacks to the RP. dealting 2 wounds. Then come to his turn, it is another 5 PF attacks in his shooting phase followed by another 5 PF attacks in combat phase.
Sooooo, you Space Wolves hero charge into IG gunline and think you can win the game? You are wrong, eat 15 Powerfist Attacks!!!!!
Runepriest is so wimply he couldn't simply splatter that company commander into pieces? We are talking about T3 5++ 4 wounds. Albeit I haven't read space wolf codex but last time I played space wolves in 8th ed their characters were more than competent enough to hack&slice that commander into pieces barring some serious sick luck with invulnerable saves. Now if there was 2 or 3 of those then that would be different but also costing 78-114 pts, concentrated in one place so orders diluted and you could have avoided that one as well often enough.
The RP could potentially one-shot the commaander but it would come down to the damage rolls and if the cc rolled hot or cold on invulns. It's definitely not guaranteed though.
The point is he shouldn't have had to worry about heroic intervention in the first place because he should have either a) declared the cc as a charge target so he could at least try to kill the cc first or b) finished his charge move 4" away from the company commander.
What's also stupid is charging a lone RP into a 10 man infantry squad. Baseline, he only gets 3 attacks so it would take at least two turns to wipe the squad. More importantly, why is he charging at what has to be the strongest part of the line because there's apparently straken, two CC's and a priest all camping out within 6" of this infantry squad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 09:16:32
2018/10/02 09:18:56
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
Bobthehero wrote: Priest and Straken each give the Guardsmen +1 atk.
Then in the shooting phase they get the order to attack twice during the next fight phase.
Again another one that doesn't know how guard works.
Ok so what's the real story?
This one:
Fix Bayonets: "This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit immediately fights as if it were the Fight phase."
You are never going to use it.
This is the way my Space Wolves biker Rune Priest got killed a few days ago. I charged into a squad of Guardsmen and he intervention with one of his three company commander in, put 5(!!!!!!) powerfist attacks to the RP. dealting 2 wounds. Then come to his turn, it is another 5 PF attacks in his shooting phase followed by another 5 PF attacks in combat phase.
Sooooo, you Space Wolves hero charge into IG gunline and think you can win the game? You are wrong, eat 15 Powerfist Attacks!!!!!
I bet you'll do a better job at setting up your charges in the future won't you?
2018/10/02 10:02:34
Subject: Post FAQ Prediction - Astra Militarum Will Continue To Be Blamed
bibotot wrote: Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.
Other things also need to be nerfed:
Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.
Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.
Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.
So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?
And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?
Wow.
Also I don't know the problem with ravagers, but plague drones are already pretty expensive bullet sponges. They do soak up a lot of bullets, but then thats what they're designed to do, they don't do anything else. Remove one of their saves and they'd just be ... expensive nothings.
How is Cultist mediocre? Many Chaos tournament-wining lists are Alpha Legion with Cultist swarm. Overall, their 4 pts per model is as unjustified as Conscripts because the Guardsmen are way better than both for the same cost.
Infiltrating cultists no longer exist. That list has lost the majority of its power.
The Tacs still come out well ahead.
