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 Kanluwen wrote:

What the hell else are they supposed to bring? Tank Commanders and Conscripts? Company Commanders and Leman Russes? Tempestor Primes and Veterans?

Sure. If there is multiple options in an army for specific slot, yet only one option is used most of the time then it is a sign that the internal balance is fethed. And it is. And of course this extends to whole Imperium faction, Infantry Squads are not only the flat out best troop option available to Guard, they're the flat out best troop option available to Imperium as a whole. This doesn't mean they need to be nerfed to ground and become unusable, but the balance needs to addressed.

Do you not understand the mechanics of how Guard works? Is that the problem?

I understand just fine. I have a small Guard army. And couple of other armies. So I am pretty well aware of the power discrepancies. For example when you start allying Guard to vanilla marines, from competitive perspective there is really no reason to not just ditch the marines altogether. The reason why I don't do so has everything to do with me wanting to use my painstakingly painted marine models and nothing to do with the performance of the units.

Except you're not talking about nerfing those specific units. You're continually focused upon nerfing Infantry Squads for some moronic reason. You're continually focused upon nerfing the Guard element while ignoring that it literally only gets taken to provide a pool of Command Points for the actual heavy lifting.

The math of why guardsmen are too good to be 4ppm has been presented several times, but as you're immune to both math and reason it is futile to go over it again. And I am not against nerfing other problem units, I'm all for it. And BA captain, Custodes biker captain and Castellan all already got nerfed (though I'm not sure nerfing the fly was a good way to address the issue with flying captains) and I except to see further nerfs in CA; Castellan will probably get a point bump.

"Kindergarten". If you want to play the insult game, I'll play the correcting your grammar game.

Sure. If it makes you happy.

And yet we see an overrepresentation of those "specific overperforming combos", now don't we?

In tournaments, of course. If something offers even a tiny advantage over other options it gets taken. But most people don't play tournament net lists and most ally use is not for such purposes. Thus it would be unwise to issue blanket nerfs that along with those top builds would hurt many completely unproblematic builds.

Considering the BA unit is a single character build and not the basic frigging infantry unit of the army?

Yup. You're damn right it's fine to nerf the unit.

Yet it was the only unit keeping the struggling army afloat. So you're basically for killing BA as even remotely competitively viable army. A bit odd stance if you claim to care about monoarmies...

I mean, I think that it needed a nerf, but so does some of the guard stuff, and underperforming units in both armies need a buff.

Oh and if you want to talk hypocrisy?

So yeah. Guard players are taking Company Commanders and Infantry Squads. Because there's not a whole hell of a lot of options for HQs that actually let the army function as intended(read: Orders) when selecting Infantry Squads.

Guard is one of the armies with most options. Sure, they're not the Space Marines, but they've got more stuff than many other armies. If it feels to you that there is really is no choice as many units are just not worth taking, guess what, it is the crap internal balance. Nerf OP units, buff bad units, and presto: there is more choice as all units are worth using!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Infantry Squad cannot be touched unless it is part of a comprehensive overhaul of the Guard book. It is basically the only functioning <Regiment> infantry(little i) unit in the Guard. Heavy Weapon Squads come close, but Special Weapon Squads? Who takes those? Conscripts? Veterans?

Then it needs to be done! Yes, nerf the infantry squads, buff those other things! This needs to happen, they all should be usable!

 JNAProductions wrote:
So no love for making Voxes mandatory in Infantry Squads?

45 points for very little increase in power, as compared to 40 points as they are now.

I'm not opposed to it, but I think people are overfocusing on infantry squads. Even if they just simply go up to 5ppm, I don't think that's going to change anything in the metagame with regards to allies. Most lists will find an easy 30pts to cut.

More fundamentally, Guard just don't fit the structure most other armies do. There was a reason that Guard had Platoons in previous editions, the FoC structure just didn't work well with armies based around *lots* of distinct small cheap units, as opposed to a few large units composed of lots of cheap dudes. We're running into the same issue here, albeit in reverse (in previous editions, it was possible without the platoon structure to just not have enough troops slots, now it's possible to far too easily fill them out when paired with other factions).

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

What the hell else are they supposed to bring? Tank Commanders and Conscripts? Company Commanders and Leman Russes? Tempestor Primes and Veterans?

Sure. If there is multiple options in an army for specific slot, yet only one option is used most of the time then it is a sign that the internal balance is fethed. And it is. And of course this extends to whole Imperium faction, Infantry Squads are not only the flat out best troop option available to Guard, they're the flat out best troop option available to Imperium as a whole. This doesn't mean they need to be nerfed to ground and become unusable, but the balance needs to addressed.

