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Insectum7 wrote:
Prior to 3rd. Orks had T3. In fact I think they had human stats with the exception of Ld, which was lower.

For the record Orks have always had T4. Even in 2nd and Rogue Trader. They had M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld7, Which was one higher Toughness and 1 lower Initiative than a human. For the Zulu movie inspired scenario at the tale end of 2nd they made them WS4 and BS2, and they kept it that way for 3rd ed onwards.

I think one of the major reason why only Cadian and Catachan regiments are seen, is because models for the other regiments are not easily available. With the default models being Cadian or Catachan, people will default there regiment to Cadian or Catachan.

Tygre wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
Prior to 3rd. Orks had T3. In fact I think they had human stats with the exception of Ld, which was lower.

For the record Orks have always had T4. Even in 2nd and Rogue Trader. They had M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld7, Which was one higher Toughness and 1 lower Initiative than a human. For the Zulu movie inspired scenario at the tale end of 2nd they made them WS4 and BS2, and they kept it that way for 3rd ed onwards..

Hup! You're right. I was thinking the shift in statline from 2nd to 3rd was more dramatic than it was.

Actually Stormboyz had T3, since they were young "rebellious" orks.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

You DON'T NEED THE FULL REROLL you therefore still can use FRFSRF and rerolls on the 1's which, surprise, is what other factions need to buy expensive Hq's for. And this trait is not even an HQ aura, all units of infantry profit from it and you don't have a Hq tax to fill for it or need to concern yourself with positioning everything in range of a Hq.

So which is it: is it a tax or not? Why should I have my Regimental bonus being something other factions get by simply bringing an HQ?

The argument works both ways. A Regimental bonus should be something worthwhile, in the case of Cadia it's an across the board rerolling hit rolls of 1 when stationary with Infantry units being able to get an Order to grant rerolls to all Hit rolls.

And yes even internally vostroya does not come close to cadia or catachan. Internal trait balance is anyways off regardless what codex faction you look at.

Er no. Vostroya has made appearances in tournament lists. It just isn't in soup lists.

Shock! Gasp!

And seriously, downplaying that extra range is hysterical considering it's one of the reasons a certain Tau Sept gets chosen.

Yeah I'm curious who said Vostroya wasn't a good choice. Much better than Armageddon (which has less practical use than Vostroya) and Tallarn (which is a bit too specific for Infantry which are typically camping, but the Vehicle trait is okay I guess).

Kanluwen using the word "downplaying" as though he isn't the poster child for the word is hilarious

Is this the first instance in the history of the game that a SM unit is getting nerfed because a BA unit is too strong? My Iron Hands Smash Captain is playing some sad trombone right now.

Median Trace wrote:
Is this the first instance in the history of the game that a SM unit is getting nerfed because a BA unit is too strong? My Iron Hands Smash Captain is playing some sad trombone right now.

It isn't the first time people get mad at the wrong thing. This is the forum with people opposed to Relics because of only one that was complained about in 7th (The Shield Eternal). If one thing is broken, then something else is to blame instead for...reasons.

Which is kinda the point of this thread, really. People are blaming allies instead of the gak internal balance that still exists with every codex written.

Guard are not broken, dont drag a good codex down because your own codex suck.

 Smirrors wrote:
Guard are not broken, dont drag a good codex down because your own codex suck.

"We're not overpowered, it's just that every other book in the game is too weak!"

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
Guard are not broken, dont drag a good codex down because your own codex suck.

"We're not overpowered, it's just that every other book in the game is too weak!"

That argument might hold water if guard were unarguably the strongest mono-codex. Eldar, DE, some tyranid and tau builds are on par with mono-guard, and both eldar and DE are arguably even stronger than mono-guard. Mono-Guard are even worse when you start considering soup lists... and guard's presence in soup is limited to being CP batteries and meatshields for stronger units, not because they are good at killing things.

Guard is one of the better codices this edition, I don't think anyone is debating that. To the extent that they need to be nerfed down to SM level? No. Sorry, SM are a dumpster fire this edition because they translated poorly with the new AP and wound system. They are not a good measuring stick for a "balanced" faction.

Astra Militarum is the top mono dex of imperium, not of the game. Let's not mix these 2 things.

