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 vipoid wrote:

I don't even know what you people want anymore.

"This is terrible - IG are acting as CP batteries for every Imperium faction!"

'Okay, here are some ways to stop that...'

"This is terrible, IG won't be able to be CP batteries for every Imperium faction!!!"




I give up.

I think a lot of people would like to see the crazy discrepancies in different armies ability to generate CP to be addressed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah Renegade HWTs with Mortars are more efficient 1 on 1 compared to the Guard version.
But unlike Guard, the rest of the Renegade units are pretty bad, which is why you don't see them.
That and FW has discontinued most of their range (seriously, the only renegade units FW still sells are the vehicles/artillery they shared with Guard/Admech).

How many points are they? I doubt they really are, especially once you include the Regiment traits into the matter (though that's not a top many of them).

24 points for a squad of 3, and the squad can be increased to 6 teams strong.

I don't know what people mean by viable.

Obviously a Castellan which can be 3++ and reroll all 1s for 3 turns is better than one which can do it for one turn. It isn't however immediately obvious that its awful without these abilities. If we go "a Castellan is always going to have an IG brigade to feed it CP" then it should probably be 750~ points. at the same time however this is going to make it even worse in a mono knight build.

Right now its hard to talk about mono armies because the meta is dominated by soup. If they would eliminate soup from space (i.e. rules such that make it obviously sub-optimal in competitive play) then we could look at the meta then. We could then have a serious discussion about what is viable and what is not.

It might still be "mono space marines (any flavour) are still not great" - but they would be bumped up, because the gap between them and the top wouldn't be so extreme.

Tyel wrote:
I don't know what people mean by viable.

Obviously a Castellan which can be 3++ and reroll all 1s for 3 turns is better than one which can do it for one turn. It isn't however immediately obvious that its awful without these abilities. If we go "a Castellan is always going to have an IG brigade to feed it CP" then it should probably be 750~ points. at the same time however this is going to make it even worse in a mono knight build.

Right now its hard to talk about mono armies because the meta is dominated by soup. If they would eliminate soup from space (i.e. rules such that make it obviously sub-optimal in competitive play) then we could look at the meta then. We could then have a serious discussion about what is viable and what is not.

It might still be "mono space marines (any flavour) are still not great" - but they would be bumped up, because the gap between them and the top wouldn't be so extreme.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Mono Knights players can go pound sand, nobody likes playing against that gak and I struggle to believe anyone enjoys actually playing it outside of the satisfaction they get from curb stomping any list that isn't tailor made to kill Knights and only Knights.

RogueApiary wrote:

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Mono Knights players can go pound sand, nobody likes playing against that gak and I struggle to believe anyone enjoys actually playing it outside of the satisfaction they get from curb stomping any list that isn't tailor made to kill Knights and only Knights.

Whilst I wouldn't put it that bluntly, yes, it is not necessary that the optimal way to run the knights is mono. They're an army that make perfect sense with allies, and frankly running them that way makes it a more pleasant gaming experience to everyone involved.

At least armigers are okay targets for S4.

People that still complains about playing agaisnt mono-Imperial Knight armies should receive notice that we are in 8th, not in 7th anymore.

Horde-skewed lists are much worse as a gameplay experience. I can use Assault Cannons and Huracan Bolters vs Imperial Knights. My infantry can cap objetives without a problem vs a full Knight list with 5-7 models. Imperial Knights degrade when they take wounds.

My plasma cannons, Autocannons and Lasscannons do gak agaisnt a Ork or Imperial Guard horde-army. A TAC list that isn't Grey Knights (And maybe Orks) has 0 problems vs a mono-Imperial Knight army.

I thought Knights were a mistake when they were first introduced and I still hold to that.
Even if they are 'ok' or 'balance' or whatever, they are extremely stiffling to the meta.
If you can't kill a knight in 1 turn you don't need to show up looking to perform well in a competitive tournament.
Which is also why so many Imperium armies are throwing in a Castellan now. Because they need it to be able to combat the inevitable Knights they run into.
And yes that is because its to point efficient when shooting at big stuff.