Do you not understand the mechanics of how Guard works? Is that the problem?

I understand just fine. I have a small Guard army. And couple of other armies. So I am pretty well aware of the power discrepancies. For example when you start allying Guard to vanilla marines, from competitive perspective there is really no reason to not just ditch the marines altogether. The reason why I don't do so has everything to do with me wanting to use my painstakingly painted marine models and nothing to do with the performance of the units.

I don't think you actually do understand.

You keep talking about "power discrepancies" and other nonsense. You LITERALLY CANNOT USE CERTAIN THINGS TOGETHER.
If I take Scions, I cannot issue them Orders unless I take a Tempestor Prime. If I take Scions, they cannot get their Regimental bonus if there is anything(including Auxilia!) without the Tempestus keywords.
If I take a Tank Commander? He cannot issue Orders to Infantry.
If I take a Company Commander? Cannot issue Orders to tanks.
Veterans as the core of the army via a Vanguard Detachment? No Objective Secured!

Oh and if you want to talk hypocrisy?

So yeah. Guard players are taking Company Commanders and Infantry Squads. Because there's not a whole hell of a lot of options for HQs that actually let the army function as intended(read: Orders) when selecting Infantry Squads.

Guard is one of the armies with most options. Sure, they're not the Space Marines, but they've got more stuff than many other armies. If it feels to you that there is really is no choice as many units are just not worth taking, guess what, it is the crap internal balance. Nerf OP units, buff bad units, and presto: there is more choice as all units are worth using!

It feels to me "that there is really no choice" because the army functions in a specific manner.

I can't take Tank Commanders with Infantry alone and expect to have a functioning army. Tank Commanders don't give out an aura, they issue Tank Orders. I can't take Company Commanders with Tanks alone and expect to have a functioning army. I can't expect to take a Tempestor Prime and have a functioning army. I can't expect to take Veterans and have Objective Secured.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So we can't hit a troop choice because of no reason?

It's like you constantly ignore the fact that I've made suggestions as to how to dramatically alter the Troop choice without simply hiking up the points.

Let's face a single fact here, people:
The Infantry Squad cannot be touched unless it is part of a comprehensive overhaul of the Guard book. It is basically the only functioning <Regiment> infantry(little i) unit in the Guard. Heavy Weapon Squads come close, but Special Weapon Squads? Who takes those? Conscripts? Veterans?

Ratlings, Bullgryns, Scions all function as they should be(and the Bullgryn change was needed IMO) but they are Auxilias not <Regiment>.

That would've been the same argument that Space Wolves players would've used to argue their Grey Hunters shouldn't be touched: what about the rest of the codex, or the other troop choice Blood Claws?

The fact of the matter is that Conscripts HAD to be hit. Now, is the new 4 points too much? Absolutely, but literally nobody has denied that. Then we already know Vets need a fix and we have ways to do it. Until then, it's already proven that Infantry at 4 points outperform several troop choices and they need to be tuned down. I'm not gonna want to nerf them so hard to make them 5 points (which is why I always propose a flat 45 for the squad, and then the vox you may or may not buy makes it a cool 50), but there ARE adjustments that need to be made.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I don't think you actually do understand.

You keep talking about "power discrepancies" and other nonsense. You LITERALLY CANNOT USE CERTAIN THINGS TOGETHER.

You literally can use all those thing you mention together.

If I take Scions, I cannot issue them Orders unless I take a Tempestor Prime. If I take Scions, they cannot get their Regimental bonus if there is anything(including Auxilia!) without the Tempestus keywords.

So. Put them in separate detachment.

If I take a Tank Commander? He cannot issue Orders to Infantry.

So take tanks with them.

If I take a Company Commander? Cannot issue Orders to tanks.

So take infantry with them. IG stuff is so cheap you can put all these things in one army easily. Also, all of these issues are exactly the sort of problems any soup army faces.

Veterans as the core of the army via a Vanguard Detachment? No Objective Secured!

So? Neither do elites of other armies.

It's going to be awesome when Chapter Approved rolls around and Guardsmen stay 4 ppm.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's going to be awesome when Chapter Approved rolls around and Guardsmen stay 4 ppm.

And Scions get brought down to 8 or 7 ppm.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So we can't hit a troop choice because of no reason?

It's like you constantly ignore the fact that I've made suggestions as to how to dramatically alter the Troop choice without simply hiking up the points.

Let's face a single fact here, people:
The Infantry Squad cannot be touched unless it is part of a comprehensive overhaul of the Guard book. It is basically the only functioning <Regiment> infantry(little i) unit in the Guard. Heavy Weapon Squads come close, but Special Weapon Squads? Who takes those? Conscripts? Veterans?

