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Everyone should stop worrying about how others choose to have fun.

 Peregrine wrote:

The real reason PL exists is for virtue signalling about how "casual" a player you are. By sabotaging your own experience you get to show off how little you care about good game design or balance or anything even vaguely related to the hated competitive play, establishing your "casual" credentials. This is why PL advocates will constantly talk about how great PL is for "casual" games without ever proving the claim, and treat "it isn't worse than conventional points sometimes" as equivalent to "it works better". They know there's no advantage from a pure game design point of view, it's all about smug moral superiority about their chosen approach to the game.

This is true. All advocates of Power Level are morally superior to Peregrine in every way.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Everyone should stop worrying about how others choose to have fun.

right? "How dare you have fun differently, how dare you not take all this 100% seriously?"

Apologies to those who are just discussing this as an intellectual exercise but get a grip. Some people use power level and find it a perfectly adequate system. As the great philosopher said, deal with it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Aside from aesthetic - I don't give my Guard sergeants fists because they don't appeal to me. On the other hand, I don't care about ever getting to use the plasma pistol on my Devastator Sergeant, but in points systems, even if I didn't want to use it, I'd have to pay for it.

I don't care about my list being unoptimised for PL. I don't care that I'm not maxing out what I could take. I do take issue with being discouraged from taking aesthetic upgrades in points system.

So you don't really get to use the Plasma Pistol on your Sergeant, and you complain if you want it you need to pay points for it? Even though you don't get to use it? So you probably shouldn't pay points for a upgrade that you won't use.

That's literally the same as I made mention of earlier about cramming as many upgrades as you can into a unit because they are effectively free.

Also that's HARDLY an aesthetic upgrade. That's an actual frickin weapon. Convert your Bolt Pistol fancy for all I care. If you want a Plasma Pistol though you need to pay for it.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

The real reason PL exists is for virtue signalling about how "casual" a player you are. By sabotaging your own experience you get to show off how little you care about good game design or balance or anything even vaguely related to the hated competitive play, establishing your "casual" credentials. This is why PL advocates will constantly talk about how great PL is for "casual" games without ever proving the claim, and treat "it isn't worse than conventional points sometimes" as equivalent to "it works better". They know there's no advantage from a pure game design point of view, it's all about smug moral superiority about their chosen approach to the game.

This is true. All advocates of Power Level are morally superior to Peregrine in every way.

It's even funnier that Peregrine berates PL players for "smug moral superiority". Truly brilliant levels of self-awareness!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

The real reason PL exists is for virtue signalling about how "casual" a player you are. By sabotaging your own experience you get to show off how little you care about good game design or balance or anything even vaguely related to the hated competitive play, establishing your "casual" credentials. This is why PL advocates will constantly talk about how great PL is for "casual" games without ever proving the claim, and treat "it isn't worse than conventional points sometimes" as equivalent to "it works better". They know there's no advantage from a pure game design point of view, it's all about smug moral superiority about their chosen approach to the game.

This is true. All advocates of Power Level are morally superior to Peregrine in every way.

It's even funnier that Peregrine berates PL players for "smug moral superiority". Truly brilliant levels of self-awareness!

It's probably because you're defending a bad system by saying it's fine if you don't break it. That makes NO sense to defend a system like that.

But see that the difference. We don't see it as a bad system.

That and you can say the same thing about the point system. Its fine, if you don't break it.

auticus wrote:
That and you can say the same thing about the point system. Its fine, if you don't break it.

At least the upgrades aren't free. You can make it a different price on the regular point system, but they're always free with Power Level.

 Galef wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Your looking through the lenses of the only reason to take an unit, option or upgrade is win da GAME. Rather than, let me take something because it looks cool or fits the background. PL is for quickly having a fun friendly game or trying something new. Like every other version 40k, the game works better if both players hold back from breaking the game wide open.

in that case why do you need power levels at all? Why not just ignore points and PL altogether and just place models on the table and then play

Because even in a "who cares let's just roll dice" game you want at least SOME measure that 2 opposing armies are roughly equal.
50 GK terminators vs 100 Ork Boys probably isn't going to be a fun game for the Orks. But if you use PLs, you'll see that 25 GKTs vs 200 Ork Boys is probably more fair for both sides and therefore more fun.

Points are used when more "nit-picking" is required

-

points would also do the same thing but would be less likely to cause an unbalanced game the PLs

That’s what I do not get. You say you want the game to be roughly equal but then say it better to use the army building system that is least likely to do that

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[As far as I see it, it's freedom to take whatever I think looks cool or fluffy or simply how I've modelled it. I wouldn't, nor would my opponents, take wargear that wasn't modelled on the model, because that would be abusing the intent of the game we're playing.

