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Karol wrote:
Plus people bought models and do not want to see them nerfed. Because that is what GW does, either their fix is not really a fix and the unit or faction still does great and keeps getting used, or they kill a combo or faction. No one wants to spend 100-200$ only to have it changed in to a paper weight a few months later.

Guard players don't want this either you know. Guard took a LOT of well deserved nerfs early this edition... More seems like overkill, at least until the CP issue is fixed and the meta settles again.

Karol wrote:

They are just realists. the chance of GW fixing they own faction to have good CP generation is much smaller, then GW keeping IG out performing other factions.
Plus people bought models and do not want to see them nerfed. Because that is what GW does, either their fix is not really a fix and the unit or faction still does great and keeps getting used, or they kill a combo or faction. No one wants to spend 100-200$ only to have it changed in to a paper weight a few months later.

And yet your "realist" opinion turns my $500+ army into paperweights while the people buying Guard for "good CP generation" still get their money's worth.

Infantry Squads turning into poor units still generates CPs.

Nah the better answer is that Guard should just be appropriately costed. 6ppm Guardsmen 5ppm Conscripts. Then no one cares if they use Guard as a battery for CP as they're balanced with the rest of the troops out there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Karol wrote:

They are just realists. the chance of GW fixing they own faction to have good CP generation is much smaller, then GW keeping IG out performing other factions.
Plus people bought models and do not want to see them nerfed. Because that is what GW does, either their fix is not really a fix and the unit or faction still does great and keeps getting used, or they kill a combo or faction. No one wants to spend 100-200$ only to have it changed in to a paper weight a few months later.

And yet your "realist" opinion turns my $500+ army into paperweights while the people buying Guard for "good CP generation" still get their money's worth.

Infantry Squads turning into poor units still generates CPs.

^
This.

 Marmatag wrote:
Nah the better answer is that Guard should just be appropriately costed. 6ppm Guardsmen 5ppm Conscripts. Then no one cares if they use Guard as a battery for CP as they're balanced with the rest of the troops out there.

Mhm a guardsmen at the same price of a kabalite?
Even though it is worse in all things profile and weapon wise?
I mean with that logic we should price primaris marines at custodes base level aswell.....

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Nah the better answer is that Guard should just be appropriately costed. 6ppm Guardsmen 5ppm Conscripts. Then no one cares if they use Guard as a battery for CP as they're balanced with the rest of the troops out there.

Mhm a guardsmen at the same price of a kabalite?
Even though it is worse in all things profile and weapon wise?
I mean with that logic we should price primaris marines at custodes base level aswell.....

Kabalites don't get orders, or the same level of synergy. And you know it. Guardsmen would still be immensely popular at 6ppm.

 Marmatag wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Nah the better answer is that Guard should just be appropriately costed. 6ppm Guardsmen 5ppm Conscripts. Then no one cares if they use Guard as a battery for CP as they're balanced with the rest of the troops out there.

Mhm a guardsmen at the same price of a kabalite?
Even though it is worse in all things profile and weapon wise?
I mean with that logic we should price primaris marines at custodes base level aswell.....

Kabalites don't get orders, or the same level of synergy. And you know it. Guardsmen would still be immensely popular at 6ppm.

Orders are not free. You need officers and they are restricted by ammount, range and regiment.
Secondly: pain rule.
Thirdly: ynnari soup shenanigans ergo more synergy.

 Marmatag wrote:
Nah the better answer is that Guard should just be appropriately costed. 6ppm Guardsmen 5ppm Conscripts. Then no one cares if they use Guard as a battery for CP as they're balanced with the rest of the troops out there.

If by "balanced with the rest of the troops out there" you mean:
Less BS(Kabalites and Guardians are 3+) and/or Less Sv(Skitarii and Fire Warriors are 4+ saves, Skitarii are BS3+ as well).

I love that you seem to think you have some deep insight...when really you're just slinging crap at the wall and hoping nobody calls you out on it.

Guardsmen don't get orders either, Officers do, with conditions on how and where they can be used.

Guardsmen also dont get Power From Pain.

6ppm is a pipe dream.

Orders are free, because you have to bring HQs in your army.