Between running a Castellan and the practically mandatory guard battalion you've spend half your points before you even start putting together the actual army you wanted to run in the first place.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah Renegade HWTs with Mortars are more efficient 1 on 1 compared to the Guard version.
But unlike Guard, the rest of the Renegade units are pretty bad, which is why you don't see them.
That and FW has discontinued most of their range (seriously, the only renegade units FW still sells are the vehicles/artillery they shared with Guard/Admech).

How many points are they? I doubt they really are, especially once you include the Regiment traits into the matter (though that's not a top many of them).

24 points for a squad of 3, and the squad can be increased to 6 teams strong.

So it's an extra 9 points for the extra BS and Regiments and access to Orders. I'd say the Guard edges out, but the ability to get 6 in a squad is pretty nice.

RogueApiary wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I don't know what people mean by viable.

Obviously a Castellan which can be 3++ and reroll all 1s for 3 turns is better than one which can do it for one turn. It isn't however immediately obvious that its awful without these abilities. If we go "a Castellan is always going to have an IG brigade to feed it CP" then it should probably be 750~ points. at the same time however this is going to make it even worse in a mono knight build.

Right now its hard to talk about mono armies because the meta is dominated by soup. If they would eliminate soup from space (i.e. rules such that make it obviously sub-optimal in competitive play) then we could look at the meta then. We could then have a serious discussion about what is viable and what is not.

It might still be "mono space marines (any flavour) are still not great" - but they would be bumped up, because the gap between them and the top wouldn't be so extreme.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Mono Knights players can go pound sand, nobody likes playing against that gak and I struggle to believe anyone enjoys actually playing it outside of the satisfaction they get from curb stomping any list that isn't tailor made to kill Knights and only Knights.

I bet those Gundam weebs that are loyal to the Imperium like the idea of a mono-knight list.

 Galas wrote:


Horde-skewed lists are much worse as a gameplay experience. I can use Assault Cannons and Huracan Bolters vs Imperial Knights.

My plasma cannons, Autocannons and Lasscannons do gak agaisnt a Ork or Imperial Guard horde-army.

Against an archetypal T8 24W 3+ sv Knight, an assault cannon with 6 shots and BS3+ is going to average 0.66 wounds against a Knight. 12 shot Hurricane Bolters in double-tap range with BS3+ will average 0.44 wounds.

Now, without getting into Armigers or Castellans, assuming say, 5 Knights in a 2k list, that's 120 wounds.


Now, lets look at those other weapons against Guardsmen. A Plasma Cannon with BS3+ is going to average 1.11 wounds, an Autocannon will average 0.93, and a Lascannon will average 0.55

Now, most Guard armies are going to have a broadly similar number of wounds depending on makeup (you can expect most Guard armies to field 100-170 wounds depending on makeup), and will be vulnerable to losses from Morale as well in many instances. The Plasma Cannon and Autocannon are both dramatically more effective against the Guardsmen than the Assault Cannon or ideally positioned Hurricane bolters will be against the Knights, while the Lascannon right between the AssCan & Hurricane.

Seems like there's a disconnect in your argument here. It also ignores the fact that most Guard armies are also fielding tanks where those Lascannons and Plasma Cannons can be put to good use.

Notice he didn't say a typical army, he said a horde skew list.

You can field around 400 bodies, easy, in a skew list, if you have the models.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notice he didn't say a typical army, he said a horde skew list.

You can field around 400 bodies, easy, in a skew list, if you have the models.

Big guns shooting at hordes kill models, not enough but you see your guns do their thing.
Small guns shooting at Knights do (next to) nothing.
Even if the proportional effect is equal or in favor of the Horde human psychology and perception makes the 2nd scenario feel worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah Renegade HWTs with Mortars are more efficient 1 on 1 compared to the Guard version.
But unlike Guard, the rest of the Renegade units are pretty bad, which is why you don't see them.
That and FW has discontinued most of their range (seriously, the only renegade units FW still sells are the vehicles/artillery they shared with Guard/Admech).

How many points are they? I doubt they really are, especially once you include the Regiment traits into the matter (though that's not a top many of them).

24 points for a squad of 3, and the squad can be increased to 6 teams strong.