Ratlings, Bullgryns, Scions all function as they should be(and the Bullgryn change was needed IMO) but they are Auxilias not <Regiment>.

That would've been the same argument that Space Wolves players would've used to argue their Grey Hunters shouldn't be touched: what about the rest of the codex, or the other troop choice Blood Claws?

Except again, thanks to the way the codex is designed Guard literally cannot rely on a core mechanic of the army that people like yourself love to harp on as being so much better than Auras when taking anything other than Infantry Squads.

Conscripts are 50:50 on receiving Orders and Scions require a Tempestor Prime. HWS and SWS require an Officer to be within Orders range since they can't take voxes.
Auxilia units can't take Orders, barring the Scions and their Tempestor Primes.

The fact of the matter is that Conscripts HAD to be hit. Now, is the new 4 points too much? Absolutely, but literally nobody has denied that.

Sure, nobody has denied it--but they also don't acknowledge that Conscripts had to be hit not solely because of their presence in Guard armies but in soup lists.

Then we already know Vets need a fix and we have ways to do it. Until then, it's already proven that Infantry at 4 points outperform several troop choices and they need to be tuned down. I'm not gonna want to nerf them so hard to make them 5 points (which is why I always propose a flat 45 for the squad, and then the vox you may or may not buy makes it a cool 50), but there ARE adjustments that need to be made.

Like I said, no matter how much you play around with points there will always be some reason to nerf them from people.

Guard, as a codex, needs to be rewritten from the ground up. There's a lot of mechanical issues that need to be addressed before I will remotely say that "I'm okay with raising Guard to 5pts". I'm hoping that the Voidsmen and some of the rules in Kill Team are a testbed for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

You literally can use all those thing you mention together.
So. Put them in separate detachment.
So take tanks with them.
So take infantry with them. IG stuff is so cheap you can put all these things in one army easily. Also, all of these issues are exactly the sort of problems any soup army faces.
So? Neither do elites of other armies.

And this tells me everything I need to know.

YOU argued that Company Commanders and Infantry Squads are being overrepresented because they're OP. I tried to address your argument in a way that assumed you didn't know that mechanically they're the only way for the units to function.

Now I know that you're just more interested in arguing and either don't know or don't actually care that the mechanics of the army don't allow for these things to function in the way the army is supposed to function, thanks to the way Orders are setup.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So we can't hit a troop choice because of no reason?

It's like you constantly ignore the fact that I've made suggestions as to how to dramatically alter the Troop choice without simply hiking up the points.

Let's face a single fact here, people:
The Infantry Squad cannot be touched unless it is part of a comprehensive overhaul of the Guard book. It is basically the only functioning <Regiment> infantry(little i) unit in the Guard. Heavy Weapon Squads come close, but Special Weapon Squads? Who takes those? Conscripts? Veterans?

Ratlings, Bullgryns, Scions all function as they should be(and the Bullgryn change was needed IMO) but they are Auxilias not <Regiment>.

That would've been the same argument that Space Wolves players would've used to argue their Grey Hunters shouldn't be touched: what about the rest of the codex, or the other troop choice Blood Claws?

Except again, thanks to the way the codex is designed Guard literally cannot rely on a core mechanic of the army that people like yourself love to harp on as being so much better than Auras.

Conscripts are 50:50 on receiving Orders and Scions require a Tempestor Prime. HWS and SWS require an Officer to be within Orders range since they can't take voxes.
Auxilia units can't take Orders, barring the Scions and their Tempestor Primes.

The fact of the matter is that Conscripts HAD to be hit. Now, is the new 4 points too much? Absolutely, but literally nobody has denied that.

Sure, nobody has denied it--but they also don't acknowledge that Conscripts had to be hit not because of their presence in Guard armies but in soup lists.

Then we already know Vets need a fix and we have ways to do it. Until then, it's already proven that Infantry at 4 points outperform several troop choices and they need to be tuned down. I'm not gonna want to nerf them so hard to make them 5 points (which is why I always propose a flat 45 for the squad, and then the vox you may or may not buy makes it a cool 50), but there ARE adjustments that need to be made.

Like I said, no matter how much you play around with points there will always be some reason to nerf them from people.

Guard, as a codex, needs to be rewritten from the ground up. There's a lot of mechanical issues that need to be addressed before I will remotely say that "I'm okay with raising Guard to 5pts". I'm hoping that the Voidsmen and some of the rules in Kill Team are a testbed for this.

