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 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hellguns were just the oldschool S3 AP5 Lasguns weren't they?

Yep, but Cruddace opened the door for some differentiation. They removed the text referring to the Scions' weaponry as "hellguns"(it took two editions! they missed a reference to it in the copy/paste for Stormtroopers from the Doctrines to first Cruddace book and copy/pasted the same bit from Stormtroopers to Scions) and removed it from the Krieg Grenadiers this edition.

I've been looking at Hellguns as an option that's a sidestep from Hotshots and standard Lasguns

Something like this:
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2

Putting them as Assault rather than Rapid Fire opens up an interesting venue for them to actually have a niche compared to Hotshots while giving them shorter range but point higher of Strength and a point less of AP means that Scions can still have a place assuming we can ever get rid of the concept of them just being suicide drop squads.

Check my Scion list in the army list page. Besides the 3 suicide plasma squads (plus arguable 4th suicide melta squad) its just super killy.

That's NOT a sidestep as long as they would have S4. It's a straight upgrade.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's NOT a sidestep as long as they would have S4. It's a straight upgrade.

Ehh...I'd say it's a sidestep when considering Rapid Fire and the additional AP.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's NOT a sidestep as long as they would have S4. It's a straight upgrade.

Ehh...I'd say it's a sidestep when considering Rapid Fire and the additional AP.

Look at the two profiles side by side:
S4 AP-1 Assault 2
S3 AP-2 Rapid Fire 1

Are you absolutely certain that's a sidestep?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Something like this:
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2

Putting them as Assault rather than Rapid Fire opens up an interesting venue for them to actually have a niche compared to Hotshots while giving them shorter range but point higher of Strength and a point less of AP means that Scions can still have a place assuming we can ever get rid of the concept of them just being suicide drop squads.

Um... Hot-shot lasguns have 18" range.

Just because AM doesnt place the top at every major tourney doesn't mean its NOT OP.

It just means there are other MORE OP armies, i.e. imperial soup & dark eldar soup.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's NOT a sidestep as long as they would have S4. It's a straight upgrade.

Ehh...I'd say it's a sidestep when considering Rapid Fire and the additional AP.

Look at the two profiles side by side:
S4 AP-1 Assault 2
S3 AP-2 Rapid Fire 1

Are you absolutely certain that's a sidestep?

Sidestep is the wrong term I guess. Sidegrade? Alternative PewPew?

In this case, the Veterans would have a point higher strength a point less of AP and are Assault weapons(meaning Advance+Fire is a possibility) offering a more mobile unit that can still put out decent fire while being able to tank it as well thanks to the 4+ saves.

The Scions on the other hand have higher AP but less Strength, can benefit from FRFSRF, and are Rapid Fire allowing for a bit more of a variable slide as to how many shots they put out(especially if someone runs them as pure Tempestus allowing for their Regimental Trait to be in play).

I realize you might disagree with me here, but I've actually put a decent amount of thinking and concepting into play on the stuff that I personally want done for Guard. It probably will come to nothing though since GW seems to want to just keep the status quo.

Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.

Rapid Fire 1 at 18"=2 shots at 9", with FRFSRF bumping the number of shots up.
Scion regimental trait adds additional shots on 6+.
Scions can DS if you so choose to.

Veterans wouldn't have any of those benefits. They'd be Assault 2, period, with that 18" range.

Like I said, there's a lot I want to see for Guard and a lot of it requires tearing down the trashheap that is the Cruddace book and rebuilding the way things work. There's a lot I'd do but the OP doesn't want my lengthy diatribe so suffice to say:

I don't care if you think this is broken right now. It's something I want to see as an incentive for taking Veterans in the Elites slot. I want to see a Veterans unit that actually feels different to "Oh look it's an infantry squad hitting on 3+ instead of 4+". I want to see a Veterans unit that isn't just loaded up with plasmas or whatever the FOTM special weapon is.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.

Rapid Fire 1 at 18"=
2 shots at 9"
FRFSRF doubles the number.
Scion regimental trait adds additional shots on 6+.