So it's an extra 9 points for the extra BS and Regiments and access to Orders. I'd say the Guard edges out, but the ability to get 6 in a squad is pretty nice.

Yeah with proper support pts vs pts, Guard HWT definitely are better. I only consider the Renegade version more efficient because you can take double the amount of them under the Rule of 3.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notice he didn't say a typical army, he said a horde skew list.

You can field around 400 bodies, easy, in a skew list, if you have the models.

We're not really seeing armies like that though. Even the hordiest Guard or Ork lists will generally run under 200 models, and those already have major trouble fitting in deployment zones and generally aren't winning tournaments. To fit 400 bodies in an IG list, at bare minimum, you'd need to be playing a game larger than 2K (because even the cheapest HQ choices are 7.5x what a 4pt Guardsmen runs).

w1zard wrote:
For the last time... VANILLA MARINES ARE GARBAGE IN 8TH EDITION AND NEED AN ENTIRELY REWRITTEN CODEX TO BE VIABLE OUTSIDE OF GIMMICKY BUILDS FOCUSED AROUND SPECIAL CHARACTERS, STOP USING THEM AS A MEASURING STICK FOR BALANCE.

We can only hope that this is the last time....

Outside of a specific Gulliman spam build (and even then, it's no where nearly as devastating as it was a year ago), marines in no way compete in top tier - people really need to understand that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Horde-skewed lists are much worse as a gameplay experience. I can use Assault Cannons and Huracan Bolters vs Imperial Knights.

My plasma cannons, Autocannons and Lasscannons do gak agaisnt a Ork or Imperial Guard horde-army.

Against an archetypal T8 24W 3+ sv Knight, an assault cannon with 6 shots and BS3+ is going to average 0.66 wounds against a Knight. 12 shot Hurricane Bolters in double-tap range with BS3+ will average 0.44 wounds.

Now, without getting into Armigers or Castellans, assuming say, 5 Knights in a 2k list, that's 120 wounds.


Now, lets look at those other weapons against Guardsmen. A Plasma Cannon with BS3+ is going to average 1.11 wounds, an Autocannon will average 0.93, and a Lascannon will average 0.55

Now, most Guard armies are going to have a broadly similar number of wounds depending on makeup (you can expect most Guard armies to field 100-170 wounds depending on makeup), and will be vulnerable to losses from Morale as well in many instances. The Plasma Cannon and Autocannon are both dramatically more effective against the Guardsmen than the Assault Cannon or ideally positioned Hurricane bolters will be against the Knights, while the Lascannon right between the AssCan & Hurricane.

Seems like there's a disconnect in your argument here. It also ignores the fact that most Guard armies are also fielding tanks where those Lascannons and Plasma Cannons can be put to good use.

Eh... and how expensive are those wounds? 1.1 wounds of guardsmen is 4.4 points. 0.66 wounds of a castellan is aprox 15 points. Also, droping one castellan from 3+ to 4+ is much bigger than killing 10 guardsmen, for example. And if you factor rerolls to wound and to hit, the numbers skyrocketd in favour of using anti-infantry or medium guns vs Imperial Knights, because no matter how much you invest, a 25 poin lasscannon will only max kill 1 guardsmen for 4 points.
. And yeah, a guardsmen list with 120-170 wounds, if hes using infantry and a couple of vehicles/elite models, is not a horde-skewed list. Have you faced 90 Plaguebearers+80-120 cultists protecting 3 Death Guard guys with the flamethrowers and Daemon Princes? THATS a Horde list. And is obnoxious to play. 0 vehicles for your antitank, you can only shoot at Plaguebearers or Cultists. They literally fill out the board with bodies. Literally. Theres no room for manouvering.
Do those lists appear on ITC? No they dont. Do they appear on ETC and Full Hammer? Oh yeah, I can assure you they do. Are they invincible? No. But they need very specific builds to be able to face them. A TAC lists can't. But I can win with a TAC lists vs Mono Imperial Knights no problem. At least if the TAC lists comes from a good faction.
But I can understand that you have read "Horde-skewed list", mentioning both Imperial Guard and Orks, as another post complaining about imperial guard. I wasn't.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notice he didn't say a typical army, he said a horde skew list.