A more granular system discourages me from taking equipment because I like the look of it. I love the look of Sergeants tooled up with exotic melee weapons, pistols, etc etc. Devastator Sergeant with plasma pistol and thunder hammer? Sign me up! In points, that would be hamstringing myself, because why would I pay points for equipment I'm hardly ever going to use?

If you're going in to Power Level with the mentality of "I must take everything to maximise combat potential", then that's exactly why you shouldn't play Power Level.

If you don't care about maximising combat potential when using power level, why would you care that taking options which hamstring yourself when using points?
You have the exact same freedom to take whatever you think looks cool under either system.

Either you care about maximising potential or you don't, surely? Why would whether you care about if you're hamstringing yourself change due to which version of a points system you're using?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So you don't really get to use the Plasma Pistol on your Sergeant, and you complain if you want it you need to pay points for it? Even though you don't get to use it? So you probably shouldn't pay points for a upgrade that you won't use.

But I'm not stopping myself taking other units by taking that aesthetic choice. I've got nothing wrong with "paying" for it. I'm more annoyed about having to sacrifice other units because my guys are how I modeled them.

That's literally the same as I made mention of earlier about cramming as many upgrades as you can into a unit because they are effectively free.

Not really. I don't go in with the mindset of "ooh, I need to maximise the irrelevant point value of this unit and make EVERYTHING as powerful as it can be!!". I go in with the mindset of "I'd like this unit, and this unit, and this unit. He looks like a cool model, I'll grab you. Yeah, lemme roll to hit with his... plasma gun? Yup, looks like a plasma gun to me, let's go!"

Call it stupid, call it what you want, but that's my PERSONAL idea of enjoyment.

Also that's HARDLY an aesthetic upgrade. That's an actual frickin weapon. Convert your Bolt Pistol fancy for all I care. If you want a Plasma Pistol though you need to pay for it.

The model is a plasma, because that's what I thought looked cool. It's not a bolt pistol. I've got bolt pistols on other guys.

Sorry, but I'd rather play a game which is more relaxed, and PERSONALLY more fun to me, than have someone demanding I pay for what is essentially a cosmetic upgrade (seeing as it won't be used).

Thought I'd emphasise that "personally", because it appears that my idea of fun is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

The real reason PL exists is for virtue signalling about how "casual" a player you are. By sabotaging your own experience you get to show off how little you care about good game design or balance or anything even vaguely related to the hated competitive play, establishing your "casual" credentials. This is why PL advocates will constantly talk about how great PL is for "casual" games without ever proving the claim, and treat "it isn't worse than conventional points sometimes" as equivalent to "it works better". They know there's no advantage from a pure game design point of view, it's all about smug moral superiority about their chosen approach to the game.

This is true. All advocates of Power Level are morally superior to Peregrine in every way.

It's even funnier that Peregrine berates PL players for "smug moral superiority". Truly brilliant levels of self-awareness!

It's probably because you're defending a bad system by saying it's fine if you don't break it. That makes NO sense to defend a system like that.

Point are fine, until they're broken. See - I dunno, every model whose point have been changed since 8th? Why bother defending them? /sarcasm

Because I enjoy the system of PL. You don't. Good for you. Let people enjoy things, especially when they don't affect you.

PL is less accurate, but somewhat easier to use point system. Nothing less, nothing more. If you think the increased ease of use is worth the lost accuracy go for it, if you don't, then don't.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[As far as I see it, it's freedom to take whatever I think looks cool or fluffy or simply how I've modelled it. I wouldn't, nor would my opponents, take wargear that wasn't modelled on the model, because that would be abusing the intent of the game we're playing.

A more granular system discourages me from taking equipment because I like the look of it. I love the look of Sergeants tooled up with exotic melee weapons, pistols, etc etc. Devastator Sergeant with plasma pistol and thunder hammer? Sign me up! In points, that would be hamstringing myself, because why would I pay points for equipment I'm hardly ever going to use?

If you're going in to Power Level with the mentality of "I must take everything to maximise combat potential", then that's exactly why you shouldn't play Power Level.

If you don't care about maximising combat potential when using power level, why would you care that taking options which hamstring yourself when using points?

Because paying for that power sword means I can't buy X unit, because now I went over the points limit.

I don't mind having to skimp on a unit because I bought another unit. I mind being penalised for what is essentially aesthetic upgrades.

You have the exact same freedom to take whatever you think looks cool under either system.

Not really. In points, I have to pay for the option to take what looks cool. In PL, I can take what I want.

Either you care about maximising potential or you don't, surely? Why would whether you care about if you're hamstringing yourself change due to which version of a points system you're using?

I don't care about potential. I care about the message being sent, which is "yeah, you built your guy like this, so you gotta pay for that. Sorry, can't take that unit now, because you thought he looked cool."

I could play points, but why would I, when I get more personal enjoyment from PL?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
PL is less accurate, but somewhat easier to use point system. Nothing less, nothing more. If you think the increased ease of use is worth the lost accuracy go for it, if you don't, then don't.

