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For the first time I was looking online at the data scrolls for the figures in the Know No Fear set, and I noticed the Power Levels. What are these? I thought the codexes came with more points per model. These Power Levels seem rather generic. Were they only used for the Know No Fear set, or the Dark Imperium and the First Strike as well?

I was trying to see if the forces included in Know No Fear were balanced and it seems to be 33-29 in favor of the Imperium. I was thinking, that if you wanted to add additional models to the Know No Fear set, like a Lieutenant, how you would know his Power Level if they didn't use that point system in Dark Imperium?

All units have power levels. They're basically simplified alternative points. Most people prefer using actual points.

The real question is WHAT DOES THE SCANNER SAY ABOUT HIS POWER LEVEL?

 Crimson wrote:
All units have power levels. They're basically simplified alternative points. Most people prefer using actual points.

So they are provided in the codex alongside regular point values?

Yep.

Allegedly some people play games to Power Level limits rather than points, but I've never met any of them.

EDIT - Well, not alongside, no. Points are listed in the back, Power Level on the datasheet of the unit.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
All units have power levels. They're basically simplified alternative points. Most people prefer using actual points.

So they are provided in the codex alongside regular point values?

They are on every single datasheet

I've played plenty of PL games. They are fine for pick up games. I wouldn't use them for organised play

Power level tends to come to within about 5% of 1PL = 20pts if you aren't building a list to deliberately exploit corner cases. It's fine for pick-up games but the fact that you can deliberately exploit corner cases makes it not a great idea for competitive games.

Power level also is REALLY screwy with some armies, especially ones with lots of weird points. For example, Chaos Spawn are 2 power level, because they're 33 points. That's a 7 point reduction when converted to a points list. Cultists are worth 3 power level, equally 60 points...Even though the absolute maximum you could ever achieve is 49 in a 10 man squad, meaning it would be a closer estimate to have it be 2 power, but since that'd make their wargear 100% free, they couldn't possibly do that.

Daemons also have a similar issue, where they are priced to estimate the total cost on top of always having an instrument and/or icon per 10 models, when we all know you basically only ever need one of each, regardless of unit size, meaning the cost is fine for 10 bloodletters or horrors, but the moment you go up to 30, it's mildly over expensive.

Power levels were the way that GW intended people to play the game. Not implemented very well, and somewhat generic, they aren't very endearing to people.

GW provided points used in Match Play in a data sheet at the back of the book. This was on purpose as the points in match play are intended to change over time as the game grows or changes and some models gain or lose battlefield roles and power.

Hi, power level player here.

Every datasheet will have a Power Level recorded on it, so models in Know No Fear, or even new out of any recent box, will have Power Level attached.

It's not designed for ultra-precise, uber-competitive gameplay which I've largely fallen out of love with.
Yes, there can be abuses and shortfalls (not taking heavy weapons on Devastators, for example, would be a massive shortfall), but I find that it lets me play with wargear I'd never normally consider, and play a more relaxed WYSIWYG.

I have Battlescribe, and I still maintain that Power Level is faster to build lists. I know there's die-hard Power Level opposers out there, and they're welcome to that opinion, but my personal experience of PL is far better than normal points.

As said above, roughly every 20 points is worth 1 PL.

If you play the game long enough, you learn your codex points by heart. Heck, if you play often enough you can learn MULTIPLE codexes by heart. I know roughly half the game's point values, and I play weekly. My friend plays Orks and plays maybe once every two months, and can still remember every point value. It's not rocket science, or advanced.If you have even a shred of devotion for the game, you can easily remember 20-30 different numbers.

PL is also provenly bad for narrative games, since unless you bring perfectly even unit sizes, you are reducing your army size considerably. If I want to bring Khorne Berzerker units of 8 for fluff reasons, I automatically lose out on 32 points worth of models without even adding wargear.

Oh, I've been playing long enough that I can remember points from several editions ago, for multiple codexes. Remembering isn't a problem.

But frankly, I don't care enough to calculate every weapon, every upgrade, every model, when I'll have a more relaxed game taking a blank unit, paying a flat price, and just playing by what I see on the model.

Of course, YMMV.

Power levels could have worked, GW just approached them wrong.

I think if they had said...