Spoletta wrote:
Astra Militarum is the top mono dex of imperium, not of the game. Let's not mix these 2 things.

I would say you are correct, with the caveat that there are some codices like IK that are stronger but that cannot exist outside of soup.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It is interesting to note that we basically never see Steel Legion, Mordians, etc these days.

When you have better free rules why would you? The moment GW decided these traits are free you could be sure one or two would always stand out.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Prior to 3rd. Orks had T3. In fact I think they had human stats with the exception of Ld, which was lower.

But also now subfactions (and not just Space Marines) get traits, so in many cases they're going to get something they didn't really have before. Back in the day, Catachans used to have bonuses for being in a forest, but GW sells very little forest terrain, and rarely do I see forests on the table anymore. . . However, them Catachan models sure are muscle-y. So S 4. I mean, factions getting a -1 to hit is pretty out of thin air too. They're just filling out a new design space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

They also cost 50% more, have a worse save and are slower.....

And 2 attacks base, higher toughness and a better gun. If you're going to do an honest unit comparison you gotta be a little more thorough than just listing the negatives.

Lol, so many wrong statements in one post. Orks had Space Marine stats prior to 3rd. The same BS even. They've always had T4. They had a worse save and LD.

I didn't list 'just the negatives' mate. They have worse BS (which means that "better" gun performs worse). They have less range. They do not have rapid fire.

Did I mention they are 50% more expensive? So for every 2 Boyz there are 3 Infantry? Which means for every 2 Boyz Infantry have +1 wound.

w1zard wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra Militarum is the top mono dex of imperium, not of the game. Let's not mix these 2 things.

I would say you are correct, with the caveat that there are some codices like IK that are stronger but that cannot exist outside of soup.

IK worked just fine outside of soup untill the FAQ.
Now Guard Cp farms are mandatory as the CP costs of Knights strategums are way to high when your paying knight points per CP.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lol, so many wrong statements in one post. Orks had Space Marine stats prior to 3rd. The same BS even. They've always had T4. They had a worse save and LD.

Let's look into this, shall we?

Stat line format: M / WS / BS / S / T / W / I / A / Ld [Int / Cl / WP]

Original SM Stats (Source: Rogue Trader) 4/4/4/4/3/1/4/1/8 [8/8/8]
Updated SM Stats (Source: Warhammer 40,000 Compilation) 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8 [8/8/8]
2nd edition SM Stats (Source: Codex Ultramarines) 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8
3rd edition SM Stats (Source: Codex Space Marines) -/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8

Original Ork Boy Stats (Source: 'Ere We Go!) 4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7 [6/7/7]
2nd edition Ork Boy Stats (Source: Codex Orks) 4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7
3rd edition Ork Boy Stats (Source: Codex Orks) -/4/2/3/4/1/2/2/7

...some of these books are a little dusty.

So, both of you are wrong. It is interesting to note that the original Space Marine statline had them with a lower Toughness than your basic Ork, though this changed during Rogue Trader and well before 2nd edition. Prior to 3rd edition, they were rocking the same WS/BS as Imperial Guard, before this got altered to give them more of a CC focus.

I do find the missing mental stats interesting - Orks had 2 points less Intelligence than Space Marines, while only 1 point lower than them for Cool and Willpower - I wonder where modern Orks would rank?

w1zard wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
Guard are not broken, dont drag a good codex down because your own codex suck.

"We're not overpowered, it's just that every other book in the game is too weak!"

That argument might hold water if guard were unarguably the strongest mono-codex. Eldar, DE, some tyranid and tau builds are on par with mono-guard, and both eldar and DE are arguably even stronger than mono-guard. Mono-Guard are even worse when you start considering soup lists... and guard's presence in soup is limited to being CP batteries and meatshields for stronger units, not because they are good at killing things.

Guard is one of the better codices this edition, I don't think anyone is debating that. To the extent that they need to be nerfed down to SM level? No. Sorry, SM are a dumpster fire this edition because they translated poorly with the new AP and wound system. They are not a good measuring stick for a "balanced" faction.

That is really untrue. Mono gaurd is basically the best vs mono armies.