First of all, Conscripts HAD to be hit because 40 dudes with a save that doesn't just get ignored that don't run away is broken whether it's with allies or not. You can't deny that.
Secondly, if you wanted Scions pure of course you need their own officer to make them take orders. That's why they ended up with their own codex in 6th. Whether or not it was actually necessary is of course up for discussion.
Thirdly, as far as I'm aware you couldn't use Commanders to give tanks Orders anyway.
Fourthly, we already know which units are underperforming and I'm sure we have good ideas to fix them. I made my proposal for Vets already, for example (though how to fine tune the Chimera will require arguing). However, that doesn't mean other things don't need to be brought down. Roboute going up in cost was absolutely necessary even though the rest of the codex sucks, right? You agreed Slamguinus needed to be hit, yes? Why is it all the sudden YOUR unit is to be exempt?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

First of all, Conscripts HAD to be hit because 40 dudes with a save that doesn't just get ignored that don't run away is broken whether it's with allies or not. You can't deny that.

It's a 5+ save. I'd like to point out I've said they should go to a 6+ multiple times.
I'd also like to point out that I argued for Commissars' abilities to potentially 'miscast' on the Conscripts and have the Conscripts shoot back at them--but leaving it to work 'as intended' for Infantry/Veteran Squads.
I've also argued for them to be reclassified as Auxilia--meaning no Regimental Traits or ability to receive Orders.

It's also worth mentioning that it wasn't "40 dudes with a save". It was commonly 50, because that was the unit cap. It was reduced to 30 models tops, starting at 20, when the Codex came out.

Secondly, if you wanted Scions pure of course you need their own officer to make them take orders. That's why they ended up with their own codex in 6th. Whether or not it was actually necessary is of course up for discussion.

Not true. Scions could take Orders from Regimental Officers in the previous book. There was nothing preventing a Regimental Officer from issuing an Order to Scion Squads, but the Tempestor Prime only was available in the Tempestus Platoons for the 'standard' Guard book while the Tempestus book had them set up only in squads for whatever reason(you'd think the Platoon would have been there instead).

So for them to both receive Orders and get their Regimental Trait, they have to be a 'pure' Tempestus Detachment. You cannot even take any Auxilia units for their Regimental Trait to function; meaning that the Tempestus Start Collecting is technically illegal.

Thirdly, as far as I'm aware you couldn't use Commanders to give tanks Orders anyway.

Right...but quite a few auras get granted to tanks. Since you lot looooooooove to equate auras to Orders, there's a big issue there.

Fourthly, we already know which units are underperforming and I'm sure we have good ideas to fix them. I made my proposal for Vets already, for example (though how to fine tune the Chimera will require arguing). However, that doesn't mean other things don't need to be brought down. Roboute going up in cost was absolutely necessary even though the rest of the codex sucks, right? You agreed Slamguinus needed to be hit, yes? Why is it all the sudden YOUR unit is to be exempt?

Because, again, the whole book needs to be redone and soup needs to be addressed before I think we'll really get a Guard book that people like Crimson aren't going to whine about.

And "finetuning the Chimera" to make it something interesting isn't really too hard.
-Mobile Command Center rule is readded.
-A rule granting an additional shot to the weapon(ala a Fireblade) of an infantry based unit is added to the Chimera. Points are adjusted accordingly.

Since only Regimental units can take advantage of Chimeras, it makes for an interesting way to open up some new options and makes even Veterans potentially feasible.

I've gone over my ideas for Infantry Squads quite frequently at this point. I've gone over my ideas for Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapon Squads, etc.

But it always comes down to this:
The other side keeps moving the damned goalposts. Anything I suggest that they think is going to make Guard better, they whine that it's a buff when the book needs to be nerfed. They refuse to understand that I'm not advocating for buffs with no shifts--I'm arguing for a whole fricking rework of the Guard as a faction. I think Skitarii need the same damn thing to happen to them as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's a 5+ save. I'd like to point out I've said they should go to a 6+ multiple times.

That cannot happen for WYSIWYG reasons, unless other non-scion guard infantry goes to 6+ too, they use same models.

Not true. Scions could take Orders from Regimental Officers in the previous book. There was nothing preventing a Regimental Officer from issuing an Order to Scion Squads, but the Tempestor Prime only was available in the Tempestus Platoons for the 'standard' Guard book while the Tempestus book had them set up only in squads for whatever reason(you'd think the Platoon would have been there instead).

Them not being able to be ordered by normal officers goes with usual (and good) 8E logic. In preivious editions most buffs could affect pretty much any unit, in 8E they're way more restricted. An Imperial Fist Captain's aura does not affect Ultramarines either. It's the same thing.

