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Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.

Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.

Couldn't remember the champions bit. I thought it had been retconned into a theory, as everyone has said so. Turns out nope as there is no lore written on it since Inquisition war..

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.

Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.

Couldn't remember the champions bit. I thought it had been retconned into a theory, as everyone has said so. Turns out nope as there is no lore written on it since Inquisition war..

Read the starting page of 185 in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. There is Table Top for them as champions of the Star Child.



https://www.scribd.com/document/100200843/The-Lost-and-the-Damned

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOST-and-the-DAMNED-SLAVES-to-DARKNESS-Realm-of-Chaos-Wahammer-WFRP-40k-GW/132756831637?hash=item1ee8ec7d95:gfIAAOSwtLxbgINn

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-And-The-Damned-Realm-Of-Chaos-Book-/263979127177

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Realm-of-Chaos-the-Lost-and-the-Damned-HB-Warhammer-40kRPG-SOTDL-WFRP-OSR-/202463265789

Never played them, I'm from 2nd edition, just heard of them and read about them.

Go to my links. Particularly the first one.

As asked before, use spoiler tags when quoting massive multi-quotes and only replying with a singly line or word.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.

Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.

Since we're being pedantic, Rogue Trader says absolutely nothing about Sensei, the Star Child or Chaos. That all comes from the RoC books.

Ohh oh- can we get an Amazon link for them too?

It would probably be better if people referred to "the Rogue Trader era" to mean "fluff from before 2nd edition". As you point out, "Rogue Trader" makes it sound like you're referring to that specific publication rather than the entire edition.

The point remains that the perpetuals are just the sensei from the RT era, plus living saints from 2nd edition onwards, sort of cooked up together into a single unified concept. If you hate the perpetuals but liked the sensei, you probably need to take off your nostalgia glasses. They're near as dammit the same thing.

 Duskweaver wrote:
It would probably be better if people referred to "the Rogue Trader era" to mean "fluff from before 2nd edition". As you point out, "Rogue Trader" makes it sound like you're referring to that specific publication rather than the entire edition.

The point remains that the perpetuals are just the sensei from the RT era, plus living saints from 2nd edition onwards, sort of cooked up together into a single unified concept. If you hate the perpetuals but liked the sensei, you probably need to take off your nostalgia glasses. They're near as dammit the same thing.

The difference is the Sensei were a fluff blurb that didn't really impact the setting and was sorta reated as a theory or what if. The perpetuals have been set up as being a big part of the Horus Heresy and are fairly active in the story line. The fact that they are linked to the sillyness that was the Cabal, hijacking an existing character and radically changing his backstory is what puts a lot of bad taste in peoples mouths.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.

Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.

Since we're being pedantic, Rogue Trader says absolutely nothing about Sensei, the Star Child or Chaos. That all comes from the RoC books.

Yes. I'm not talking about Rick Priestley's book Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader book from 1987, I am talking about the lore itself from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. You know, the Edition? I mean 1st Edition Rogue Trader, not the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrookM wrote:
As asked before, use spoiler tags when quoting massive multi-quotes and only replying with a singly line or word.

Its easier to get a response this way, but I'll try.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It would probably be better if people referred to "the Rogue Trader era" to mean "fluff from before 2nd edition". As you point out, "Rogue Trader" makes it sound like you're referring to that specific publication rather than the entire edition.

The point remains that the perpetuals are just the sensei from the RT era, plus living saints from 2nd edition onwards, sort of cooked up together into a single unified concept. If you hate the perpetuals but liked the sensei, you probably need to take off your nostalgia glasses. They're near as dammit the same thing.

The difference is the Sensei were a fluff blurb that didn't really impact the setting and was sorta reated as a theory or what if. The perpetuals have been set up as being a big part of the Horus Heresy and are fairly active in the story line. The fact that they are linked to the sillyness that was the Cabal, hijacking an existing character and radically changing his backstory is what puts a lot of bad taste in peoples mouths.

by :hijacking an existing character" you mean "detailing a character with more then a sentence"

It was better before in my opinion because it was a simple story, but one that really sums up how brave the IG really are. He wasn't anyone special, he hasn't existed since ancient Greece, he didn't have some grand destiny or special powers. He was a normal guy caught in between the God of Order and Chaos's avatar at the height of his power.

Did he run, break down or fail in his duty. No, he did the best he could and got obliterated for his trouble. He held strong, guarding humanity to his last breath. He had no chance, wasn't special and still managed to give the Emperor time to finally kill Horus. The fact that the most humans of humans saved the Emperor is a simple but effective story that connects the Emperor to humanity and showed that in a setting with literal gods, one human can make a difference.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It was better before in my opinion because it was a simple story, but one that really sums up how brave the IG really are. He wasn't anyone special, he hasn't existed since ancient Greece, he didn't have some grand destiny or special powers. He was a normal guy caught in between the God of Order and Chaos's avatar at the height of his power.