Succinct, to the point. Agreed absolutely.

It isn't our fault you lack the skill to fit in the upgrades you want.

 Crimson wrote:
PL is less accurate, but somewhat easier to use point system. Nothing less, nothing more. If you think the increased ease of use is worth the lost accuracy go for it, if you don't, then don't.

In this thread we don't take to that kind of sensible talk. "Get to fighting or get away!"

It really isn't hard to use regular points. Seriously.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

auticus wrote:
That and you can say the same thing about the point system. Its fine, if you don't break it.

At least the upgrades aren't free. You can make it a different price on the regular point system, but they're always free with Power Level.

Thats correct. The upgrades aren't free. But either method ends in a broken mess if you break the points / power level. Broken Mess == Broken Mess to me.

 Crimson wrote:
PL is less accurate, but somewhat easier to use point system. Nothing less, nothing more. If you think the increased ease of use is worth the lost accuracy go for it, if you don't, then don't.

You'd think it would be that simple.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't our fault you lack the skill to fit in the upgrades you want.

I've been playing for long enough that I could, and used to, do just that.

Then I moved on. I don't think that has anything to do with skill.

I have my preferences. You keep yours. I don't insult yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really isn't hard to use regular points. Seriously.

Even easier than letting people enjoy things that have no effect on you?

Say it ain't so.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't our fault you lack the skill to fit in the upgrades you want.

I've been playing for long enough that I could, and used to, do just that.

Then I moved on. I don't think that has anything to do with skill.

I have my preferences. You keep yours. I don't insult yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really isn't hard to use regular points. Seriously.

Even easier than letting people enjoy things that have no effect on you?

Say it ain't so.

So because you have fun with power levels means we can’t have a discussion on a forum about which point system is better?

"better" is subjective and is based on what you want. PL is better at being easy to use, for example. So, there's not much to discuss really, just let people choose what they like.

I've found that Power Levels make list building for narrative games much easier. No need to worry about the fiddly points, it's too granular sometimes, being 5 points over in a 2000 point game isn't cool, but being under, sure, even though that 5 points is 0.25% of the max.

I've always run with points having a +- 1 % margin.

Power levels nix that issue. And if there's a mis balance in PL, due to narrative list building, the book actually tells you how to address that by giving CP.

I've seen many posts where people say that 40k should price things on a per unit, rather than per model basis. It's a good idea. PL is basically that, but if you bring that up, the folks advocating per unit pricing backtrack.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Because paying for that power sword means I can't buy X unit, because now I went over the points limit.

You're rather selfishly looking at this from the point of view of what makes your personal army best and choosing the point system that allows you to optimize it. Have you considered the opposite situation? For example, the fact that a squad with flamers is cheaper than one with plasma guns in the conventional point system might allow you to include X unit, while the PL point system has both upgrades cost the same and denies the opportunity to make the first unit cheaper and free up enough points to take X.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really. I don't go in with the mindset of "ooh, I need to maximise the irrelevant point value of this unit and make EVERYTHING as powerful as it can be!!". I go in with the mindset of "I'd like this unit, and this unit, and this unit. He looks like a cool model, I'll grab you. Yeah, lemme roll to hit with his... plasma gun? Yup, looks like a plasma gun to me, let's go!"

Call it stupid, call it what you want, but that's my PERSONAL idea of enjoyment.

I will call it stupid because it is stupid, and I seriously doubt you (or anyone else) actually play that way. Are you honestly telling me you care so little about the rules that you don't even know what weapons your models are armed with until you look down at the table (after rolling dice to hit) and see what they're holding? That you don't make any strategic plans and just say "let me roll some dice, who knows what they might be"? If that's genuinely your attitude towards the game why even play a game at all? Just make gun noises and push your toys around the table.

Sorry, but I'd rather play a game which is more relaxed, and PERSONALLY more fun to me, than have someone demanding I pay for what is essentially a cosmetic upgrade (seeing as it won't be used).

Oh really? Never going to be used? You mean, if your model with a plasma pistol is within 12" of a target you're going to decline to shoot because it's "just cosmetic"? Of course not. You're going to shoot that plasma pistol. What you're asking for here is to get the power of the upgrades you're taking without having to pay for them.

Perigrine once again does a smackdown of common sense.

 CrownAxe wrote:

So because you have fun with power levels means we can’t have a discussion on a forum about which point system is better?

If you guys can stop being condescending, you'll get a conversation. But since Peregrine & Slayer-fan continue to act like we're a bunch of moronic donkey-caves, then no you won't.

If you think points are that hard to calculate that you need power levels...yeah you wouldn't be terribly smart.

Nice strawman.

It's hardly a straw man when it's the only justification for PL, other than virtue signalling. Over and over again PL advocates talk about how much easier it is to do the basic math of adding up point costs.

Your problem is you don't respect anyone that disagrees with you.