What the Imperium knows about Old Earth

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**BrianDavion**

Onething123456 wrote:
foostick wrote:
Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.

The Emperor was quite clearly evil as far as the Eldar, Tau, Orks would perceive him and doubtless large swathes of humanity would have thought the same as their planet burnt around him by his command.

Surely that's one of the best parts of 40k anyway, you're literally in a "best of a bad bunch" situation rather than good guys v bad guys.

Yes, ADB's friend was a fan of it. But ADB said in his talk with me on Reddit that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Thanks for the links Onething, quite funny watching someone tell an author they're wrong about something they had a hand in writing, while randomly quoting semi-related fluff to them. It does illustrate a bit of a problem with your reading of the background though. If you're trying to argue the Emperor isn't a hypocrite over the Mechanicus it kind of shows you may not have really understood a lot of the stuff going on in the HH background. That level of hypocrisy is one of the little lies that allows Chaos to gain a foothold in the Traitor Legions. If the Emperor is willing to lie on such a grand scale to further his goals, what else will he lie about?

As for the Emperor not being a war criminal by modern standards, how can you possibly claim he isn't if you've been paying any sort of attention? He had the Thunder Warriors wiped out after they had outlived their usefulness and has absolutely no problem slaughtering entire systems of humans if they refuse to accept the Imperial Truth. That's genocide on a scale literally impossible to accomplish in today's world. It makes him the most prolific butcher of his own kind in history. You can try to justify it by saying he was trying to accomplish something greater and save humanity in the end but very few, if any, truly evil people believe themselves to be evil. All will find justification for what they do.

The Emperor is not a hypocrite for dealing with the Mechanicus in the sense he secretly had a god complex or approved of religion.

No one is SAYING he had a god complex. as ADB said, he didn't... THATS THE HIPOCRACY.

**Onething123456**

BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
foostick wrote:
Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.

The Emperor was quite clearly evil as far as the Eldar, Tau, Orks would perceive him and doubtless large swathes of humanity would have thought the same as their planet burnt around him by his command.

Surely that's one of the best parts of 40k anyway, you're literally in a "best of a bad bunch" situation rather than good guys v bad guys.

Yes, ADB's friend was a fan of it. But ADB said in his talk with me on Reddit that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Thanks for the links Onething, quite funny watching someone tell an author they're wrong about something they had a hand in writing, while randomly quoting semi-related fluff to them. It does illustrate a bit of a problem with your reading of the background though. If you're trying to argue the Emperor isn't a hypocrite over the Mechanicus it kind of shows you may not have really understood a lot of the stuff going on in the HH background. That level of hypocrisy is one of the little lies that allows Chaos to gain a foothold in the Traitor Legions. If the Emperor is willing to lie on such a grand scale to further his goals, what else will he lie about?

As for the Emperor not being a war criminal by modern standards, how can you possibly claim he isn't if you've been paying any sort of attention? He had the Thunder Warriors wiped out after they had outlived their usefulness and has absolutely no problem slaughtering entire systems of humans if they refuse to accept the Imperial Truth. That's genocide on a scale literally impossible to accomplish in today's world. It makes him the most prolific butcher of his own kind in history. You can try to justify it by saying he was trying to accomplish something greater and save humanity in the end but very few, if any, truly evil people believe themselves to be evil. All will find justification for what they do.

The Emperor is not a hypocrite for dealing with the Mechanicus in the sense he secretly had a god complex or approved of religion.

No one is SAYING he had a god complex. as ADB said, he didn't... THATS THE HIPOCRACY.

I know.

**Grimtuff**

You also know not to quote an entire post for a two word reply...

**Onething123456**

Its easier to get a response that way.

**foostick**

You've also been told by the Mods not to do it.

Anyway - whilst ADB may have said we can say the Emps isn't DAOT, it doesn't mean another writer can't go down that route. It's something it'd be cool to explore in the setting if it hasn't been already. Although I suppose arguably you could say he's now an extension of the Golden Throne so maybe he is...

**Onething123456**

foostick wrote:
You've also been told by the Mods not to do it.

Anyway - whilst ADB may have said we can say the Emps isn't DAOT, it doesn't mean another writer can't go down that route. It's something it'd be cool to explore in the setting if it hasn't been already. Although I suppose arguably you could say he's now an extension of the Golden Throne so maybe he is...