You can basically run a version of the uber castellan list just by subbing a few options. Castellan becomes some sort of baneblade varient (or multiple russ commanders) and instead of smash captains you take artillery or scions...It's not even an unquestionably worse list. LOL. I face lists like this all the time - they are practically unstoppable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
Guard are not broken, dont drag a good codex down because your own codex suck.

"We're not overpowered, it's just that every other book in the game is too weak!"

That argument might hold water if guard were unarguably the strongest mono-codex. Eldar, DE, some tyranid and tau builds are on par with mono-guard, and both eldar and DE are arguably even stronger than mono-guard. Mono-Guard are even worse when you start considering soup lists... and guard's presence in soup is limited to being CP batteries and meatshields for stronger units, not because they are good at killing things.

Guard is one of the better codices this edition, I don't think anyone is debating that. To the extent that they need to be nerfed down to SM level? No. Sorry, SM are a dumpster fire this edition because they translated poorly with the new AP and wound system. They are not a good measuring stick for a "balanced" faction.

That is really untrue. Mono gaurd is basically the best vs mono armies.

You can basically run a version of the uber castellan list just by subbing a few options. Castellan becomes some sort of baneblade varient (or multiple russ commanders) and instead of smash captains you take artillery or scions...It's not even an unquestionably worse list. LOL. I face lists like this all the time - they are practically unstoppable.

Why is it that we have not seen mono guard reguarly toping tournaments then but have seen an equal if not greater amount of top 10s with mono DE and knights? Mono guard is undeniably one of the top mono codexes but actual data would push me to believe its on equal footing as several other options. Heck, we have even seen more mono blue SM lists top tournaments as of late then mono guard.

How can you, with authority, give a statement about all of the monofaction armies in this game? What a silly thread this has become. What we do know is that *essentially* mono guard and straight up mono-guard can compete with soup armies. No other codex does this.

 Marmatag wrote:
How can you, with authority, give a statement about all of the monofaction armies in this game? What a silly thread this has become. What we do know is that *essentially* mono guard and straight up mono-guard can compete with soup armies. No other codex does this.

Haven't Tau been placing higher than Guard in tournaments, without soup?

 Marmatag wrote:
How can you, with authority, give a statement about all of the monofaction armies in this game? What a silly thread this has become. What we do know is that *essentially* mono guard and straight up mono-guard can compete with soup armies. No other codex does this.

Tournament data shows that you are wrong. You can go pull up more mono SM armies that have finished top spots (UM/Gilliman build) more Mono knight builds and more mono DE builds. there have been either 2-3 mono guard top spot finishes since the rule of 3 at all major GTs. You can look up more or equal mono finishes for several different armies.

To me it's ridiculous that mono guard is always made to be this unstoppable monster but the data simply doesn't show that. It is incredibly easy to counter as the second you run into a -1 to hit army (there are a ton) your win percentage falls through the floor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
How can you, with authority, give a statement about all of the monofaction armies in this game? What a silly thread this has become. What we do know is that *essentially* mono guard and straight up mono-guard can compete with soup armies. No other codex does this.

Haven't Tau been placing higher than Guard in tournaments, without soup?

Yes but we are supposed to ignore that because soup IG kills tau

Ice_can wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra Militarum is the top mono dex of imperium, not of the game. Let's not mix these 2 things.

I would say you are correct, with the caveat that there are some codices like IK that are stronger but that cannot exist outside of soup.

IK worked just fine outside of soup untill the FAQ.
Now Guard Cp farms are mandatory as the CP costs of Knights strategums are way to high when your paying knight points per CP.

Well - it's really not that bad. You just gotta count the Castellan out - too expensive to run (it was before anyways)

Think the list I've been fooling with is
Crusader
Gallant
Gallant

Perceptor
2x Armiger

12 CP is more than enough to run that list. It is reasonably strong too - 1 problem - smash capatains are still OP as feth.

 Dysartes wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lol, so many wrong statements in one post. Orks had Space Marine stats prior to 3rd. The same BS even. They've always had T4. They had a worse save and LD.

Let's look into this, shall we?