Veterans wouldn't have any of those benefits. They'd be Assault 2, period, with that 18" range.

Like I said, there's a lot I want to see for Guard and a lot of it requires tearing down the trashheap that is the Cruddace book and rebuilding the way things work. There's a lot I'd do but the OP doesn't want my lengthy diatribe so suffice to say:

I don't care if you think this is broken right now. It's something I want to see as an incentive for taking Veterans in the Elites slot. I want to see a Veterans unit that actually feels different to "Oh look it's an infantry squad hitting on 3+ instead of 4+". I want to see a Veterans unit that isn't just loaded up with plasmas or whatever the FOTM special weapon is.

And SM players would love see termies as remotely viable in ANY slot, even if it may be HQ or LoW.

18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2 makes hotshot a "sidestep" to a master crafted boltguns available only to Hq's. That's a pretty big toe you're suggesting to step on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it makes more sense to give MT's a bit more model range and separate it as a standalone codex, much like how harlequins work.

Maybe a new flyer transport/variant of valkyrie and a new fast attack option.

 skchsan wrote:
And SM players would love see termies as remotely viable in ANY slot, even if it may be HQ or LoW.

18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2 makes hotshot a "sidestep" to a master crafted boltguns available only to Hq's. That's a pretty big toe you're suggesting to step on.

Guard don't have master-crafted boltguns. Nothing I've said prevents Terminators from becoming viable. You want to talk about Terminators, there's a thread.

For the record? I've thought that an additional Wound and them treating multi-damage weapons as 1 damage and treating AP as being a point less than it is would be a good step.

I think it makes more sense to give MT's a bit more model range and separate it as a standalone codex, much like how harlequins work.

We had a standalone Codex. It was a farce, with every Formation requiring a Commissar and only having Squads available while the Guard proper fielded Scions in platoons.

And I mean really, if any faction "makes more sense" to get a Codex...it's the fricking Skitarii. The literal only thing they were missing was an HQ. That's it. They're a far more complete army than Cult Mechanicus is and yet like Scions, they got rolled in.

Maybe a new flyer transport/variant of valkyrie and a new fast attack option.

We don't need more Valkyrie variants.

Worth noting that I've suggested a Scions variant on the Sentinel and Scion Heavy Weapons Squads if we absolutely have to make them a thing.
But also we could just make Taurox Primes into FA options or HS options.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assault 2 at 18" is straight up better than Rapid Fire 1 at 18". You can't be serious.

Rapid Fire 1 at 18"=2 shots at 9", with FRFSRF bumping the number of shots up.
Scion regimental trait adds additional shots on 6+.
Scions can DS if you so choose to.

Veterans wouldn't have any of those benefits. They'd be Assault 2, period, with that 18" range.

Like I said, there's a lot I want to see for Guard and a lot of it requires tearing down the trashheap that is the Cruddace book and rebuilding the way things work. There's a lot I'd do but the OP doesn't want my lengthy diatribe so suffice to say:

I don't care if you think this is broken right now. It's something I want to see as an incentive for taking Veterans in the Elites slot. I want to see a Veterans unit that actually feels different to "Oh look it's an infantry squad hitting on 3+ instead of 4+". I want to see a Veterans unit that isn't just loaded up with plasmas or whatever the FOTM special weapon is.

Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.

Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.

Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.

If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?

It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.

Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.

Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.

If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?

It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.

To be fair, SM's also have veterans that serve no purpose other than becoming ablative wounds with look-out-sir's.

AM having redundant entry in the form of veterans have no argumentative strength. If anything, they have the most useful 'veterans' in the game IMO - they're cheap carriers of special weapons at the tax of extra ablative wounds.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...

Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.

What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.

Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.

If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?

It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.

To be fair, SM's also have veterans that serve no purpose other than becoming ablative wounds with look-out-sir's.

I'm going to assume you're talking about Command Squads here. Right?

Because Command Squads, in general, are a different kettle of fish. It's an issue across quite a few books(including Guard amusingly enough...) right now that they don't do a whole lot.

