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 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura

Correcting a misconception. No, this is not the case.

Yeah you can get rerolling hit rolls of 1 with no penalty, but anything else requires you to issue the "Take Aim!" Order to a unit, which means no FRFSRF or M^3, or whatever else. Not unless you give your Warlord a specific Relic and Warlord Trait(none of which are the CP regeneration ones mind you) where on a 4+ you can chain a second Order to the same unit(Relic) and on a 4+ you can chain the Order issued to a second unit of the same type(Infantry or Tank).

There is no longer a real use to bring Kurov's Aquilla, on its own its to unreliable and Grand Strategist is plenty on its own now.

Laurels of Command will show up a lot more from now on.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

To be fair, every edition has had this issue. You get 2-4 top armies each with a couple variations of builds that dominate, and everything else is starkly below that, with 2-4 armies being hopelessly outclassed and outdated below everything else. 6E/7E was the worst by far, but the current state of affairs is pretty close to where we were in 3E/4E/5E.

GW can never manage to balance stuff very well

To be fair, pretty much every game has this issue.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura, Catachan is general utility and offensive capability, with no drawback.
It's the same reason you only ever see 2-3 traits in a army. Why would you play WE in the csm Codex when you can field Alpha Legionaires?

The Catachan traits are definitely a bit overboard, and I thought as much when the codex was released, especially with regards to things like artillery units.

That said, with regards to the Cadian doctrine, the reroll is not new for them, they did have the same reroll ability in the 3.5E codex.


It is interesting to note that we basically never see Steel Legion, Mordians, etc these days.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

To be fair, every edition has had this issue. You get 2-4 top armies each with a couple variations of builds that dominate, and everything else is starkly below that, with 2-4 armies being hopelessly outclassed and outdated below everything else. 6E/7E was the worst by far, but the current state of affairs is pretty close to where we were in 3E/4E/5E.

GW can never manage to balance stuff very well

To be fair, pretty much every game has this issue.

True

 LunarSol wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

To be fair, every edition has had this issue. You get 2-4 top armies each with a couple variations of builds that dominate, and everything else is starkly below that, with 2-4 armies being hopelessly outclassed and outdated below everything else. 6E/7E was the worst by far, but the current state of affairs is pretty close to where we were in 3E/4E/5E.

GW can never manage to balance stuff very well

To be fair, pretty much every game has this issue.

To the point it is now?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

To be fair, every edition has had this issue. You get 2-4 top armies each with a couple variations of builds that dominate, and everything else is starkly below that, with 2-4 armies being hopelessly outclassed and outdated below everything else. 6E/7E was the worst by far, but the current state of affairs is pretty close to where we were in 3E/4E/5E.

GW can never manage to balance stuff very well

To be fair, pretty much every game has this issue.

Warmachine doesn't. There's still a gradient but there's at least two or three wildly different tournament-level competitive builds per faction in that game.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura

Correcting a misconception. No, this is not the case.

Yeah you can get rerolling hit rolls of 1 with no penalty, but anything else requires you to issue the "Take Aim!" Order to a unit, which means no FRFSRF or M^3, or whatever else. Not unless you give your Warlord a specific Relic and Warlord Trait(none of which are the CP regeneration ones mind you) where on a 4+ you can chain a second Order to the same unit(Relic) and on a 4+ you can chain the Order issued to a second unit of the same type(Infantry or Tank).

Mate, i can read, thank you very much and yes the base trait allready is as powerfull as certain reroll auras, if i want to field something the likes with CSM i need to bring a chaos lord, whilest these dudes "just get it" for standing still, something guard units do fairly well, especially when they get additional mortars in their squad, mind you there is also no problem of squezing them under a aura, etc. So no this is far from beeing a missconception and also the reason why there stood a "basically".