Stat line format: M / WS / BS / S / T / W / I / A / Ld [Int / Cl / WP]

Original SM Stats (Source: Rogue Trader) 4/4/4/4/3/1/4/1/8 [8/8/8]
Updated SM Stats (Source: Warhammer 40,000 Compilation) 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8 [8/8/8]
2nd edition SM Stats (Source: Codex Ultramarines) 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8
3rd edition SM Stats (Source: Codex Space Marines) -/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8

Original Ork Boy Stats (Source: 'Ere We Go!) 4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7 [6/7/7]
2nd edition Ork Boy Stats (Source: Codex Orks) 4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7
3rd edition Ork Boy Stats (Source: Codex Orks) -/4/2/3/4/1/2/2/7

...some of these books are a little dusty.

So, both of you are wrong. It is interesting to note that the original Space Marine statline had them with a lower Toughness than your basic Ork, though this changed during Rogue Trader and well before 2nd edition. Prior to 3rd edition, they were rocking the same WS/BS as Imperial Guard, before this got altered to give them more of a CC focus.

I do find the missing mental stats interesting - Orks had 2 points less Intelligence than Space Marines, while only 1 point lower than them for Cool and Willpower - I wonder where modern Orks would rank?

TIL that original 40k had a 'cool' stat.

I can only assume it's meant to be like "keeping your cool under pressure", but I prefer to believe that it's actually a hidden Fonz stat.

Tau has not been finishing ahead of Guard, though? That may change post FAQ. Tau are very solid though, despite the fact that their fanbase is generally just horrible.

And I've seen the data mines, as well as follow BoK. Additionally, I know people going to these tournaments. I've seen the lists both on the table top as well as in text form.

Niiru wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lol, so many wrong statements in one post. Orks had Space Marine stats prior to 3rd. The same BS even. They've always had T4. They had a worse save and LD.

Let's look into this, shall we?

Stat line format: M / WS / BS / S / T / W / I / A / Ld [Int / Cl / WP]

Original SM Stats (Source: Rogue Trader) 4/4/4/4/3/1/4/1/8 [8/8/8]
Updated SM Stats (Source: Warhammer 40,000 Compilation) 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8 [8/8/8]
2nd edition SM Stats (Source: Codex Ultramarines) 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8
3rd edition SM Stats (Source: Codex Space Marines) -/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8

Original Ork Boy Stats (Source: 'Ere We Go!) 4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7 [6/7/7]
2nd edition Ork Boy Stats (Source: Codex Orks) 4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7
3rd edition Ork Boy Stats (Source: Codex Orks) -/4/2/3/4/1/2/2/7

...some of these books are a little dusty.

So, both of you are wrong. It is interesting to note that the original Space Marine statline had them with a lower Toughness than your basic Ork, though this changed during Rogue Trader and well before 2nd edition. Prior to 3rd edition, they were rocking the same WS/BS as Imperial Guard, before this got altered to give them more of a CC focus.

I do find the missing mental stats interesting - Orks had 2 points less Intelligence than Space Marines, while only 1 point lower than them for Cool and Willpower - I wonder where modern Orks would rank?

TIL that original 40k had a 'cool' stat.

I can only assume it's meant to be like "keeping your cool under pressure", but I prefer to believe that it's actually a hidden Fonz stat.

Yeah, GW rolled Intelligence, Cool (calm under fire), and Leadership (ability to lead), into just the one Ld stat.

Hence why we ended up with Stubborn Ogryn supposedly nearly fearless in the face of danger sporting...Ld6 for two editions

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau has not been finishing ahead of Guard, though? That may change post FAQ. Tau are very solid though, despite the fact that their fanbase is generally just horrible.

And I've seen the data mines, as well as follow BoK. Additionally, I know people going to these tournaments. I've seen the lists both on the table top as well as in text form.

Mono tau has finished ahead of mono guard in lots of major GTs. Guard soup finishes ahead of tau in almost every instance

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Prior to 3rd. Orks had T3. In fact I think they had human stats with the exception of Ld, which was lower.

But also now subfactions (and not just Space Marines) get traits, so in many cases they're going to get something they didn't really have before. Back in the day, Catachans used to have bonuses for being in a forest, but GW sells very little forest terrain, and rarely do I see forests on the table anymore. . . However, them Catachan models sure are muscle-y. So S 4. I mean, factions getting a -1 to hit is pretty out of thin air too. They're just filling out a new design space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

They also cost 50% more, have a worse save and are slower.....