AM having redundant entry in the form of veterans have no argumentative strength. If anything, they have the most useful 'veterans' in the game IMO - they're cheap carriers of special weapons at the tax of extra ablative wounds.

You're confusing a "redundant entry in the form of veterans" with something else entirely.

If you want "to be fair" then you need to factor in that you have access to Sternguard Squads, which are whole units made up of Veterans potentially able to carry Combi-Weapons for the whole squad to get a Special Weapon and their standard Boltgun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Saying they could benefit from an Order is the same thing as saying Melta is okay when you have several rerolls. Just...no.

Scions, if anything, should go to Assault 2 with their guns. I dunno how much of a price increase that requires, but that was a popular idea when 6th-7th was still a thing.

If we're going to be realistic, it doesn't matter what you do to Hellguns because Scions are going to just keep being loaded up with Plasmas as drop suicide squads. Until there's a real reason for them to be taken as anything but that?

It doesn't matter what you do with a hypothetical Veteran unit.

Which is why you make their base weapon more worth taking. You'd basically double their range with my fix, which is pretty stellar if you ask me.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Company Commander
Stays as-is, except instead of getting the Refractor for free, it's now an optional 10 point upgrade.

I would rather keep the free refactor field and have a 4+ save as a 5 pt upgrade.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Lord Commissars
Refractor Field is now a 10 point upgrade. In addition, Summary Execution now halves Morale losses, rounding up.

I would rather keep the free refactor field. Comissar rule needs to be "on a failed morale test, execute one model and redo the morale test without adding the die roll" worst case scenario is you break even.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Tempestor Prime
Good as-is.

No. Allow the tempestor prime to keep his pistol if he takes a command rod. Ridiculous that you can take a stormtrooper without a gun.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Infantry Squad
Mandatory Voxes, for 45 point guard squads.

This is not a nerf, this is a sidegrade. Guard infantry needs to be 5ppm, sorry but it's true.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Conscripts
No grenades. 6+ armor. Auxilia unit, so no orders or regimental tactics. But back down to 3 points.

They are fine at 4ppm if normal guardsmen are 5ppm. I would rather have them lose orders completely but get back their old unit size of 20-50, and retain regimental tag for traits. Valhallan conscripts should be hard to remove.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Scions
Good as-is.

I would rather have them cheaper and lose the ability to deepstrike. Then they can buy 'grav chutes' to put them back at their old price if you want. It is pointless to take dedicated transports for stormtroopers when you are paying for their deepstrike abilities as part of their cost. I would also like them to be elites, with the option to take them as troops so long as your detachment is entirely militarum tempestus (apart from commissars/advisers).

 JNAProductions wrote:
Platoon Commander
As with all other Refractor Field models, it is now a 10 point upgrade.

Platoon commanders shouldn't get refactor fields, but they should retrain the ability to buy carapace armor for 5 points. They should be moved to HQ and you should have to buy 3 for a single HQ choice.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Special Weapons Squad
Instead of "Three models must," make it "Three models may," so that way you can have more ablative wounds if you want.

Agreed, but these should go up to 5ppm too.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Veterans
Move to troops, Give a 4+ armor.

Agreed on the moving to troops, but stormtroopers have the +4 armor and it would be interfering with their niche. Veterans should stay as they are, but with the ability to upgrade with camo cloaks + snare mines for 10 points. This way, you can have an army of veterans for 6ppm, or make them a bit more specialist for 7ppm. Catachans would probably run whole armies of these.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Minisotrum Priest
Allow to be taken in twos, but deployed and acting separately, like Space Marine Lieutenants.

1-3

 JNAProductions wrote:
Scout Sentinels
Sentinel Chainsaw is D2.

Armored Sentinel
Sentinel Chainsaw is D2.

They should also get a "skirmishers" rule that allows them to move and shoot their heavy weapons without the -1 penalty. It's a nice little buff without making them overpowered, and right now a plasma cannon armored sentinel is useless unless it is standing still.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Heavy Weapons Squad
Good as-is, or at least, I don't know how to fix their incredible glass cannon nature.