But it always comes down to this:
The other side keeps moving the damned goalposts. Anything I suggest that they think is going to make Guard better, they whine that it's a buff when the book needs to be nerfed. They refuse to understand that I'm not advocating for buffs with no shifts--I'm arguing for a whole fricking rework of the Guard as a faction. I think Skitarii need the same damn thing to happen to them as well.

No, you just refuse to accept any nerfs. It is one of the strongest factions in the game, nerfs are needed, but I have always consistently said that they should be accompanied by buffs to underperforming units. Your ideas for 'nerfs' are usually bad and do not address actual issues.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's a 5+ save. I'd like to point out I've said they should go to a 6+ multiple times.

That cannot happen for WYSIWYG reasons, unless other non-scion guard infantry goes to 6+ too, they use same models.

Not true. Scions could take Orders from Regimental Officers in the previous book. There was nothing preventing a Regimental Officer from issuing an Order to Scion Squads, but the Tempestor Prime only was available in the Tempestus Platoons for the 'standard' Guard book while the Tempestus book had them set up only in squads for whatever reason(you'd think the Platoon would have been there instead).

Them not being able to be ordered by normal officers goes with usual (and good) 8E logic. In preivious editions most buffs could affect pretty much any unit, in 8E they're way more restricted. An Imperial Fist Captain's aura does not affect Ultramarines either. It's the same thing.

But it always comes down to this:
The other side keeps moving the damned goalposts. Anything I suggest that they think is going to make Guard better, they whine that it's a buff when the book needs to be nerfed. They refuse to understand that I'm not advocating for buffs with no shifts--I'm arguing for a whole fricking rework of the Guard as a faction. I think Skitarii need the same damn thing to happen to them as well.

No, you just refuse to accept any nerfs. It is one of the strongest factions in the game, nerfs are needed, but I have always consistently said that they should be accompanied by buffs to underperforming units. Your ideas for 'nerfs' are usually bad and do not address actual issues.

Yes, how dare they recommend that Conscripts go to a 6+ save and Auxilia, meaning they're less durable, can never take orders, and don't even get regimental tactics! That's clearly just a ploy to make them OP!

I'm pretty sure the point is that regardless of whether or not it's a good idea from a gameplay perspective Conscripts are modeled with carapace armor so it's important that they have the same save as everything else modeled with carapace armor. Same reason GW wouldn't come out with a gun that looks exactly like a heavy bolter but is S8 AP-3 for some reason.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm pretty sure the point is that regardless of whether or not it's a good idea from a gameplay perspective Conscripts are modeled with carapace armor so it's important that they have the same save as everything else modeled with carapace armor. Same reason GW wouldn't come out with a gun that looks exactly like a heavy bolter but is S8 AP-3 for some reason.

Conscripts don't have a kit. They never have had a kit. It's literally just been "Use the standard Guard Infantry Squad, don't build a Sergeant, don't build a Vox-Caster, don't add a Flamer or Grenade Launcher but do paint the helmet with a white stripe".

They have, since their inception, been less than the standard Infantry Squad when it comes to BS. How are you lot not getting confused by that but you somehow think them having two different armor saves will be causing mass hysteria?

I should also add that I've advocated that the current Cadian kit needs to be refreshed and part of that could be with a way to visually distinguish the standard Infantry Squads and Veteran Squads from Conscripts. I've also argued specifically the point that you're using here but with the caveat of giving Conscripts Autoguns to make a "visually distinctive" unit...since nobody really takes Veteran Squads with Autoguns.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's a 5+ save. I'd like to point out I've said they should go to a 6+ multiple times.

That cannot happen for WYSIWYG reasons, unless other non-scion guard infantry goes to 6+ too, they use same models.

So Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and Heavy Weapon Squads should go to BS3+? I mean, they use the same basic look for all of those as Veterans do.

Not true. Scions could take Orders from Regimental Officers in the previous book. There was nothing preventing a Regimental Officer from issuing an Order to Scion Squads, but the Tempestor Prime only was available in the Tempestus Platoons for the 'standard' Guard book while the Tempestus book had them set up only in squads for whatever reason(you'd think the Platoon would have been there instead).

Them not being able to be ordered by normal officers goes with usual (and good) 8E logic. In preivious editions most buffs could affect pretty much any unit, in 8E they're way more restricted. An Imperial Fist Captain's aura does not affect Ultramarines either. It's the same thing.

No actually it isn't. There isn't really a "same thing" since Ultramarines are not specifically granted the ability to join an Imperial Fist Detachment and let the Imperial Fists retain their traits.