Power from pain really only matters for the 6+ FNP on Kabalites since they're not in melee.

Ynnari shenanigans are wasted on Kabalites.

Lastly, Guardsmen also serve to protect some of the strongest shooting stuff in the game. This isn't an apples to apples comparison. In the context of Guard & Imperium, Guardsmen are 6ppm models.

 Marmatag wrote:
Orders are free, because you have to bring HQs in your army.

Power from pain really only matters for the 6+ FNP on Kabalites since they're not in melee.

Ynnari shenanigans are wasted on Kabalites.

Lastly, Guardsmen also serve to protect some of the strongest shooting stuff in the game. This isn't an apples to apples comparison.

So you think IG does pay nothing for hq? Or elites?
You can replace the same about any top list atm btw.
Nerfing guard however will not accomplish anything anyways so long soup goes unpunished and gw feels the need for knights beeing broken via cp and allready Borderline op without cp. 6 ppm would just mean admech with -1 to hit trait would now be used instead.
See you solved nothing, except If you wanted to make IG mono unplayable.
Well done.

 Marmatag wrote:
Orders are free, because you have to bring HQs in your army.

Not all HQ's have Infantry Orders, you have to purchase specific Order issuing HQ officers that have squat all other use on the table.

Power from pain really only matters for the 6+ FNP on Kabalites since they're not in melee.

And often there arent enough officers or orders nearby for Guardsmen to benefit from Orders. They're not an "always on" thing.

Lastly, Guardsmen also serve to protect some of the strongest shooting stuff in the game. This isn't an apples to apples comparison.

This has been true in literally every edition, its the hallmark of the army...

And DE/Aeldari have their own fantastic units Kabalites can support...

in the context of Guard & Imperium, Guardsmen are 6ppm models.

You're the only person Ive ever seen assert this, and even if guardsmen get a bump, it will almost certainly never be to 6ppm.

 Marmatag wrote:

Lastly, Guardsmen also serve to protect some of the strongest shooting stuff in the game. This isn't an apples to apples comparison. In the context of Guard & Imperium, Guardsmen are 6ppm models.

A: They definitely aren't worth 6.

B: Shoot past the screens, or dedicate the effort to killing the screen if you need to. Guardsmen aren't magical LOS Barriers or anything.

People are bringing DE into their Ynnari soup, that's true, but it's not with Kabalites. Successful lists are actually using Prophets of Flesh with Wracks. Some lists bring 1 unit of Kabalites just for access to Vect. They don't see the play that guardsmen do for very good reason. Kabalites are solid troops. They're costed fairly. Guardsmen are stellar troops, and costed unfairly. It isn't an apples to apples comparison no matter how hard you try.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not all HQ's have Infantry Orders, you have to purchase specific Order issuing HQ officers that have squat all other use on the table.

Those 30 point Company Commanders really add up huh?

I can certainly see guardsmen as 6 ppm. Especially using marine pricing theory, which is clearly based off having a perma-BobbyG aura.

Six points is obviously too much, five is fine. Conscripts 4, normal guardsmen 5, veterans 6. Makes perfect sense. Company commanders need a small point bump too, maybe five point more or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I can certainly see guardsmen as 6 ppm. Especially using marine pricing theory, which is clearly based off having a perma-BobbyG aura.

I mean sure, fair point. But marines need point drop, 5ppm guardsmen are OK when compared to most other troops.

Tyel wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not all HQ's have Infantry Orders, you have to purchase specific Order issuing HQ officers that have squat all other use on the table.

Those 30 point Company Commanders really add up huh?

What else are you supposed to use for issuing Orders, Commissars? Primaris Psykers? Tank Commanders?
What else is the Company Commander supposed to do, sit back and snipe with a *checks notes*...boltgun?

People love to trot this line out about the Company Commanders being 30 points. It's a T3 model with a 5+ save and a 5+ invulnerable save...with no real access to any other items. I can't turn him into a buffbot in the same vein as a Tau Commander rocking a Drone Controller with a bunch of Markerlight Drones. I can't turn him into a deep striking menace.

I pay those 30 points, he's literally just there to shout at people.

