AndrewGPaul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:



The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.

What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?

Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.

Andykp wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:



The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.

What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?

Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.

As much as my dislike and ignoring of perpetuals is opinion so is your opinion that they are well written. My opinion is that they are a cheap plot tool badly written and not need in the 40k setting. I personally really like when the current folk in 40k get current day history all backwards and mixed up. If you think it’s been 40 odd thousand years, computers and tech went crazy and was killed and the world rebuilt by mental people and barbarians then history isn’t going to remain. It’s crazy they know anything.

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"

Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.

well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.

Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"

Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.

well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.

Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.

I never really thought that passage was up for interpretion myself, goes to show how easy it is for differant people to read things differant. me I saw it as "only thought he had written three plays" because 1: until you uncover something else you dunno how many survived. 2: given the whole jist of the conservatory was to recover lost knowledge and that "humanity isn't really sure what it's lost" I saw that statement as the writer telling us the reader that the answer is "a lot" I mean he could have chosen ANY screen write, but shakespear was named IMHO specificly because he's so widely studied, and that everyone knows he wrote more then "just 3 plays"

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"

Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.

well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.

Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.

I never really thought that passage was up for interpretion myself, goes to show how easy it is for differant people to read things differant. me I saw it as "only thought he had written three plays" because 1: until you uncover something else you dunno how many survived. 2: given the whole jist of the conservatory was to recover lost knowledge and that "humanity isn't really sure what it's lost" I saw that statement as the writer telling us the reader that the answer is "a lot" I mean he could have chosen ANY screen write, but shakespear was named IMHO specificly because he's so widely studied, and that everyone knows he wrote more then "just 3 plays"

I'm not saying it implied they would have difinitively known he wrote more either. I'm saying the implication to me is that they only know of 3. They're clearly smart enough to know there may have been more that were now completely lost.

Slipspace wrote:
Knowledge of Old Earth seems to come up every now and then as a sort of parody to highlight the ignorance of people in the 40k universe. The 3 Shakespeare plays comment reads like that sort of thing to me, and there are often references to our recent history that are woefully misinformed. It's something that's very difficult for us to understand, I think. 30,000 years is a timeframe the human brain is not programmed to be able to properly comprehend.

Preserving information even from the beginning of the digital age to now is already proving to be problematic, precisely because it's digital in nature and therefore requires another device to make the data readable. Many military and government organisations around the globe still use outdated technology because so much of their infrastructure was based around it and replacing it all would be very expensive. Once all those bits of equipment from the 60s and 70s start failing that data could be lost forever. Now multiply that timescale by a few thousand and imagine how difficult it could be to access all of the vast quantities of digital data we have such easy access to today in 30,000 years' time.

Edit: also, isn't this a 40k Background discussion?

 Grimskul wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Knowledge of Old Earth seems to come up every now and then as a sort of parody to highlight the ignorance of people in the 40k universe. The 3 Shakespeare plays comment reads like that sort of thing to me, and there are often references to our recent history that are woefully misinformed. It's something that's very difficult for us to understand, I think. 30,000 years is a timeframe the human brain is not programmed to be able to properly comprehend.

Preserving information even from the beginning of the digital age to now is already proving to be problematic, precisely because it's digital in nature and therefore requires another device to make the data readable. Many military and government organisations around the globe still use outdated technology because so much of their infrastructure was based around it and replacing it all would be very expensive. Once all those bits of equipment from the 60s and 70s start failing that data could be lost forever. Now multiply that timescale by a few thousand and imagine how difficult it could be to access all of the vast quantities of digital data we have such easy access to today in 30,000 years' time.

Edit: also, isn't this a 40k Background discussion?

Not to mention that if something like the STC was lost, and considering the sheer damage inflicted to the human colonies from the Age of Strife, it's not surprising that any information would be fragmentary and heavily warped due to the passage of time (there's a reason why there's so many variants of the Bible in the modern age for that reason).

And yeah, practically every thread from Onething is a background thread, he doesn't seem to bother reading the forum rules for where to post things. I guess he lives up to his namesake.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:



The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.

What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?

Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Why are you saying like Big E lived through those events as a fact? How do we know this? Because the Emperor said so? Characters can lie.

I'm personally of the theory the Emperor is a fraud, a high ranking techno-barbarian from Terra who used his influence/psychic powers/tech to claim everything that he did and take over. Ask yourself this- where was he in the old night? Where was he when the Men of Iron came? Strange that during these dark times of humanity the Emperor did not choose to reveal himself- Because he simply did not exist in those time periods.

Onething123456 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.

Not really, they lived through those events.