As for why Mordian or the Steel legion aren't picked, they either come with severe restrictions for exemple mordia needs to be specifically deployed, something that is easily broken up if one is not carefull through terrain. Then there is the whole problem of needing to be within 3 " for tanks to gain the bonus on Overwatch, which can and will be abused with assult rules and piling in, ergo the rule is kinda meh. Steel legion has the DG trait of 18" rapidfire range, i mean, yes that is nice , especially if you field bigger squads like conscripts so that all units within it are in rapid fire range but then again Lasguns remain lasguns. Their vehicle trait is also somewhat obsolete, since the only real AP-1 weaponry fielded are Heavy bolters and autocannons and those are allready not particulary efficent to deal with vehicles, granted chimeras etc, the lighter tanks would probably profit decently from it, but as long as you pay 93 pts for a basic chimera so long it seems the trait is more or less useless. Sentinels would probably get the most out of said trait, but compared to more reliability through catachan for random shot weaponry or compared to a boost in accuracy through Cadia it seems a bit underwhelming overall.
Vostroya is also in the same situation, since most matches are on such small tables that their additional 6" range is quite useless, except again better rapidfire range, punisher turn out to be fun though but again, is that worth it compared to the other options?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laurels of Command will show up a lot more from now on.

Probably, i would imagine since you can only gain one CP per turn now.

Tyel wrote:
As it is guardsmen start off as an excellent unit without external buffs. The guard tail is also - contrary to some claims - relatively cheap. You don't have to take a priest - but he isn't that expensive, and he fills out your brigade. You don't have to take Straken, but you do have to take some HQ choices. You could cut them out and put the points to use elsewhere - but what would that be?

Swapping out Straken and a Priest for a CC saves you 80pts. That's nothing to sneeze at.

For the sake of example: four infantry squads, a CC, Straken, and a Priest comes to 300pts. Even if you can keep all the squads in that 6" buff bubble (something that I find is tough, because it significantly restricts your maneuverability), you average 8.89 MEQs dead with a round of FRFSRF, and then if you charge you average another 10 MEQs dead in melee. Total: 18.89 kills.

Consider six infantry squads and two CCs instead, for the same 300pts. Even with two of the squads not benefitting from orders, you average 11.11 MEQs from shooting, then another 5 in melee. Total: 16.11 kills. That's 85% the damage output, but you have 50% more wounds, aren't reliant on getting into melee, can spread out more, and degrade in performance more gracefully as you take damage (since you have more units than orders).

I think people focusing on the Catachan/Straken/Priest combo are missing the forest for the trees. It's surprising to players who aren't expecting it, but keeping Infantry clumped up and then getting them all into melee is tough, and if they get charged first (which tends to happen) they get mulched before they can hit back. Gunline-oriented Guardsmen deliver comparable levels of damage more reliably and more flexibly, and can use the points saved for more guns and bodies. The problem is really Guardsmen and their core buff (orders) being so cheap.

IMO, bump Guardsmen up to 5ppm, Priest up to 40, Straken up to 90, and CCs up to 35, and call it a day. Maybe change the Catachan doctrine to WS3+ rather than S4 while we're at it.

Make Voxes mandatory for Infantry squads.

Now you have 4.5 point Guardsmen, for a pretty negligible boost in power.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Make Voxes mandatory for Infantry squads.

Now you have 4.5 point Guardsmen, for a pretty negligible boost in power.

And also does nothing to change the current state of things.

Guardsmen with the same strength as space marines is absurd.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura

Correcting a misconception. No, this is not the case.

Yeah you can get rerolling hit rolls of 1 with no penalty, but anything else requires you to issue the "Take Aim!" Order to a unit, which means no FRFSRF or M^3, or whatever else. Not unless you give your Warlord a specific Relic and Warlord Trait(none of which are the CP regeneration ones mind you) where on a 4+ you can chain a second Order to the same unit(Relic) and on a 4+ you can chain the Order issued to a second unit of the same type(Infantry or Tank).

Mate, i can read, thank you very much and yes the base trait allready is as powerfull as certain reroll auras, if i want to field something the likes with CSM i need to bring a chaos lord, whilest these dudes "just get it" for standing still, something guard units do fairly well, especially when they get additional mortars in their squad, mind you there is also no problem of squezing them under a aura, etc. So no this is far from beeing a missconception and also the reason why there stood a "basically".

There's no "additional mortars". You can take one Mortar in an Infantry Squad.

I feel no sympathy for people wanting to equate a fricking Regimental Trait to an HQ choice's aura.