They should be 15 points base (for a squad without weapons) with a special rule that gives them +1 armor save when in cover (like camo cloaks, but call it "sandbag empacements" or something). Missile Launchers should be 16 points per, there is no reason to take one when lascannons and mortars exist.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hydras
Maybe a price drop.

They need a 10 points price drop and lose the -1 to hit for shooting at ground units.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Chimera
Allow up to two models to shoot out the top in addition to the arrays.
Allow officers to issue orders from within, treating themselves as if they had a Vox.

No on the first. We don't need drive by chimeras anymore, that was incredibly stupid.
Yes on the second, absolutely agreed.
They also need a points drop.

Everything else I either agreed with or felt no particular way about.

One more to add to the mix: Voxes should give your orders infinite range, not +12".

A good start on an overhaul IMO.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...

Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.

What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...

Sorry, my mistake. Of course I should've said 'Assuming GW doesn't completely rework the Grot and give it Nob-like stats, compare them to Grots.

Their stats won't change. This version of Conscripts is still flat better than a Grot. Regardless of stratagems. Particularly with the Commissar halving morale losses.

Its not going to happen and honestly it shouldn't.

Martel732 wrote:
Primaris psyker needs + 10/15 pts.

Sure, so long as they also get to cast 2 powers per turn.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...

Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.

What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...

Sorry, my mistake. Of course I should've said 'Assuming GW doesn't completely rework the Grot and give it Nob-like stats, compare them to Grots.

...lol?

Their stats won't change. This version of Conscripts is still flat better than a Grot. Regardless of stratagems.

That's nice. Good to know that you think Grots are going to be garbage no matter what.

Particularly with the Commissar halving morale losses.

What do you think Commissars do? Because they don't "halve morale losses". They don't put a cap into how many guys you can lose from Morale. They haven't done that since the beatstick that they received at the book's first FAQ. It took roughly a year for us to get this dumpsterfire ability:

Summary Execution:
The first time an Astra Militarum unit fails a Morale test during the Morale phase whilst it is within 6" of any friendly Commissars, you can execute a model. If you do, one model of your choice in that unit is slain and the Morale test is re-rolled (do not include this slain model when re-rolling the Morale test)

 Kanluwen wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Conscripts are not 3 pt models even with the changes suggested. Compare them to Grots...

Since we don't know what Grots are actually going to have thanks to a new book, comparing Conscripts to them is an exercise in futility.

What if they get the Grot Shield stratagem? What if they remain the same points? What if, what if, what if...

Sorry, my mistake. Of course I should've said 'Assuming GW doesn't completely rework the Grot and give it Nob-like stats, compare them to Grots.

...lol?

Their stats won't change. This version of Conscripts is still flat better than a Grot. Regardless of stratagems.

That's nice. Good to know that you think Grots are going to be garbage no matter what.

Particularly with the Commissar halving morale losses.

What do you think Commissars do? Because they don't "halve morale losses". They don't put a cap into how many guys you can lose from Morale. They haven't done that since the beatstick that they received at the book's first FAQ. It took roughly a year for us to get this dumpsterfire ability:

Summary Execution:
The first time an Astra Militarum unit fails a Morale test during the Morale phase whilst it is within 6" of any friendly Commissars, you can execute a model. If you do, one model of your choice in that unit is slain and the Morale test is re-rolled (do not include this slain model when re-rolling the Morale test)

Read* what I wrote again.

I didn't say that Grots would be garbage tier. What I said was that the proposed Conscripts here are flat better versions for the same points.

I also said Conscripts halving morale losses as the suggestion in the OP. Y'know. The topic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Read* what I wrote again.

What you wrote is snark that attempts to pretend like Conscripts would become amazing.

I didn't say that Grots would be garbage tier. What I said was that the proposed Conscripts here are flat better versions for the same points.