And 2 attacks base, higher toughness and a better gun. If you're going to do an honest unit comparison you gotta be a little more thorough than just listing the negatives.

Lol, so many wrong statements in one post. Orks had Space Marine stats prior to 3rd. The same BS even. They've always had T4. They had a worse save and LD.

As shown above, yes I was off, which I acknowledged, but Space Marine stats? That's even further off. Nobs had WS4 BS4 S3, which was closer, but boys were still WS3 BS3 S3 etc.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I didn't list 'just the negatives' mate. They have worse BS (which means that "better" gun performs worse). They have less range. They do not have rapid fire.

They don't have Raid Fire, they have Assault 2, which is better. I'd also argue that S 4 wins out even with lower BS in most circumstances. No acknowledgement of T4 and 2 Attacks I suppose, not listing the positives is about the same as listing only negatives. At any rate, the whole picture wasn't given.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Did I mention they are 50% more expensive? So for every 2 Boyz there are 3 Infantry? Which means for every 2 Boyz Infantry have +1 wound.

Very different units. We don't even know if boyz will stay at 6. I'm looking forward to seeing how Orks get adjusted in their book.

Tau are very competitive. The list that are very competitive are a little ugly (3 Coldstar commanders, Riptides+gakton of drones, etc...), but all top-tier competitive lists are.

They can't win, because they can't win agaisnt Soup reliably enough to win tournaments. How good is ultra-competitive tau lists vs ultra-competitive mono guard/mono DE lists? Nobody knows because nobody plays them where you see those Tau lists.

 Galas wrote:
Tau are very competitive. The list that are very competitive are a little ugly (3 Coldstar commanders, Riptides+gakton of drones, etc...), but all top-tier competitive lists are.

They can't win, because they can't win agaisnt Soup reliably enough to win tournaments. How good is ultra-competitive tau lists vs ultra-competitive mono guard/mono DE lists? Nobody knows because nobody plays them where you see those Tau lists.

Not surprsied that a resident Tau player doesn't understand all of the builds available to him, and tries to underplay his very strong codex. Check the list of the guy who won best Tau player at BAO. His name is Izrael and he runs something completely different.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Tau are very competitive. The list that are very competitive are a little ugly (3 Coldstar commanders, Riptides+gakton of drones, etc...), but all top-tier competitive lists are.

They can't win, because they can't win agaisnt Soup reliably enough to win tournaments. How good is ultra-competitive tau lists vs ultra-competitive mono guard/mono DE lists? Nobody knows because nobody plays them where you see those Tau lists.

Not surprsied that a resident Tau player doesn't understand all of the builds available to him, and tries to underplay his very strong codex. Check the list of the guy who won best Tau player at BAO. His name is Izrael and he runs something completely different.

I wasn't trying to underplay anything. I also know about Firewarrior spam and Longstrike+Ion Cannon Hammerheads (Of course, you can combine all of those in different ways), but I thought the most competitive lists where the ones spamming suits and drones. I wasn't tryng to say that our codex is not good, it was honest ignorance about all the succesfull Tau lists that are ran, as I have said many times, we don't play ITC here, so our meta and most common competitive lists are quite different even if theres some general trends that are shared
. I like the Tau codex, and I find that most of it is strong, usable and competitive. But in the most competitive scene, TOP 10's, etc... the list of options is narrowed for everybody.
Do you have a link to that list, or the list?

But I'll point out that you have come as very pedantic and combative for no real reason.

Coldstars with fusions are cute - but they aren't that great. I include 1 with 3 fusions and a supernova launcher just in case I just have to make a trade or cap an objective.

The best commander is actually a 3 rocket ATS or 4 rocket commander IMO. The range is essential. (basically a chaplain dread that can move and shoot and still hit on 2's with 4x autocannons (chaplain dreads can only take 2x auto cannons) plus he still provides supporting overwatch fire.

Mainly hes better than even CIB commanders because he can shoot turn 1 and still call Kayoun for your army. Turn 1 if you need it. So - compare 16 shots in 2 turns from rocket commander to 12 shots in 1 turn from CIB commander (yeah CIB commander shoots turn 1 it's dead AF (something you learn from actually playing the game).