Marmatag wrote:And also does nothing to change the current state of things.

Guardsmen with the same strength as space marines is absurd.

Come back to me when those Guardsmen have the same Toughness, Save, Leadership, and access to CCWs alongside of Weapon Skill.

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Make Voxes mandatory for Infantry squads.

Now you have 4.5 point Guardsmen, for a pretty negligible boost in power.

And also does nothing to change the current state of things.

Guardsmen with the same strength as space marines is absurd.

That's GW not allowing more space. I've made suggestions on the Proposed Rules forums to make Marines S/T 6, Guardsmen S/T 4, and so on, to make it possible for Sisters of Battle, for instance, or Catachans to be stronger than average humans but weaker than Marines.

To be fair the Cadian trait is a worse version of the DA trait, so i'm not sure that the trait is the problem.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I think that at least part of the problem with Imperial Guard isn't actually that their troops are so cheap.

I mean yes, they are amazing, powerful, and cheap. Fine. But in a pure IG list that's not so terrible.

The problem is how easy it is to add a battallion of IG troops with all their strengths and buffs to any imperial list.

Can this be done with Chaos? Not really. Adding daemon troops to a list is doable, but to do so you have to pay a heavy tax in HQ's. The good HQ's are expensive, and the cheap HQ's are terrible and not even that cheap.
Eldar are in much the same situation, though DE might have a cheap HQ (I only know Eldar and Harlequins, and their HQ's are not cheap).

IG? HQ's are good, and cheap, and make the troops you get significantly better so they're always worth their points.

If IG troops stayed the same price, but the HQ's were raised in points to be more in line with other armies so that the battallion ends up more in line with the cost of battallions from other armies, things might be a bit more balanced.

Basically it ends up coming to the same line of thought that there should be more of a tax or price for taking detachments from other armies. The problem though is that other armies already have to pay this cost, but IG doesn't (or pays much less at least).

Problem is, the way GW fixes things is shown in this new FAQ. They'll make a blanket change that taxes everyone the same, which will still mean that IG will be relatively the cheapest option, and so nothing will change.

And you are wrong, CHAOS can do that, infact chaos can get a cheaper Battalion.

R&H still exist and for 170 pts you can get 2 commanders and 30 cultists. Infact you even can out mortar IG since R&H HWT's with mortars cost less and are 6 per HWT squad.

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura, Catachan is general utility and offensive capability, with no drawback.
It's the same reason you only ever see 2-3 traits in a army. Why would you play WE in the csm Codex when you can field Alpha Legionaires?

R&H can do it slightly cheaper, but are just plain worse in every respect. HWT mortars and Marauders are the only units really worth taking, so going with vanguard or outriders are far more common.

But because they have an incomplete and heavily broken (in a bad way) index release, which seems to be in the process of being squatted, there's not really anyone who would recommend taking/buying/building an R&H detachment. Anyone who knows what they're talking about, if asked how best to run a Renegades list, will say to use the IG codex and just call it a counts-as.

And you'd take WE in the csm codex for berzerker troops obviously, as well as all those extra attacks and strength on the charge. Something AL cultists don't get. You only ever took AL cultists for the infiltration stratagem, but that no longer exists.

Iron Warriors (Warlord) or Black Legion (Abbadabaddon) are probably the best cultists now, or maybe Death Guard.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Make Voxes mandatory for Infantry squads.

Now you have 4.5 point Guardsmen, for a pretty negligible boost in power.

And also does nothing to change the current state of things.

Guardsmen with the same strength as space marines is absurd.

That's GW not allowing more space. I've made suggestions on the Proposed Rules forums to make Marines S/T 6, Guardsmen S/T 4, and so on, to make it possible for Sisters of Battle, for instance, or Catachans to be stronger than average humans but weaker than Marines.

Having the same Strength as Marines doesn't mean jack when you don't have the gear to make use of it.

Orks have the same Toughness as a Space Marine, which is imo a more relevant stat, and nobody bats an eye.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Orks have the same Toughness as a Space Marine, which is imo a more relevant stat, and nobody bats an eye.

Because being supernaturally tough is one of the defining traits of the Orks and has always been.