Except they're not. The proposed Conscripts here lose access to Orders and Regimental Tactics by gaining the "Auxilia" keyword(which replaces <Regiment>, but you should know that right?) and also lose their Grenades.

Since Conscripts currently are BS5+ WS5+ T3 models with a 5+ save...they become BS5+ WS5+ T3 6+.

Gretchin still have higher BS and will likely retain their ability to get +1 to their hit rolls for being taken in large numbers.

I also said Conscripts halving morale losses as the suggestion in the OP. Y'know. The topic.

Conscripts don't halve morale losses in either case, it's a Commissar ability.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Read* what I wrote again.

What you wrote is snark that attempts to pretend like Conscripts would become amazing.

I didn't say that Grots would be garbage tier. What I said was that the proposed Conscripts here are flat better versions for the same points.

Except they're not. The proposed Conscripts here lose access to Orders and Regimental Tactics by gaining the "Auxilia" keyword(which replaces <Regiment>, but you should know that right?) and also lose their Grenades.

Since Conscripts currently are BS5+ WS5+ T3 models with a 5+ save...they become BS5+ WS5+ T3 6+.

Gretchin still have higher BS and will likely retain their ability to get +1 to their hit rolls for being taken in large numbers.

I also said Conscripts halving morale losses as the suggestion in the OP. Y'know. The topic.

Conscripts don't halve morale losses in either case, it's a Commissar ability.

Yes I know what auxillia means, particularly since the OP posted the meaning in their post.

Wow, Conscripts lose a few abilities. They're still flat better than gretchin at 3ppm.

Post their proposed stats, including weaponry.
Post the gretchin stats including weaponry.

Compare and explain how you reason they aren't better.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Primaris psyker needs + 10/15 pts.

Sure, so long as they also get to cast 2 powers per turn.

No, as is. They are way too good at their price point.

Martel732 wrote:
No, as is. They are way too good at their price point.

The fact that you can say this with a straight face proves that you have no interest in balance and won't be happy until guard have been nerfed into the ground.

You want a Primaris Psyker - who can cast a single spell per turn and is T3 with no save and no other meaningful abilities or weapons - to cost just 9pts less than a Psyker with better toughness, a 3++, Fly, the ability to heal off wounds caused, an aura buff for itself and similar units, an aura debuff for enemy psykers, and which can cast 2 powers per turn.

Get stuffed.

You have shown time and again that you don't want to see IG balanced, you just want to see them ruined. You won't be happy until every last model in the book is overcosted beyond all reason.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yes I know what auxillia means, particularly since the OP posted the meaning in their post.

Wow, Conscripts lose a few abilities. They're still flat better than gretchin at 3ppm.

Post their proposed stats, including weaponry.
Post the gretchin stats including weaponry.

Compare and explain how you reason they aren't better.

Conscripts:
6" WS/BS 5+ S3 T3 1W 1A LD4 6+ save
Unit starts at 20 models, can have an additional 10 to max out at 30.
Lasgun(which would be their only weapon once Frag Grenades are removed) 24" Rapid Fire 1 S3 AP0 1D
Removing <Regiment> means Raw Recruits(receives Orders on a 4+) can be removed, since they can't have Officers with Auxilia.

Gretchin:
5" WS5+ BS4+ S2 T2 1W 1A LD4 6+
Unit starts at 10 models, can have an additional 20. Presumably retains "Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers"(unit including 20+ models adds 1 to their Hit rolls)
Grot Blasta 12" Pistol 1 S3 AP0 1D
<Clan>

Do you really need me to hold your hand through why having <Clan> is better than Auxilia? Do you really need me to explain that I've not said Gretchin are better than Conscripts, but rather I'm refuting your nonsensical stance that the changes suggested still make Conscripts somehow a ridiculously better choice?

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, as is. They are way too good at their price point.

The fact that you can say this with a straight face proves that you have no interest in balance and won't be happy until guard have been nerfed into the ground.