A Tac squad is PL 10. It comes with a Sarge with a Plasma Pistol and Power fist, and it is 10 men, and 1 has a Lascannon, and one has a plasma gun, but at no cost change you can take these weapons, (all the normal tac squad weapon swaps) And at no cost you can take less models if desired)

It would have done better. Not sure why they didn't do that. And of course did that for all the options. Predators come with Dual lascannon turrets, Lascannon sponson, a HK missile, and a Stormbolter. But you can take less.. The Rhino comes with all these, but you can take less, no charge.

Well they didn't, so PL isn't going to work.

Power Level was GW du... STREAMLINING the game because people apparently found points too difficult to work out. Rumour has it they were going to axe points entirely but the playtest team threatened to out them and cause a backlash if they did.

It's basically a way for people to bash their toy soldiers together without accounting for every single upgrade. Only works if you pretend that the point of a game is to win, because otherwise it's free Plasma Guns and Power Fists for everyone.

Reemule wrote:
Power levels could have worked, GW just approached them wrong.

I think if they had said...

A Tac squad is PL 10. It comes with a Sarge with a Plasma Pistol and Power fist, and it is 10 men, and 1 has a Lascannon, and one has a plasma gun, but at no cost change you can take these weapons, (all the normal tac squad weapon swaps) And at no cost you can take less models if desired)

It would have done better. Not sure why they didn't do that. And of course did that for all the options. Predators come with Dual lascannon turrets, Lascannon sponson, a HK missile, and a Stormbolter. But you can take less.. The Rhino comes with all these, but you can take less, no charge.

Well they didn't, so PL isn't going to work.

I really fail to see where the difference is functionally...

 Crimson wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Power levels could have worked, GW just approached them wrong.

I think if they had said...

A Tac squad is PL 10. It comes with a Sarge with a Plasma Pistol and Power fist, and it is 10 men, and 1 has a Lascannon, and one has a plasma gun, but at no cost change you can take these weapons, (all the normal tac squad weapon swaps) And at no cost you can take less models if desired)

It would have done better. Not sure why they didn't do that. And of course did that for all the options. Predators come with Dual lascannon turrets, Lascannon sponson, a HK missile, and a Stormbolter. But you can take less.. The Rhino comes with all these, but you can take less, no charge.

Well they didn't, so PL isn't going to work.

I really fail to see where the difference is functionally...

Assigning PL based on the most expensive possible loadout rather than some imaginary average.

Which has its own problems, because you then have to say things "Here's your Deathwatch Veteran squad, it costs 30 PL, but you can have boltguns if you want to, you just still have to pay 60pts/model for a model that's overpriced at 18pts".

I'm curious if PLs work if players are limited to what can actually be made out of the box. Overall, I think they actually work fine for the most part, but they're not done in a way that gives players to trust that they work at all.

It's just for pick up and play.
But as always with the fanbase it's abused by a minority and so shunned by the majority.

 vaklor4 wrote:
The real question is WHAT DOES THE SCANNER SAY ABOUT HIS POWER LEVEL?

Considering Roboute Guilliman is only 18 PL, I wonder what the hell 9000 power level would look like


Also its the scouter not scanner. Minor correction

 LunarSol wrote:
I'm curious if PLs work if players are limited to what can actually be made out of the box. Overall, I think they actually work fine for the most part, but they're not done in a way that gives players to trust that they work at all.

I once compared my WYSIWYG army with my brother's (both built straight out of the box): going from equal PL to points we were about 30 pts off in a 50 PL game. I tried a couple variants and they were all fairly close in pts. Generally, the more varied the army, the closer it gets. (cuz averages)

That said, we rarely ever have games of equal PL. Generally we play within 5PL of each other, but we have had larger differences. And in the casual setting the difference isn't really felt since most of our games have been pretty close, usually ending only because we run out of turns.
Disclaimer: we play Cities of Death with loads of terrain, so pretty much every unit is rocking a 2+ or 3+ sv which is why our games last so long. (ever tried flushing 2+ sv guardsmen out of a ruin? Spoiler: it's not easy)

 vaklor4 wrote:
If you play the game long enough, you learn your codex points by heart.

Until GW revises the points in Chapter Approved.

 Ghaz wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
If you play the game long enough, you learn your codex points by heart.

Until GW revises the points in Chapter Approved.

It's usually not gonna be by a large amount though. I already know Intercessors are 18 points off the top of my head, and the base is 20 with Deathwatch.

Ah, power levels...the most fun thing to watch people get upset about. It's a mechanic to play with a softer value system which isn't as detailed...and is then berated heavily for...not being detailed.

If the system had been implemented any different, it would be just as berated - most notably by the people who don't use it.