Did he run, break down or fail in his duty. No, he did the best he could and got obliterated for his trouble. He held strong, guarding humanity to his last breath. He had no chance, wasn't special and still managed to give the Emperor time to finally kill Horus. The fact that the most humans of humans saved the Emperor is a simple but effective story that connects the Emperor to humanity and showed that in a setting with literal gods, one human can make a difference.

Here here!!!!!

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It was better before in my opinion because it was a simple story, but one that really sums up how brave the IG really are. He wasn't anyone special, he hasn't existed since ancient Greece, he didn't have some grand destiny or special powers. He was a normal guy caught in between the God of Order and Chaos's avatar at the height of his power.

Did he run, break down or fail in his duty. No, he did the best he could and got obliterated for his trouble. He held strong, guarding humanity to his last breath. He had no chance, wasn't special and still managed to give the Emperor time to finally kill Horus. The fact that the most humans of humans saved the Emperor is a simple but effective story that connects the Emperor to humanity and showed that in a setting with literal gods, one human can make a difference.

Exactly! That's why it's important that he remains a regular Guardsman, as that's the whole point behind him being there. The symbolism is completely lost when it turns out he's some super-rare, special Perpetual who's been around for millennia and met the Emperor and been present at all these important events in history.

Absolutely!

I think handling of Ollanius is a great allegory to the direction BL has taken the fluff (and it has now bled to 40K proper too.) Only superhuman matter; to have any agency, any impact, to be a protagonist of a story, you need to be a superhuman, a nigh immortal demigod preferably. In the Imperium of Man, in this story of humanity, the humans do not matter anymore.

I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

 Crimson wrote:
Absolutely!
I think handling of Ollanius is a great allegory to the direction BL has taken the fluff (and it has now bled to 40K proper too.) Only superhuman matter; to have any agency, any impact, to be a protagonist of a story, you need to be a superhuman, a nigh immortal demigod preferably. In the Imperium of Man, in this story of humanity, the humans do not matter anymore.

Isn't that common direction pop-media returned to in past decade or so from 'litle man rules' ? GW just 'follows collective unconscious' - i.e. milks money from it.
And society's obsession with delusion of 'bein' special' and ' 'ceptional' is downright frightening - let's paraphrase: "There's no 'I' in 'We', there's no 'We' in 'I'".
(That's why i dislike 'super' comicses - well, maybe 'cept pretty mental 'Boys' and 'Watchmen' - in general and 'X-men' with their disdain and hatred for common people with extra passion). WH40M at least have IG, AM and aliens - best books are about them.


Back to thread's roots.
Outside of scholars and lineage-obsessed aristos of Terran origins- who in Imperium NEEDS to know pre-Imperial history 'cept few pretty generalized concepts like 'Age of Terra', 'DAoT', 'Long Night' and 'Butlerian Jikhad'..er, 'Cybernetic Revolt'?
Common imperial subjects learn strictly on 'need to know' basis, often with direct knowledge implantation for more complex things. Imperial Cult credoes are 'need to know' for everybody, rest is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

Well, there swatting a fly and there's smugly and matter-of-factly tearing wings and legs off then crushing it.
E was psi-blinded by Chaos and left dead reckoning. He estimate and guess but not ''see' until that moment and up until that moment is not immune to self-delusions and denial 'i can fix it when i have a time'.So that part is at least plausible. 'Last straw'.

BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

\

That to me is the entire point of the story. Yea it's kinda nonsense, a random human managed to buy the Emperor time, after Sanguinius was dead and the Emperor was on his own and in bad shape. Then Horus gets distracted for a split second, and the Emperor final flashes him out of existence. It's probably propaganda and I don't expect the HH series to play it straight. But for your rank and file guardsmen, what better tale than one human made a difference when God was losing to his traitor son.

Maybe Horus hesitated, the last loyal fragment of his soul. Maybe the Emperor didn't need him to and coldly tried to kill him and still ended up bad enough that he needed Dorn to get him back to Terra. Maybe the Big E held back cause he wanted his favorite kid back.

No matter how it went down, one human made a difference, and saved the IOM.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

\

That to me is the entire point of the story. Yea it's kinda nonsense, a random human managed to buy the Emperor time, after Sanguinius was dead and the Emperor was on his own and in bad shape. Then Horus gets distracted for a split second, and the Emperor final flashes him out of existence. It's probably propaganda and I don't expect the HH series to play it straight. But for your rank and file guardsmen, what better tale than one human made a difference when God was losing to his traitor son.