Guard will continue to get some negative attention, but at least a bit less than before. It's just coincidence that the generally accepted large issue at hand is command point based, and you had a simple "perfect storm" in the IG codex.

1) Cheap battalion to generate CP.
2) Free: Warlord trait to help with CP regeneration.
3) Free: Relice to help with CP stealing/regeneration

Other codices have some of these elements, but none had all of them at once. No one's blaming Guard when they play against someone with a normal fully Guard army, but they are the motor behind the crack in the game which people have identified as soup+CP+regeneration etc. The recent FAQ addressed points 2 and 3 (more or less). So, yes, now guard will be compared to other armies which can provide cheap battalions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura

Correcting a misconception. No, this is not the case.

Yeah you can get rerolling hit rolls of 1 with no penalty, but anything else requires you to issue the "Take Aim!" Order to a unit, which means no FRFSRF or M^3, or whatever else. Not unless you give your Warlord a specific Relic and Warlord Trait(none of which are the CP regeneration ones mind you) where on a 4+ you can chain a second Order to the same unit(Relic) and on a 4+ you can chain the Order issued to a second unit of the same type(Infantry or Tank).

Mate, i can read, thank you very much and yes the base trait allready is as powerfull as certain reroll auras, if i want to field something the likes with CSM i need to bring a chaos lord, whilest these dudes "just get it" for standing still, something guard units do fairly well, especially when they get additional mortars in their squad, mind you there is also no problem of squezing them under a aura, etc. So no this is far from beeing a missconception and also the reason why there stood a "basically".

There's no "additional mortars". You can take one Mortar in an Infantry Squad.

I feel no sympathy for people wanting to equate a fricking Regimental Trait to an HQ choice's aura.

Marmatag wrote:And also does nothing to change the current state of things.

Guardsmen with the same strength as space marines is absurd.

Come back to me when those Guardsmen have the same Toughness, Save, Leadership, and access to CCWs alongside of Weapon Skill.

4 attacks at S3 on a 4+ is always going to be better than 2 S4 attacks on a 3+, which is the Assault Marine, otherwise known as garbage. You can get 3 total S4 attacks with the Command Squad, but boy do both those models die quick.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Come back to me when those Guardsmen have the same Toughness, Save, Leadership, and access to CCWs alongside of Weapon Skill.

Can i come back since they have triple the attacks & can fight twice for free with orders?

How about when you have a unit of Bullgryns as functionally more durable dreadnoughts?

Triple with two buffing characters, one of which is unique.

And can fight again in the shooting phase, with only 2 attacks (Straken don’t work) assuming they’re still in combat.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Triple with two buffing characters, one of which is unique.

You have to take HQs anyway. It isn't some great burden to pay for Straken, he's very cheap.

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Triple with two buffing characters, one of which is unique.

You have to take HQs anyway. It isn't some great burden to pay for Straken, he's very cheap.

And what happens when he dies?

There goes your Orders from him and your +1A.

Marmatag wrote:Can i come back since they have triple the attacks & can fight twice for free with orders?

Nope.
A)"Fight twice for free with Orders" requires you to have already been in Combat(you have to be within 1" of an enemy unit for "Fix Bayonets")
B) You have to have all of the spacing appropriately done to get your triple attacks effect.

How about when you have a unit of Bullgryns as functionally more durable dreadnoughts?

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Orks have the same Toughness as a Space Marine, which is imo a more relevant stat, and nobody bats an eye.

Because being supernaturally tough is one of the defining traits of the Orks and has always been.

They also cost 50% more, have a worse save and are slower.....

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
How about when you have a unit of Bullgryns as functionally more durable dreadnoughts?

Kanluwen you realise how troll this response is right?

Bullgryn are a joke considering IG claim to be a "ranged" army. They're functionally better than every equivalent - Terminators, Meganobz etc

 LunarSol wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

To be fair, every edition has had this issue. You get 2-4 top armies each with a couple variations of builds that dominate, and everything else is starkly below that, with 2-4 armies being hopelessly outclassed and outdated below everything else. 6E/7E was the worst by far, but the current state of affairs is pretty close to where we were in 3E/4E/5E.