But it always comes down to this:
The other side keeps moving the damned goalposts. Anything I suggest that they think is going to make Guard better, they whine that it's a buff when the book needs to be nerfed. They refuse to understand that I'm not advocating for buffs with no shifts--I'm arguing for a whole fricking rework of the Guard as a faction. I think Skitarii need the same damn thing to happen to them as well.

No, you just refuse to accept any nerfs. It is one of the strongest factions in the game, nerfs are needed, but I have always consistently said that they should be accompanied by buffs to underperforming units. Your ideas for 'nerfs' are usually bad and do not address actual issues.

And you don't seem to understand that the "underperforming units" aren't going to magically be making things okay.

You lack a mechanical understanding of the army and your arguments are fallacious at best, propped up by a refusal to admit that the core issue is not the Guard Infantry Squad but rather the issue is soup.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and Heavy Weapon Squads should go to BS3+? I mean, they use the same basic look for all of those as Veterans do.

No, because unlike armour, ballistic skill is not a piece of equipment, and thus is not represented on the model.

No actually it isn't. There isn't really a "same thing" since Ultramarines are not specifically granted the ability to join an Imperial Fist Detachment and let the Imperial Fists retain their traits.

Right. But that is just one part of guard favouritism. If it worked like with other armies putting Scions in a detachment with other regiment would make both lose their traits.

And you don't seem to understand that the "underperforming units" aren't going to magically be making things okay.

Of course not. Considering that currently the situation for the guard is way above okay, to make it just okay will take some nerfs. But buffing underperforming units will improve the internal balance and thus make army construction more interesting.

You lack a mechanical understanding of the army and your arguments are fallacious at best, propped up by a refusal to admit that the core issue is not the Guard Infantry Squad but rather the issue is soup.

I really don't think accusing others of what you're doing is a good tactic. You're so insanely defensive and biased that you're completely unable to see the big picture.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and Heavy Weapon Squads should go to BS3+? I mean, they use the same basic look for all of those as Veterans do.

No, because unlike armour, ballistic skill is not a piece of equipment, and thus is not represented on the model.

And yet the introduction of Conscripts with Whiteshields specifically called out you painting the helmets white so that you could easily distinguish which units had what ballistic skill. Same thing goes for the helmets and the like on Marines.

No actually it isn't. There isn't really a "same thing" since Ultramarines are not specifically granted the ability to join an Imperial Fist Detachment and let the Imperial Fists retain their traits.

Right. But that is just one part of guard favouritism. If it worked like with other armies putting Scions in a detachment with other regiment would make both lose their traits.

So Kroot should make Tau lose their traits? Skitarii should make Cult lose their traits?

That's a hot take from you...

And you don't seem to understand that the "underperforming units" aren't going to magically be making things okay.

Of course not. Considering that currently the situation for the guard is way above okay, to make it just okay will take some nerfs. But buffing underperforming units will improve the internal balance and thus make army construction more interesting.

...and this is where we come to. You trying to justify your nonsense again with "army construction". You did it in the other thread with regards to the rambling about a Black Templars+Sisters "crusade" force and you've done it here with the AdMech+Iron Hands.

You lack a mechanical understanding of the army and your arguments are fallacious at best, propped up by a refusal to admit that the core issue is not the Guard Infantry Squad but rather the issue is soup.

I really don't think accusing others of what you're doing is a good tactic. You're so insanely defensive and biased that you're completely unable to see the big picture.

I understand how my army works. I've explained it to you and Slayer at this point. The fact that you seemingly cannot understand why your solution of "NERF THE INFANTRY SQUAD!" is so armybreakingly ridiculous without a full blown revamp of the Guard book justifies me putting you on ignore. Toodles!

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm pretty sure the point is that regardless of whether or not it's a good idea from a gameplay perspective Conscripts are modeled with carapace armor so it's important that they have the same save as everything else modeled with carapace armor. Same reason GW wouldn't come out with a gun that looks exactly like a heavy bolter but is S8 AP-3 for some reason.

Don't see why the model would matter much as just like IRL i can buy bulletproof vests that look identical but provide different levels of protection. One of my older vests actually had removable plates so you can adjust what type of round you are looking to stop. All they would need is something along the lines of

"while it might appear that conscripts have access to the same gear as a regular guardsman they are commonly handed out lighter weight riot vests and helmets. While this gear offers little protection on the battlefield the Imperium has noticed an increase in moral when soldiers have it. Keep in mind that this gear is usually identified by a stripe on the helmet. Make sure to separate the gear appropriately as you wouldn't want to waste actual war gear on a conscript"


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 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and Heavy Weapon Squads should go to BS3+? I mean, they use the same basic look for all of those as Veterans do.