Maybe Horus hesitated, the last loyal fragment of his soul. Maybe the Emperor didn't need him to and coldly tried to kill him and still ended up bad enough that he needed Dorn to get him back to Terra. Maybe the Big E held back cause he wanted his favorite kid back.

No matter how it went down, one human made a difference, and saved the IOM.

sure except in the versions of the story that list it as a custodes, ohh or the versions that list it as an Imperial fist, none of these had the kind of hand wringing that the HH novels seem to.

Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense

Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense

And making him a guy the Emperor has known since the days of Nineveh, one of the very few people the Emperor ever considered a friend, seems like a pretty good way to make it make sense.

The "he was just a random guardsman" version will probably be the official Imperial propaganda version after the fact, because that's the only level on which that version really works.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense

And making him a guy the Emperor has known since the days of Nineveh, one of the very few people the Emperor ever considered a friend, seems like a pretty good way to make it make sense.

The "he was just a random guardsman" version will probably be the official Imperial propaganda version after the fact, because that's the only level on which that version really works.

yeah I have a hunch we're going to discover the connection between Oli and the Emperor is MUCH more complicated..

I'm going to make a prodictiion, Oli is the emperor's son.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense

And making him a guy the Emperor has known since the days of Nineveh, one of the very few people the Emperor ever considered a friend, seems like a pretty good way to make it make sense.

The "he was just a random guardsman" version will probably be the official Imperial propaganda version after the fact, because that's the only level on which that version really works.

yeah I have a hunch we're going to discover the connection between Oli and the Emperor is MUCH more complicated..

I'm going to make a prodictiion, Oli is the emperor's son.

That would suck so bad. They have already ruined the whole point Pius with this perpetual rubbish.

Back on topic again. I think we all agree they know next to nothing about old earth and what they do know is distorted.

BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.

It makes the super humans more humble too and gets rid of of perpetuals and their awfulness.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.

except it's not. all the people complaining seem absolutely upset that the whole legend is, like 90% of what common humanity realizes. a lie or at best a truth with important facts missing or ommited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...

and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"

We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.

It makes the super humans more humble too and gets rid of of perpetuals and their awfulness.

you keep assuming everyone knows about perpetuals. they don't.

Onething123456 wrote:
Perpetual Oll Persson

Ok, I know I'm late to the party on this, but are we going to ignore that some author named a Perpetual "Old Person" and somehow got away with it. C'mon BL, up your game.

It's Oll Person, the same way we describe things now as being Oll Korrect.

He's just a regular Joe Everyman.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Ohh oh- can we get an Amazon link for them too?

I have proven the Emperor was born in Anatolia with my quote for Perpetual Oll Persson talking to him outside of Nineveh in "Mark of Calth". And the Emperor has nothing to gain, as very people know or even care about Old Earth.



But everyone is free to interpret the setting however they want since canon is not in 40k. Have a nice day.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:


We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.

Its not imperial propaganda, and shouldn't be interpreted as such. Rank and file guardsmen aren't even supposed to know about Chaos (with the exception of Cadia because they were supposed to be guarding that whole gate thing. Good job btw). Names like "Horus", the "Luna Wolves", "Mortarian" these are names that have been scrubbed from the annals of Imperial History and you have to have at least a certain rank within the Imperium to even know about the great enemy. Lest we forget that guardsmen who come into contact with Chaos are summarily executed by the Inquisition even if they previal in battle . With Imperial Propaganda being focused on keeping the existence of Chaos a secret from the average citizens and guardsmen of the Imperium, making an argument that a Guardsmen's presence on the Battle Barge during the Horus Heresy is supposed to inspire the average guardsmen is nonsensical.

Whether we like it or not, that is information only available to us, the reader to tell a narrative. Indeed, in universe, the information of who was aboard the Vengeful Spirit when the Emperor finally faced down Horus would be the most classified of classified information.

Guardsmen not knowing about chaos is something GW has been all over the place over the years. While I agree the IOM does it's best to hide the nature of chaos from most people, it's pretty clear that by the time they are down training, they know what a chaos space marine is, even if they don't fully understand what exactly the traitors really fight for. I've never read a story were guard were attack by a chaos space marine and they didn't know what it was.

Also, I recall several stories were Horus's name was used as a curse. While a good chunk of what happened was scrubbed or lost to time, I'd imagine that a good chunk of the IOM know the basics. IG even had a relic named The Deathmask of Ollanius. Some version of the story must be common enough for that to be a thing.