You can field around 400 bodies, easy, in a skew list, if you have the models.

We're not really seeing armies like that though. Even the hordiest Guard or Ork lists will generally run under 200 models, and those already have major trouble fitting in deployment zones and generally aren't winning tournaments. To fit 400 bodies in an IG list, at bare minimum, you'd need to be playing a game larger than 2K (because even the cheapest HQ choices are 7.5x what a 4pt Guardsmen runs).

depends, my ork list for 1750 I run 2x battalion

battalion 1 - warboss, wierdboy 5x 30 boys (with nob and pk) = 152 models
battalion 2 - weirdboyy x2 , 30 boyz x2 (plus nob and pk) plus 3 10 man gretchin models. = 92 models

244 models at 1750 and it s apretty typical ork list righ tnow, will see how that changes with the codex though

 Crimson wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Mono Knights players can go pound sand, nobody likes playing against that gak and I struggle to believe anyone enjoys actually playing it outside of the satisfaction they get from curb stomping any list that isn't tailor made to kill Knights and only Knights.

Whilst I wouldn't put it that bluntly, yes, it is not necessary that the optimal way to run the knights is mono. They're an army that make perfect sense with allies, and frankly running them that way makes it a more pleasant gaming experience to everyone involved.

I donno, I've played against mono-knights a time or two and it's more fun than playing against mono-guard or mono-Death Guard.

 Galas wrote:

My plasma cannons, Autocannons and Lasscannons do gak agaisnt a Ork or Imperial Guard horde-army. A TAC list that isn't Grey Knights (And maybe Orks) has 0 problems vs a mono-Imperial Knight army.

Plasma Cannons do the same vs. Guard as a Heavy Bolter. Better if they're in cover. They cost more but they obviously threaten vehicles and elites way better. A good gun.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

My plasma cannons, Autocannons and Lasscannons do gak agaisnt a Ork or Imperial Guard horde-army. A TAC list that isn't Grey Knights (And maybe Orks) has 0 problems vs a mono-Imperial Knight army.

Plasma Cannons do the same vs. Guard as a Heavy Bolter. Better if they're in cover. They cost more but they obviously threaten vehicles and elites way better. A good gun.

As a Dark Angel player I really like my plasma cannons, and vs most lists they are very good. But doing "the same" isn't really the "same" when they are more expensive

I really feared mono-knights would be a meta defining monster. I'd argue they were in 7th - representing yet another chasm between the good armies and everyone else.
In 8th though I have not found them especially scary - and almost every list I can think of seems better with a guard battalion in it. In fact the more you cut back the more you end up concluding that less is more.

Would be interesting to see how say 5 Gallants would do charging face first into Imperial Soup with a 230~ point guard battalion camping at the back. Then again I can see it not working out well at all - especially if you didn't get the first turn.

 Galas wrote:
Horde-skewed lists are much worse as a gameplay experience.

See, I'd actually much prefer to play against a Horde-skewed list than a full Knight list.

I don't know whether my army would necessarily perform better against a horde army, but i think it would be a hell of a lot more fun.

I might lose in the end, but at lest against a horde army I can get the gratification of seeing a ton of enemy models removed from the table. I personally find that far more enjoyable than eventually killing what might as well be an armed brick.

However, I'm also aware that I'm rather weird, so I might well be in the minority here.

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

My plasma cannons, Autocannons and Lasscannons do gak agaisnt a Ork or Imperial Guard horde-army. A TAC list that isn't Grey Knights (And maybe Orks) has 0 problems vs a mono-Imperial Knight army.

Plasma Cannons do the same vs. Guard as a Heavy Bolter. Better if they're in cover. They cost more but they obviously threaten vehicles and elites way better. A good gun.

As a Dark Angel player I really like my plasma cannons, and vs most lists they are very good. But doing "the same" isn't really the "same" when they are more expensive

So few platforms have the option to get Plasma Cannons that taking a Heavy Bolter instead is generally a waste of the opportunity to take something better than a Heavy Bolter, if you get my meaning. The choice is exceedingly platform-dependent. Like if we're talking costs, Storm Bolters are better than Heavy Bolters against GEQ.