And his new name is Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson. And he did not do that.
.

beast_gts wrote:
Two quick points: time travel exists in the 40k universe, so someone could just go back and check; and the Emperor left Earth at several points - going to Mars and Molech, for example.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

No, they didn't live through every historical event; they were alive at the time, which is not the same thing. I've been alive through the Falklands War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the last two wars in Iraq, 9/11 and any number of historical events, but I didn't live through them; I just saw them on the news. My recollection of them is second- or third-hand at best. The same is true of Ollanius Pius. Less true of the Emperor because he's spent most of his existence being an eminence gris, but even so, he was only in one place at a time.

 insaniak wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

No, they didn't live through every historical event; they were alive at the time, which is not the same thing. I've been alive through the Falklands War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the last two wars in Iraq, 9/11 and any number of historical events, but I didn't live through them; I just saw them on the news. My recollection of them is second- or third-hand at best. The same is true of Ollanius Pius. Less true of the Emperor because he's spent most of his existence being an eminence gris, but even so, he was only in one place at a time.

Not to mention that 10000 years is a long time to keep track of those pesky memories... Hell, my memories of High School are already a little fuzzy on a lot of the less important details, and that was only 25 years ago. If I'm still alive in a thousand years, I very much doubt I would remember it at all.

Onething123456 wrote:
Is there any legit knowledgeable person here who has read how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth? As far as I know, they know very little. We can barely keep track of records from 2,000 years ago in our world. SO the Imperium would have it harder, especially since most were destroyed in the Age of Strife.

The Emperor knows everything about human history, as he has displayed.


The Last Church said:

"Revelation snapped his fingers. 'That's exactly my point. You pick and choose which bits of your book to take literally and which to read as symbolic, and that choosing is a matter of personal decision, not divinity. Trust me, in ages past, a frightening number of people took their holy books absolutely literally, causing untold misery and death because they truly believed the words they read. The history of religion is a horror story, Uriah, and if you doubt it, just look at what humanity has done in the name of their gods over the millennia. Thousands of years ago, a bloody theocracy that venerated a feathered-serpent god rose in the Mayan jungles. To appease this vile god, its priests drowned maidens in sacred wells and cut out the hearts of children. They believed this serpent god had an earthly counterpart and the temple builders drove the first pile through a maiden's body to pacify this non-existent creature.'Uriah turned to Revelation in horror and said, 'You can't seriously compare my religion to such heathen barbarism?''Can't I?' countered Revelation. 'In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of "Deus Vult", which means "god wills it" in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to "purify" the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse's bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of god.''That is ancient history,' said Uriah. 'You cannot vouchsafe the truth of events so lost in the mists of time.''If it were one event, I might agree with you,' replied Revelation, 'but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect's stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to "Kill them all. God will know His own". Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered. Worst of all, the hunt for any that had escaped the siege led to the establishment of an organisation known as the Inquisition, a dreadful, monstrous plague of hysteria that gave its agents free rein to stretch, burn, pierce and break their victims on fiendish pain machines to force them to confess to disbelief and identify fellow transgressors. Later, with most of their enemies hunted down and killed, the Inquisition shifted its focus to wychcraft, and priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they engaged in unnatural acts with daemons. They were then burned or hanged for their confessions and this hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations, a madness that saw whole towns exterminated and over a hundred thousand dead.'"

https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821

https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821






I read Mark of Calth. And it looks like even people during the Great Crusade did not know about Old Earth. Perpetual Oll Persson tells Katt and the other people with him about his time on Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about human history before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755




And its a fact the Emperor was born in Anatolia, as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader with shows (if you still think it is accurate to current lore http://imgur.com/dImnK6j

http://imgur.com/dImnK6j https://spikeybits.com/2018/01/nurgles-lost-the-damned-realms-of-chaos.html http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/06/40k-retro-corner-realm-of-chaos-lost-and-the-damned.html ), and as Horus says in Horus Rising on pages 354-355. But that's not the question. My question is how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth.



https://www.amazon.com/Horus-Rising-Heresy-Dan-Abnett/dp/1849707448

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Two quick points: time travel exists in the 40k universe, so someone could just go back and check; and the Emperor left Earth at several points - going to Mars and Molech, for example.

I doubt the Ordo Chronos would stand for that if they got wind. Mind you nobody knows if they exist in the 40K timeline any longer.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't recall any time travel that was voluntary and controlled in 40k lore, unless the Necrons have a secret Tardis or something in a fluff blup. Any time travel seemed to be a warp accident.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Why are you saying like Big E lived through those events as a fact? How do we know this? Because the Emperor said so? Characters can lie.