GW can never manage to balance stuff very well

To be fair, pretty much every game has this issue.

Not true, Age of Sigmar has a much more dyanamic meta, with no one faction (and definately no one list) pulling ahead. Even more obscure lists can pull ahead ahead of the common factions/lists if a new synergy is discovered.

The problem with 40k is that they dont think their new rules through and are unwilling to fix the problems that result in any meaningful way.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I think that at least part of the problem with Imperial Guard isn't actually that their troops are so cheap.

I mean yes, they are amazing, powerful, and cheap. Fine. But in a pure IG list that's not so terrible.

The problem is how easy it is to add a battallion of IG troops with all their strengths and buffs to any imperial list.

Can this be done with Chaos? Not really. Adding daemon troops to a list is doable, but to do so you have to pay a heavy tax in HQ's. The good HQ's are expensive, and the cheap HQ's are terrible and not even that cheap.
Eldar are in much the same situation, though DE might have a cheap HQ (I only know Eldar and Harlequins, and their HQ's are not cheap).

IG? HQ's are good, and cheap, and make the troops you get significantly better so they're always worth their points.

If IG troops stayed the same price, but the HQ's were raised in points to be more in line with other armies so that the battallion ends up more in line with the cost of battallions from other armies, things might be a bit more balanced.

Basically it ends up coming to the same line of thought that there should be more of a tax or price for taking detachments from other armies. The problem though is that other armies already have to pay this cost, but IG doesn't (or pays much less at least).

Problem is, the way GW fixes things is shown in this new FAQ. They'll make a blanket change that taxes everyone the same, which will still mean that IG will be relatively the cheapest option, and so nothing will change.

And you are wrong, CHAOS can do that, infact chaos can get a cheaper Battalion.

R&H still exist and for 170 pts you can get 2 commanders and 30 cultists. Infact you even can out mortar IG since R&H HWT's with mortars cost less and are 6 per HWT squad.

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura, Catachan is general utility and offensive capability, with no drawback.
It's the same reason you only ever see 2-3 traits in a army. Why would you play WE in the csm Codex when you can field Alpha Legionaires?

R&H can do it slightly cheaper, but are just plain worse in every respect. HWT mortars and Marauders are the only units really worth taking, so going with vanguard or outriders are far more common.

But because they have an incomplete and heavily broken (in a bad way) index release, which seems to be in the process of being squatted, there's not really anyone who would recommend taking/buying/building an R&H detachment. Anyone who knows what they're talking about, if asked how best to run a Renegades list, will say to use the IG codex and just call it a counts-as.

And you'd take WE in the csm codex for berzerker troops obviously, as well as all those extra attacks and strength on the charge. Something AL cultists don't get. You only ever took AL cultists for the infiltration stratagem, but that no longer exists.

Iron Warriors (Warlord) or Black Legion (Abbadabaddon) are probably the best cultists now, or maybe Death Guard.

So 10 man Cultist squads are not worth the cp they generate?
Come again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

There's no "additional mortars". You can take one Mortar in an Infantry Squad.

I feel no sympathy for people wanting to equate a fricking Regimental Trait to an HQ choice's aura.

You agree that what normaly is paid for via a Hq in form of a concrete and finite aura effect should be basically given out for free? Or that this trait is equally worth it in comparison with other IG traits? (vostroya f.e.?) Mind other factions traits?

Excuse me but that is about the most ridicoulus thing i heard.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "additional mortars". You can take one Mortar in an Infantry Squad.

I feel no sympathy for people wanting to equate a fricking Regimental Trait to an HQ choice's aura.

You agree that what normaly is paid for via a Hq in form of a concrete and finite aura effect should be basically given out for free? Or that this trait is equally worth it in comparison with other IG traits? (vostroya f.e.?) Mind other factions traits?

How many other factions have access to auras with rerolls of 1s to hit?

Also, are you really trying to say Vostroya has a bad Regimental Trait?

Excuse me but that is about the most ridicoulus thing i heard.

The ridiculous thing is you trying to downplay the fact that in order to make full use of the trait, you're required to go Infantry heavy and ignore the stronger FRFSRF Order.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Orks have the same Toughness as a Space Marine, which is imo a more relevant stat, and nobody bats an eye.