No, because unlike armour, ballistic skill is not a piece of equipment, and thus is not represented on the model.

Id just like to point out that military gear often looks identical to civilian gear other than serial numbers and performs completely different. For instance on a gun you can have everything from different materials that make certain pieces all the way to different modes of fire/ being able to chamber different rounds all out of a platform that looks identical.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And yet the introduction of Conscripts with Whiteshields specifically called out you painting the helmets white so that you could easily distinguish which units had what ballistic skill. Same thing goes for the helmets and the like on Marines.

What is this I don't even... Unit marking have really nothing to do with this.

So Kroot should make Tau lose their traits? Skitarii should make Cult lose their traits?

No. Skitarii operates under Ad Mech command and Kroot operate under Tau command. Scions do not operate under Catachan command, they're a separate regiment with their own command structure just like the Tallarn or Mordians.

...and this is where we come to. You trying to justify your nonsense again with "army construction". You did it in the other thread with regards to the rambling about a Black Templars+Sisters "crusade" force and you've done it here with the AdMech+Iron Hands.

Because it is relevant. Do you understand that it is crap design that there are a bunch of units that are not worth using? You should be able to play an Imperial Guard army containing sentinels and veterans, you should be able to play Sister and Black Templar crusade. The key to all this is balance between units. It is not good for the game if some units are way better than others. Soup is not the problem, but soup accentuates the problem with badly balanced units, as you can draw undercosted units from many sources.

I understand how my army works. I've explained it to you and Slayer at this point. The fact that you seemingly cannot understand why your solution of "NERF THE INFANTRY SQUAD!" is so armybreakingly ridiculous without a full blown revamp of the Guard book justifies me putting you on ignore. Toodles!

You don't understand how the game works. The infantry squad is the best troop unit in the guard codex and the best troop unit in the Imperium faction. This is plain to see to everyone who is not completely wrapped in their own biased narrative. But indeed, please do put me on ignore, there indeed is not much point in continuing. I have not encountered such dogmatic refusal to understand and complete denial of facts since debating creationists.


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Asmodios wrote:

Don't see why the model would matter much as just like IRL i can buy bulletproof vests that look identical but provide different levels of protection. One of my older vests actually had removable plates so you can adjust what type of round you are looking to stop. All they would need is something along the lines of

"while it might appear that conscripts have access to the same gear as a regular guardsman they are commonly handed out lighter weight riot vests and helmets. While this gear offers little protection on the battlefield the Imperium has noticed an increase in moral when soldiers have it. Keep in mind that this gear is usually identified by a stripe on the helmet. Make sure to separate the gear appropriately as you wouldn't want to waste actual war gear on a conscript"

It's just not how GW operates, it is not a realistic suggestion if there is no separate conscript kit.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And yet the introduction of Conscripts with Whiteshields specifically called out you painting the helmets white so that you could easily distinguish which units had what ballistic skill. Same thing goes for the helmets and the like on Marines.

What is this I don't even... Unit marking have really nothing to do with this.

So Kroot should make Tau lose their traits? Skitarii should make Cult lose their traits?

No. Skitarii operates under Ad Mech command and Kroot operate under Tau command. Scions do not operate under Catachan command, they're a separate regiment with their own command structure just like the Tallarn or Mordians.

...and this is where we come to. You trying to justify your nonsense again with "army construction". You did it in the other thread with regards to the rambling about a Black Templars+Sisters "crusade" force and you've done it here with the AdMech+Iron Hands.

Because it is relevant. Do you understand that it is crap design that there are a bunch of units that are not worth using? You should be able to play an Imperial Guard army containing sentinels and veterans, you should be able to play Sister and Black Templar crusade. The key to all this is balance between units. It is not good for the game if some units are way better than others. Soup is not the problem, but soup accentuates the problem with badly balanced units, as you can draw undercosted units from many sources.

I understand how my army works. I've explained it to you and Slayer at this point. The fact that you seemingly cannot understand why your solution of "NERF THE INFANTRY SQUAD!" is so armybreakingly ridiculous without a full blown revamp of the Guard book justifies me putting you on ignore. Toodles!