Power level is (as mentioned above) essentially one power level per 20 points, assuming "most" wargear options, and infantry are priced in blocks. The intent is to provide you with a game in which your armies will end up being within a couple hundred points of each other (i.e. a negligible difference for most games).

Because infantry are purchased in blocks, people whinge and complain. In many instances a squad is five models, and another one-to-five models is X additional power. This is to cover any number of additional models without a player getting anything for free (because you can imagine the shitstorm which would occur if units had a more averaged cost and people took the best options, essentially getting some items for "free" --- the world would be on fire).

Power Level is completely fine for new players, quick pick up games, super fast army building, larger games like Apocalypse style games, etc. People who rage against power level existing (because somehow that affects them) have historically been non-power players, and refuse to acknowledge that power level can be understood and built against similar to points. They'd rather foam at the mouth and trash talk something they don't use - because this is the internet?

Power Level is also not adjusted the way points are - because the power level values are intended for a "close enough" army building method, and mathhammer is thrown out the window. Note that the majority of Forgeworld large and superheavy vehicles experiences a gigantic points hike, but their power level stayed the same. So if you're doing a big silly apocalypse game, or just power level gaming, they're still the same original cheaper cost. This prevents them from being taken frequently in tournaments, but they're still not priced out of normal or narrative play.

I have no idea what you're talking about but I've never seen anyone ever complain about PL existing. Number one complaint I've ever seen is that it's done kinda poorly.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about but I've never seen anyone ever complain about PL existing. Number one complaint I've ever seen is that it's done kinda poorly.

I have. The internet is a strange place sometimes.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
The real question is WHAT DOES THE SCANNER SAY ABOUT HIS POWER LEVEL?

Considering Roboute Guilliman is only 18 PL, I wonder what the hell 9000 power level would look like


Also its the scouter not scanner. Minor correction

And now I'm imagining DBZ Abridged Nappa running around the 40k universe like some version of Trazyn the Infinite: "Vegeta, it's a Squig! Can I keep it?"

At least his baldness would fit right in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about but I've never seen anyone ever complain about PL existing. Number one complaint I've ever seen is that it's done kinda poorly.

It was a over a year ago, but when PL was revealed at the start of the edition I remember a lot of freaking out about GW dumbing down the game and getting ride of points, ect, ect, ect. That largely died down as time went one and I think most people forgot about it.

That said, locally PL was popular in the indexes, but as the codexes have come out and we have more options (for some units) and more special rules being stacked up I've seen a shift to points being more common.

I don't dislike PL myself, but it needs some fine-tuning (like maybe adding the cost of certain weapons into the PL for units or something), but it was definitely an interesting idea that could work with more finetuning. That said PL needs to be adjusted based on unit points cost. When Intercessors dropped from 20 to 18ppm they dropped 20 points for a full sized squad of 10 and that should have been changed in their PL, but it was left alone.

Ah forgive me guys, I was inactive at the time. I guess the kneejerk stupidity dies off, and the lingering complaints are a little more rational.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Hi, power level player here.

Every datasheet will have a Power Level recorded on it, so models in Know No Fear, or even new out of any recent box, will have Power Level attached.

It's not designed for ultra-precise, uber-competitive gameplay which I've largely fallen out of love with.
Yes, there can be abuses and shortfalls (not taking heavy weapons on Devastators, for example, would be a massive shortfall), but I find that it lets me play with wargear I'd never normally consider, and play a more relaxed WYSIWYG.

I have Battlescribe, and I still maintain that Power Level is faster to build lists. I know there's die-hard Power Level opposers out there, and they're welcome to that opinion, but my personal experience of PL is far better than normal points.

As said above, roughly every 20 points is worth 1 PL.

Yep, this is pretty much my view of it too. I've no real problem with points but I've been really enjoying how quick and easy PLs make things.

I honestly wish MORE people picked up PL, and that GW improved it to make it better for you guys. The better the split in the rulings they make between the competitive and casual community the better for everyone. This last FAQ embodies why.

Honestly, Im fine with people using PL, but i'd never use PL myself aside from Apocalypse games (where I can't be asked to count up 10,000+ points of wargear and models.)

The major complaint I have for PL is chapter approved and the major FAQs. GW have done absolutely zip all to amend the power level for the units changed in those FAQs and the book, even though some of them REALLY need it.

If you do PL, Guilliman is still an absolutely undercosted monster, since all of his nerfs were from the FAQs and the CA book.

That's just a radical example, but a really good example none the less.