Of course if you're just specifically building against hordes that's a different matter. It's just the real challenge tends to lie in building an army that can handle hordes AND lists that skew in the opposite direction, obviously.

Hey, here's another 'fluke' for all you marine players. Nick Nanavati took 4th at BFS using UM (a whopping 3 assassin's allied in so I know you haters will complain it's not 'pure' enough). But please, keep saying blaming all your woes on the big guard bogeyman rather than looking inward for the source of your failures.

Edit: BFS results site didn't have all three detachments listed and it turns out he did bring Gman. Ovrrall point stands, Marines have competitive legs, even if Gman is a bit of a crutch.

RogueApiary wrote:
Hey, here's another 'fluke' for all you marine players. Nick Nanavati took 4th at BFS using UM WITHOUT Guilliman (a whopping 3 assassin's allied in so I know you haters will complain it's not 'pure' enough). But please, keep saying blaming all your woes on the big guard bogeyman rather than looking inward for the source of your failures.

Are you sure it was without Guilliman? He made a blog post about this list prior to the event and it was like this:

Ultrmarine Battalion
Librarian- force sword 98
Telion 75
5 Scouts- snipers 75
5 Scouts- snipers 75
5 Scouts 55
Primaris Ancient 69
5 Vets- 5 storm bolters, 4 storm shields, 1 chain sword 110
5 Vets- 4 storm bolters, 4 storm shields, 1 chain sword, 1 bolter 108
3 Scout Bikes- Storm Bolter on serg 77
3 Scout Bikes- Storm Bolter on serg 77
3 Scout Bikes- Storm Bolter on serg 77
5 Devestaters- 2 heavy bolters, 1 missile, cherub 115

Assassin Vanguard
Cullexus 85
Cullexus 85
Cullexus 85

Supreme Command
Gulliman 400
Captain- Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield (UM) 129
Primaris Rune Priest- runic sword 103
Dark Angel Primaris Libby- Force Sword 101

Obviously he could have changed the list. Assuming this is the list he ended up taking what's interesting to me is how many psykers he has - three Librarians from three different disciplines. It's almost like a Chaos list.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Hey, here's another 'fluke' for all you marine players. Nick Nanavati took 4th at BFS using UM WITHOUT Guilliman (a whopping 3 assassin's allied in so I know you haters will complain it's not 'pure' enough). But please, keep saying blaming all your woes on the big guard bogeyman rather than looking inward for the source of your failures.

Are you sure it was without Guilliman? He made a blog post about this list prior to the event and it was like this:

Ultrmarine Battalion
Librarian- force sword 98
Telion 75
5 Scouts- snipers 75
5 Scouts- snipers 75
5 Scouts 55
Primaris Ancient 69
5 Vets- 5 storm bolters, 4 storm shields, 1 chain sword 110
5 Vets- 4 storm bolters, 4 storm shields, 1 chain sword, 1 bolter 108
3 Scout Bikes- Storm Bolter on serg 77
3 Scout Bikes- Storm Bolter on serg 77
3 Scout Bikes- Storm Bolter on serg 77
5 Devestaters- 2 heavy bolters, 1 missile, cherub 115

Assassin Vanguard
Cullexus 85
Cullexus 85
Cullexus 85

Supreme Command
Gulliman 400
Captain- Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield (UM) 129
Primaris Rune Priest- runic sword 103
Dark Angel Primaris Libby- Force Sword 101

Obviously he could have changed the list. Assuming this is the list he ended up taking what's interesting to me is how many psykers he has - three Librarians from three different disciplines. It's almost like a Chaos list.

Looks like you're right. The BFS site must have cut the last detachment but since the first two detachments are identical he has to be there. Bummer. Still a competitive marine list making it into top 4 at a major.

I honestly can't see it doing well. It ain't going to get first turn and you can easily take out a lot in that list.

Also no clue how it kills even a single Knight.

RogueApiary wrote:


Looks like you're right. The BFS site must have cut the last detachment but since the first two detachments are identical he has to be there. Bummer. Still a competitive marine soup list making it into top 4 at a major.

Fixed that for you.