Catachan with a Powerfist is actually a decent melee threat. Not great-but not bad.

Other than that, not much.

This all depends on how much you are going to charge for possible synergies. I can easily see a guardsmen with access to FRFSF as a justification to cost the same as a kabalite. Doubling rate of fire with 100% reliability is fething nuts. Esp as IG buff models are so much cheaper than Drukhari buff models.

I think auras and orders were mistakes in 8th ed. I'd take them out and see what points look like then as a starting point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

What else are you supposed to use for issuing Orders, Commissars? Primaris Psykers? Tank Commanders?

Platoon Commanders (which should be a HQ choice.) If the rules are built so that they encourage you to bring multiple Company Commanders over Platoon Commanders, then the rules are fethed up. It's like when people always brought Chapter Masters in previous editions because they were just flat out better than Captains at a negligible cost.

"I pay those 30 points, he's literally just there to shout at people."

And hold objectives protected by the magical character force field. No character should only cost 30 pts with that rule in effect.

Martel732 wrote:
"I pay those 30 points, he's literally just there to shout at people."

And hold objectives protected by the magical character force field. No character should only cost 30 pts with that rule in effect.

What should he cost? A Neurothrope is a Synapse HQ, Psyker, has Fly, comes with a 3+ invuln and is 70 points.

For what the commander actually does, which is just "shout at people", 30 points doesn't seem far off. An SM Lieutennant costs 60, better stats, better buff, better gear options etc.

Stats that usually don't matter in practice.

Ive played with commanders a lot now. You'd have to get them up to primaris psyker levels before I'd stop using them. They're still a bargain at that price compared to crappy ass marine characters. I'm playing with both now, so I'm in a good position to comapre them. Marine characters, across the board, are a joke compared to IG characters. Bobby G is an exception. But there's no way I can ever leverage a single librarian to match two primaris psykers.

If I had more time to paint, I'd replace all marines with IG equivalents. They're better across board.

 Insectum7 wrote:


For what the commander actually does, which is just "shout at people", 30 points doesn't seem far off. An SM Lieutennant costs 60, better stats, better buff, better gear options etc.

Lieutenant definitely doesn't have better buffs! I would switch to Company Commander buffs in an instant! Can I have a Lieutenant that allows two squads of marines shoot their bolt weapons twice? Or his regular buff, only for two squads, or swith to Captain buff for those squads in case they need to shoot with overheated plasma? Or move twice, or fall back and move, or fight twice! Jesus, I think I found a way to fix the marines, give them IG orders!

It also presupposes that the SM LT actualy can do something with the stats. In practice it just gets run over by shining spears like a company commander. So why pay for him? I'd much rather have my points spread out so the shining spears might only kill 30 pts in one charge, and have to charge again to get the other 30 pts.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


For what the commander actually does, which is just "shout at people", 30 points doesn't seem far off. An SM Lieutennant costs 60, better stats, better buff, better gear options etc.

Lieutenant definitely doesn't have better buffs! I would switch to Company Commander buffs in an instant! Can I have a Lieutenant that allows two squads of marines shoot their bolt weapons twice? Or his regular buff, only for two squads, or swith to Captain buff for those squads in case they need to shoot with overheated plasma? Or move twice, or fall back and move, or fight twice! Jesus, I think I found a way to fix the marines, give them IG orders!

If you ignore the number of units/points they can buff at a time, sure. But when I can plunk down a 60 point model that can simultaneously buff 1500+ points of models (fairly common for me), I'll take the Lieutenant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It also presupposes that the SM LT actualy can do something with the stats. In practice it just gets run over by shining spears like a company commander. So why pay for him? I'd much rather have my points spread out so the shining spears might only kill 30 pts in one charge, and have to charge again to get the other 30 pts.

With the recent FAQ the Shining Spears should have a much harder time getting to your Lt.

Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

This would matter if snipers were viable in a general sense. Being buffed up by Bobby G doesn't count, and never has.

Shining spears just multicharge and murder everything anyway. Marines, the glorious super human troopers are victims again.

But as we’ve established, Marines suck.

And yet they’re nearly 5 times as durable to what gets past character protection.