You don't understand how the game works. The infantry squad is the best troop unit in the guard codex and the best troop unit in the Imperium faction. This is plain to see to everyone who is not completely wrapped in their own biased narrative. But indeed, please do put me on ignore, there indeed is not much point in continuing. I have not encountered such dogmatic refusal to understand and complete denial of facts since debating creationists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

Don't see why the model would matter much as just like IRL i can buy bulletproof vests that look identical but provide different levels of protection. One of my older vests actually had removable plates so you can adjust what type of round you are looking to stop. All they would need is something along the lines of

"while it might appear that conscripts have access to the same gear as a regular guardsman they are commonly handed out lighter weight riot vests and helmets. While this gear offers little protection on the battlefield the Imperium has noticed an increase in moral when soldiers have it. Keep in mind that this gear is usually identified by a stripe on the helmet. Make sure to separate the gear appropriately as you wouldn't want to waste actual war gear on a conscript"

It's just not how GW operates, it is not a realistic suggestion if there is no separate conscript kit.

Don't see why not. Just like different chapters/regiments/septs get different range on their guns despite the model being identical. I mean we have chapters of space marines that fundamentally change all types of stats based on armor color but we can't change an armor save with a stripe on a helmet?

Asmodios wrote:

Don't see why not. Just like different chapters/regiments/septs get different range on their guns despite the model being identical. I mean we have chapters of space marines that fundamentally change all types of stats based on armor color but we can't change an armor save with a stripe on a helmet?

I just don't think GW approaches these things that way. They think models first. Vostroyans specifically have longer ranged lasguns because their models actually have different looking, longer lasguns.

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Don't see why not. Just like different chapters/regiments/septs get different range on their guns despite the model being identical. I mean we have chapters of space marines that fundamentally change all types of stats based on armor color but we can't change an armor save with a stripe on a helmet?

I just don't think GW approaches these things that way. They think models first. Vostroyans specifically have longer ranged lasguns because their models actually have different looking, longer lasguns.

What models? There's no official Vostroyan model.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Don't see why not. Just like different chapters/regiments/septs get different range on their guns despite the model being identical. I mean we have chapters of space marines that fundamentally change all types of stats based on armor color but we can't change an armor save with a stripe on a helmet?

I just don't think GW approaches these things that way. They think models first. Vostroyans specifically have longer ranged lasguns because their models actually have different looking, longer lasguns.

What models? There's no official Vostroyan model.

Erm...

Converted. Awesome conversions, but not a model GW sells.

Go on, check the site for Vostroyan Firstborn. You won't find them.

Edit: Not to mention, are there Bork'An Sept models? They also get a range boost.

I assume you're joking. But that they're out of production doesn't make them not official.

 Crimson wrote:
I assume you're joking. But that they're out of production doesn't make them not official.

I was not aware they were ever sold. I thought they were all conversions. Okay, that's me being wrong.

What about Bork'An Tau? Are there some Brok'An models with extra long Pulse Rifles I don't know about?

I'm not that familiar with the Tau. I don't recall such models.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm not that familiar with the Tau. I don't recall such models.

There you go. 6" of range on their guns extra, and no different models.

I really wish people would stop comparing IG to marines and trying to use that as proof that IG is overpowered. Marines are hot garbage and need buffs across the board... IG don't need to be nerfed down to marine levels.

We should really be comparing IG to other upper tier codices like DE/Eldar/Tau/Tyranids.

IG do need nerfs in a few areas (such as infantry squads going to 5 points) but they also need buffs to certain units (chimeras, LR:vanquishers, sentinels), but EVERY codex needs nerfs and buffs to certain units.

If you compare IG to SM or GK, yea IG is going to gak all over them, but it's because SM and GK are BAD, not because IG is too good. If you compare IG to the other upper tier codices the power gap is much more narrow and arguable.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm not that familiar with the Tau. I don't recall such models.

There you go. 6" of range on their guns extra, and no different models.

It seems reaching to use a Sub-Faction rule here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:
I really wish people would stop comparing IG to marines and trying to use that as proof that IG is overpowered. Marines are hot garbage and need buffs across the board... IG don't need to be nerfed down to marine levels.

We should really be comparing IG to other upper tier codices like DE/Eldar/Tau/Tyranids.

IG do need nerfs in a few areas (such as infantry squads going to 5 points) but they also need buffs to certain units (chimeras, LR:vanquishers, sentinels), but EVERY codex needs nerfs and buffs to certain units.

If you compare IG to SM or GK, yea IG is going to gak all over them, but it's because SM and GK are BAD, not because IG is too good. If you compare IG to the other upper tier codices the power gap is much more narrow and arguable.

Which is why I'm not for totally killing off Infantry and even suggested a modest .5 point increase. However, people keep blaming the Allies boogeyman and they really shouldn't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm not that familiar with the Tau. I don't recall such models.

There you go. 6" of range on their guns extra, and no different models.

It seems reaching to use a Sub-Faction rule here.

I wasn't the one who brought them up.