You want a Primaris Psyker - who can cast a single spell per turn and is T3 with no save and no other meaningful abilities or weapons - to cost just 9pts less than a Psyker with better toughness, a 3++, Fly, the ability to heal off wounds caused, an aura buff for itself and similar units, an aura debuff for enemy psykers, and which can cast 2 powers per turn.

Get stuffed.

You have shown time and again that you don't want to see IG balanced, you just want to see them ruined. You won't be happy until every last model in the book is overcosted beyond all reason.

Well fact of the matter is that external balance (as in, between codex, game overall) is currently measured by the value of AM, CWE, DE & IK, and how they fair against each other. Anything in between (bar nids because they have the best internal balance so far in all the codex, maybe not so much best/OP units in the game). currently suffers from being overcosted & underperforming via special rules.

We either tone down the extremes to average or we make the average into extremes.

It's not a AM witch hunt - the external balance is severely broken and needs addressing, and guards, IK, and DE are the places to start.

 skchsan wrote:
Well fact of the matter is that external balance (as in, between codex, game overall) is currently measured by the value of AM, CWE, DE & IK, and how they fair against each other.

Except that it's actually measured by souped messes of armies which use IG as CP batteries. Or Eldar-soup armies based around Doom.

 skchsan wrote:
We either tone down the extremes to average or we make the average into extremes.

Except that no one wants to tone down the primary offender - which is the ally rules.

So instead people just pick random units, call them overpowered (because they're in one of the armies they gets used in Soup) and demand that they be nerfed. It doesn't matter if the unit clearly isn't overpowered, just pick random units and smack them with the nerf bat until they're worthless. That's the way to do balance.

 skchsan wrote:
the external balance is severely broken and needs addressing, and guards, IK, and DE are the places to start.

Why? Again, why aren't allies being fixed first? They are what is common to every winning tournament list, yet apparently they're som sort of sacred cow that must remain broken at the expense of everything else.

What's more, no one wants to address synergy in any way. For example, I notice Dark Eldar is on your list, but not Eldar. Why not? Where, in all this talk of fixing balance problems, is Doom? It should, at the very least, only apply to Eldar (not Dark Eldar or Harlequin) units attacking the target.

Nerfing Dark Eldar because Ravagers are too strong when you have Eldar allies to cast Doom just mandates that every Dark Eldar player bring an Eldar Farseer to cast Doom, since that will be the only way to make his Ravagers worth their cost.

This sort of thing is why I can demonstrably say that it is an AM witchhunt. Because the people purporting to want to address the balance, conveniently choose to "fix" (read: nerf into uselessness) every unit except the ones actually causing the issues.

If I were called in to help rewrite the IG book, I'd focus on the following things:
-Encourage mono-guard, while allowing them to ally meaningfully (No more CP batteries)
-Bring more units into the limelight
-tone down the handful of things that are too strong.

To that end, here would be my propsed changes:

A new army rule- Combined Arms: An Astra Miliatrum Battalion will give 0 CP unless it contains at least one selection from Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.

Bump Company commanders up to 35pts.
Give Lord Comissars a version of "get back in the fight" that can be stacked with other orders, bring back old summary execution, repoint accordingly

Conscripts: keep as is, but they will work well with original summary execution

Chimera: Drop 10pts or so

Sentinels: Make chainsaws +2 Attack, AP -1 D2 for +5pts

Devil Dog: Make melta cannon Assault 2 with reroll wounds
Banewolf: May fire cannon as a pistol

Commissar: bring back original summary execution

Ogryn: Drop cost 5ppm

Heavy Weapon Squads: Allow "platoons" of 1-3 per selection. Increase to 10pts per team, but are -1 to being hit unless they are the closest target, and cannot be targeted until they fire, unless they are the closest target.

Vanquisher: Increase main gun to Heavy 2, +10pts
Exterminator: Increase main gun to Heavy 8 +10pts
Eradicator: Increase main gun to Heavy 2d6, +20pts
Demolisher: -20 pts

Basilisk: +10pts
Manticore: +5pts
Wyvern: -15pts

Hydra: As long it does not move, the Hydra ignores all penalties to hit.