There is no canon in 40k. So everyone is free to interpret the setting however they want. But if you go by lore, the Emperor was around on Old Earth. The Perpetuals show that.

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There is no canon in 40k. So everyone is free to interpret the setting however they want. But if you go by lore, the Emperor was around on Old Earth. The Perpetuals show that.

**Andykp**

I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

**Onething123456**

Andykp wrote:
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.

**Andykp**

Also....

A hypothetical theory. No quotes for it but it will covers your perpetual stuff.

Emperor was alive shaman origin style. Met the dreadful and “badly written perpetuals”

But...in the DAOT he was killed and turned into a piece of tech that adopted all of his powers and memories. Maybe that is why chaos had a hard time with him because he was a machine without a soul?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.

I never said it did. He’s just a turd.

**HoundsofDemos**

Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.

You don't seem to understand what hypocrisy is. Literal definition (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform

. He claims that all religions are false, there is one truth and there are no gods. Anyone who thinks differently must be brought into compliance one way or another. I am definitely not a god.

But what about those martians over who worship a god and think of you as an aspect of it ? Those guys are totally fine as long as I get my shipment of bolters on time.

The Emperor did not practice what he preached because he needed the Forgeworlds and didn't have time to force them to change, particularly Mars, which if he had gone to war with most likely would have ended with a Pyrrhic victory at best.

He believed in the Imperial Truth only because he incorrectly thought he could starve the Chaos Gods out if no one knew about them or actively worshiped them.

**Onething123456**

I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.

**HoundsofDemos**

That there are no such thing as gods? We don't know for sure what he believes for sure, in regards to whether he himself is a god or if he considers the chaos gods well gods. Again we could squabble over what a god in this setting is, but if they do exist the 4 big aspects of Chaos would probably be at the top of the list.

He pushed the Imperial Truth though for one specific reason, namely his incorrect belief that the Chaos Gods were fed by religion and needed active worship to stay powerful. The first one may be true depending on the religion, the second is false.

**BrianDavion**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.

You don't seem to understand what hypocrisy is. Literal definition (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. He claims that all religions are false, there is one truth and there are no gods. Anyone who thinks differently must be brought into compliance one way or another. I am definitely not a god.

But what about those martians over who worship a god and think of you as an aspect of it ? Those guys are totally fine as long as I get my shipment of bolters on time.

The Emperor did not practice what he preached because he needed the Forgeworlds and didn't have time to force them to change, particularly Mars, which if he had gone to war with most likely would have ended with a Pyrrhic victory at best.

He believed in the Imperial Truth only because he incorrectly thought he could starve the Chaos Gods out if no one knew about them or actively worshiped them.

not only that but if the novel Mechanium is to belived, the emperor DELIBERATELY ENGINEERED Mars to develop into a society that would worship him. there's no ifs ands or buts here, the emperor meddled with Martian society and ensured that the prophecies of the Omnissah would develop, and that they would "herald his coming" Not only did the Emperor tolerate being worshipped as an aspect of the Martian god.. He engineered it

**Onething123456**

BrianDavion wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.

You don't seem to understand what hypocrisy is. Literal definition (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. He claims that all religions are false, there is one truth and there are no gods. Anyone who thinks differently must be brought into compliance one way or another. I am definitely not a god.

But what about those martians over who worship a god and think of you as an aspect of it ? Those guys are totally fine as long as I get my shipment of bolters on time.

The Emperor did not practice what he preached because he needed the Forgeworlds and didn't have time to force them to change, particularly Mars, which if he had gone to war with most likely would have ended with a Pyrrhic victory at best.

He believed in the Imperial Truth only because he incorrectly thought he could starve the Chaos Gods out if no one knew about them or actively worshiped them.

not only that but if the novel Mechanium is to belived, the emperor DELIBERATELY ENGINEERED Mars to develop into a society that would worship him. there's no ifs ands or buts here, the emperor meddled with Martian society and ensured that the prophecies of the Omnissah would develop, and that they would "herald his coming" Not only did the Emperor tolerate being worshipped as an aspect of the Martian god.. He engineered it

Because he could not destroy the Void Dragon. This is explained. He does not have a god complex.

**BrianDavion**

no one is saying he has a god complex, seriously dude, stop trying to argue someone that no one is saying.It's a straw man arguement at best. what are are saying is the emperor is a hipocrite. not being able to destroy the void dragon is, frankly irrelevant, there where PLENTY of ways he could have handled it (including shackling it in an astroid thats floating in deep space between star systems) instead he choose to bury it on Mars specificly so it could groom the world to be his weapons foundry.
the height of hipocracy.

