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 JNAProductions wrote:
Outside of Rapid Fire range, mind you. With optimal conditions for the bikes.

Or, if we assume optimal for both...

Bikes kill, as per your math, 55 Guardsmen.
Warriors kill...

Spoiler:

120 shots
80 hits
160/3 wounds
400/9 failed saves
44.44 dead Guardsmen

60 swings
40 hits
80/3 wounds
160/9 failed saves
17.78 dead Guardsmen

62.22 Guardsmen under the same optimal circumstances.

Against Guardsmen, they are LESS EFFECTIVE than Necron flipping Warriors. A crappy unit.

You are missing the point. If you spam 18 harlie bikes and can do ether of these in a turn - you are TAC. Kill and entire brigade of infantry squads or drop a castellan knight and then some.

Plus - their close combat weapons are pretty good against elite things too. ap-3 flat 2 damage.

No one was considering Harlequin bikes before Knights were the meta, though. Because why pay that much for a gun that's pretty bland unless there's a really tough vehicle?

In Dark Eldar I can pay the same points for Shredders in my Scourges.

Haywire: D3 shots, 4, -1.
Shredder: D6 shots, 6, -1.

Same price.

OTOH, they're quite vulnerable to things like Boltguns and Lasguns.

Bharring wrote:
OTOH, they're quite vulnerable to things like Boltguns and Lasguns.

There have to be boltguns and lasguns alive to make that happen. Their speed let's them decide when and where they impact, and killing 60+ guardsmen makes a pretty big hole in the line that's not returning fire.

They are 900 points, about, right?

So, subtract 240 points of Guard, and you have 165 Guard.

That’s 330 shots.
110 hits.
37 about wounds.
And 18-19 wounds unsaved.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They are 900 points, about, right?

So, subtract 240 points of Guard, and you have 165 Guard.

That’s 330 shots.
110 hits.
37 about wounds.
And 18-19 wounds unsaved.

Ok, now find a board where you can get 165 guardsmen all within rapid fire range of the bikes, after those bikes burned a 60 model hole in the line to give themselves a safety zone. Because that's where the pure damage math model falls apart. The theoretical maximum damage output of guardsmen is dramatically hampered in practice because of the physical restraints of the board.

Bharring wrote:
OTOH, they're quite vulnerable to things like Boltguns and Lasguns.

Not really. They are base -1 to hit. Have stratagems for 3++ and can go to -2 to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
No one was considering Harlequin bikes before Knights were the meta, though. Because why pay that much for a gun that's pretty bland unless there's a really tough vehicle?

In Dark Eldar I can pay the same points for Shredders in my Scourges.

Haywire: D3 shots, 4, -1.
Shredder: D6 shots, 6, -1.

Same price.

Haywire is d6 for harliquens. That is a huge difference. They also are useful vs all vehicals - very few armies have 0 vehicals. If you can kill a 28 wound castellan with them. You can kill 2 of any other vehical.

"Very few armies have zero vehicles."

Most Daemon armies.
Tyranids.

We are talking about targets where a smite can set you back 51 points, i fully expect it to at least have some way trough stratagems to survive.
They are good sure, but as Marma said, no one was bothering with them previously, and there's a reason.

They are the counter to high invul vehicles, but for anything else Shining Spears are better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Mathhammer wise 18 bikes fail to take down a Castellan (but not by much). They need doom to make it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
"Very few armies have zero vehicles."

Most Daemon armies.
Tyranids.

So, effectively no one then. If those were my only potentially horrible matchups coming in to a tournament I'd say my list was off to a good start.

 JNAProductions wrote:
"Very few armies have zero vehicles."

Most Daemon armies.
Tyranids.

Yeah and guess what's great at clearing out termies? d6 ap-1 str4. -1 to hit also hurts nids badly too.
Daemons admitably they aren't great vs daemons. They are pretty good at clearing cultist though.

You're missing the point.

There are more effective weapons than Haywire you can take.

And there are a TON of meta army netlists you'll encounter that have 0 vehicles.