I'm personally of the theory the Emperor is a fraud, a high ranking techno-barbarian from Terra who used his influence/psychic powers/tech to claim everything that he did and take over. Ask yourself this- where was he in the old night? Where was he when the Men of Iron came? Strange that during these dark times of humanity the Emperor did not choose to reveal himself- Because he simply did not exist in those time periods.

 Formosa wrote:
[
Brains can only hold so much information and it eventually degrades as new information replaces the old, a perpetual would literally have a different personality after a long period, the old version of themselves would simply cease to exist with time.

Now if the perpetual thing applies to all health and not just injuries etc. Then thier brains would never decay, they would have perfect memories, but I don’t see how that would stop the natural function of the memory centres replacing old information with new...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Is there any legit knowledgeable person here who has read how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth? As far as I know, they know very little. We can barely keep track of records from 2,000 years ago in our world. SO the Imperium would have it harder, especially since most were destroyed in the Age of Strife.

The Emperor knows everything about human history, as he has displayed.


The Last Church said:

"Revelation snapped his fingers. 'That's exactly my point. You pick and choose which bits of your book to take literally and which to read as symbolic, and that choosing is a matter of personal decision, not divinity. Trust me, in ages past, a frightening number of people took their holy books absolutely literally, causing untold misery and death because they truly believed the words they read. The history of religion is a horror story, Uriah, and if you doubt it, just look at what humanity has done in the name of their gods over the millennia. Thousands of years ago, a bloody theocracy that venerated a feathered-serpent god rose in the Mayan jungles. To appease this vile god, its priests drowned maidens in sacred wells and cut out the hearts of children. They believed this serpent god had an earthly counterpart and the temple builders drove the first pile through a maiden's body to pacify this non-existent creature.'Uriah turned to Revelation in horror and said, 'You can't seriously compare my religion to such heathen barbarism?''Can't I?' countered Revelation. 'In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of "Deus Vult", which means "god wills it" in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to "purify" the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse's bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of god.''That is ancient history,' said Uriah. 'You cannot vouchsafe the truth of events so lost in the mists of time.''If it were one event, I might agree with you,' replied Revelation, 'but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect's stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to "Kill them all. God will know His own". Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered. Worst of all, the hunt for any that had escaped the siege led to the establishment of an organisation known as the Inquisition, a dreadful, monstrous plague of hysteria that gave its agents free rein to stretch, burn, pierce and break their victims on fiendish pain machines to force them to confess to disbelief and identify fellow transgressors. Later, with most of their enemies hunted down and killed, the Inquisition shifted its focus to wychcraft, and priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they engaged in unnatural acts with daemons. They were then burned or hanged for their confessions and this hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations, a madness that saw whole towns exterminated and over a hundred thousand dead.'"

https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821

https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821






I read Mark of Calth. And it looks like even people during the Great Crusade did not know about Old Earth. Perpetual Oll Persson tells Katt and the other people with him about his time on Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about human history before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755




And its a fact the Emperor was born in Anatolia, as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader with shows (if you still think it is accurate to current lore http://imgur.com/dImnK6j

http://imgur.com/dImnK6j https://spikeybits.com/2018/01/nurgles-lost-the-damned-realms-of-chaos.html http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/06/40k-retro-corner-realm-of-chaos-lost-and-the-damned.html ), and as Horus says in Horus Rising on pages 354-355. But that's not the question. My question is how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth.



https://www.amazon.com/Horus-Rising-Heresy-Dan-Abnett/dp/1849707448

The Imperium knows probably less about Old Earth than we know of the Ancient Sumerians. From my reading all they really know are authors and artists here and there, they have never expressed how the world was during old earth even in a basic sense. So very little.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't recall any time travel that was voluntary and controlled in 40k lore, unless the Necrons have a secret Tardis or something in a fluff blup. Any time travel seemed to be a warp accident.

 Polonius wrote:
Ask yourself: how much do you know about the Hittites, or the Sumerians, or any of the civilizations of the bronze age? Probably nothing. Maybe a bit about Egypt, but that's about it.

The thing is, all of those civilizations were from before the Bronze Dark Age. After that, there was the classical era, than another dark age, the medieval period, and the modern period.

Western thought sees linear history (compared to the more cyclical nature of some eastern thought), and so we focus on those aspects of history which relate to us. 30k occurs after at least two more dark ages, with 40k arguably the nadir of another dark age. Every dark age eliminates a fraction of what we know about the prior civilizations, and that adds up.

Andykp wrote:
Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx

Andykp wrote:
Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx

And memory is almost always right.