Because being supernaturally tough is one of the defining traits of the Orks and has always been.

Prior to 3rd. Orks had T3. In fact I think they had human stats with the exception of Ld, which was lower.

But also now subfactions (and not just Space Marines) get traits, so in many cases they're going to get something they didn't really have before. Back in the day, Catachans used to have bonuses for being in a forest, but GW sells very little forest terrain, and rarely do I see forests on the table anymore. . . However, them Catachan models sure are muscle-y. So S 4. I mean, factions getting a -1 to hit is pretty out of thin air too. They're just filling out a new design space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

They also cost 50% more, have a worse save and are slower.....

And 2 attacks base, higher toughness and a better gun. If you're going to do an honest unit comparison you gotta be a little more thorough than just listing the negatives.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "additional mortars". You can take one Mortar in an Infantry Squad.

I feel no sympathy for people wanting to equate a fricking Regimental Trait to an HQ choice's aura.

You agree that what normaly is paid for via a Hq in form of a concrete and finite aura effect should be basically given out for free? Or that this trait is equally worth it in comparison with other IG traits? (vostroya f.e.?) Mind other factions traits?

How many other factions have access to auras with rerolls of 1s to hit?

Also, are you really trying to say Vostroya has a bad Regimental Trait?

Excuse me but that is about the most ridicoulus thing i heard.

The ridiculous thing is you trying to downplay the fact that in order to make full use of the trait, you're required to go Infantry heavy and ignore the stronger FRFSRF Order.

You DON'T NEED THE FULL REROLL you therefore still can use FRFSRF and rerolls on the 1's which, surprise, is what other factions need to buy expensive Hq's for. And this trait is not even an HQ aura, all units of infantry profit from it and you don't have a Hq tax to fill for it or need to concern yourself with positioning everything in range of a Hq.

And yes even internally vostroya does not come close to cadia or catachan. Internal trait balance is anyways off regardless what codex faction you look at.

Not Online!!! wrote:

You DON'T NEED THE FULL REROLL you therefore still can use FRFSRF and rerolls on the 1's which, surprise, is what other factions need to buy expensive Hq's for. And this trait is not even an HQ aura, all units of infantry profit from it and you don't have a Hq tax to fill for it or need to concern yourself with positioning everything in range of a Hq.

So which is it: is it a tax or not? Why should I have my Regimental bonus being something other factions get by simply bringing an HQ?

The argument works both ways. A Regimental bonus should be something worthwhile, in the case of Cadia it's an across the board rerolling hit rolls of 1 when stationary with Infantry units being able to get an Order to grant rerolls to all Hit rolls.

And yes even internally vostroya does not come close to cadia or catachan. Internal trait balance is anyways off regardless what codex faction you look at.

Er no. Vostroya has made appearances in tournament lists. It just isn't in soup lists.

Shock! Gasp!

And seriously, downplaying that extra range is hysterical considering it's one of the reasons a certain Tau Sept gets chosen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

You DON'T NEED THE FULL REROLL you therefore still can use FRFSRF and rerolls on the 1's which, surprise, is what other factions need to buy expensive Hq's for. And this trait is not even an HQ aura, all units of infantry profit from it and you don't have a Hq tax to fill for it or need to concern yourself with positioning everything in range of a Hq.

So which is it: is it a tax or not? Why should I have my Regimental bonus being something other factions get by simply bringing an HQ?

The argument works both ways. A Regimental bonus should be something worthwhile, in the case of Cadia it's an across the board rerolling hit rolls of 1 when stationary with Infantry units being able to get an Order to grant rerolls to all Hit rolls.

And yes even internally vostroya does not come close to cadia or catachan. Internal trait balance is anyways off regardless what codex faction you look at.

Er no. Vostroya has made appearances in tournament lists. It just isn't in soup lists.

Shock! Gasp!

And seriously, downplaying that extra range is hysterical considering it's one of the reasons a certain Tau Sept gets chosen.

Scuse me but toptables are soup and what trait is not in soup? Vostroya, and Co KG.

One is a bubble, the other is army wide, which one is more flexible? cheaper?