**Voss**

Onething123456 wrote:
I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.

There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:

He's the most incompetent idiot ever.

He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.

**Onething123456**

Voss wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.

There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:

He's the most incompetent idiot ever.

He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.

We don't know how the Emperor views his children. ADB said in interviews not to take it seriously, as different people hear different things when "speaking" to the Emperor.

Goodbye.

**Slipspace**

Onething123456 wrote:
I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.

That's not what anyone said, nor did anyone claim he had a god complex. The hypocrisy is entirely down to his promoting a secular society and being actively hostile towards religion while simultaneously not just allowing, but exploiting, the religious beliefs of the Mechanicum because it suits his goals. That's textbook hypocrisy. That's all people are saying. The other points you're arguing against are strawmen you've pulled out of thin air.

**BrianDavion**

That said, I'll argue he had a god complex. The Emperor routinly futzed about with creating entirely new life, (genetic engineering on the level of creating the primarchs is something that MANY people would claim is "playing god") altered and manipulated the course of human events for god knows how long as part of a master plan, etc. The Emperor may not have been a god, may have denied it, but you can't deny he is guilty of "playing god"

**Slipspace**

BrianDavion wrote:
That said, I'll argue he had a god complex. The Emperor routinly futzed about with creating entirely new life, (genetic engineering on the level of creating the primarchs is something that MANY people would claim is "playing god") altered and manipulated the course of human events for god knows how long as part of a master plan, etc. The Emperor may not have been a god, may have denied it, but you can't deny he is guilty of "playing god"

That's a fair point. He doesn't seem to have a god complex, in the sense that he genuinely didn't seem to want others to view him as a god. At the same time, his actions do show him certainly playing god in the ways you describe. It's those actions that lead to problems with Lorgar later on as he, quite logically, points out all the god-like things the Emperor has done. The Emperor probably doesn't see it as playing god, though. Probably more like doing what is necessary to safeguard humanity. To him it probably seems logical to create the Primarchs and since he has the means to do it I don't think he would view it as a god-like act. That just further reinforces his disconnection from humanity.

**Carlovonsexron**

I agree with the previous two views- it seems pretty clear the Emperor does have a “God-Complex”, particularly in relation to him feeling that he knows whays best for the course of huma evolution, and seemingly engineering everything in order to make hilanity able to manifest ad a psychic race.

Who decides they know whats best for an entire species outside of someone with a god conplex?

**Voss**

Onething123456 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.

There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:

He's the most incompetent idiot ever.

He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.

We don't know how the Emperor views his children. ADB said in interviews not to take it seriously, as different people hear different things when "speaking" to the Emperor.

This circles back to most incompetent idiot ever, if he can't manage basic communication with his most capable subordinates.

Especially if he doesn't realize they are getting different messages, and completely different layers of meaning. That's exactly how you get Lorgar and Magnus. 'I heard him say he -wants- chaos magic/an imperial cult.'

Thouh more realistically, it sounds like ADB is just handwaving bad writing with a clumsy attempt at 'don't worry about it so much.'

**Crimson**

There is kinda a narrative problem with first building Emperor as this tens of thousands of years old super master mind and the most powerful being in the setting and still have him to fail and frankly, fail in quite a predictable manner too. The whole thing just makes way more sense if we just forget the ancient origins and interpret some of his most amazing psychic feats as exaggerated legends. He was just a really successful warlord from the Age of Strife and a powerful psyker, but nothing as extraordinary than commonly believed (and what he wanted people to believe!)

**Onething123456**

Crimson wrote:
There is kinda a narrative problem with first building Emperor as this tens of thousands of years old super master mind and the most powerful being in the setting and still have him to fail and frankly, fail in quite a predictable manner too. The whole thing just makes way more sense if we just forget the ancient origins and interpret some of his most amazing psychic feats as exaggerated legends. He was just a really successful warlord from the Age of Strife and a powerful psyker, but nothing as extraordinary than commonly believed (and what he wanted people to believe!)

That is hardly the case. He can grant powers and immortality to people as he did with the Guardians of the Void Dragon, has a Godlike glamour, and so on.

The below quote is from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum.

Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.

And you cannot ignore the Perpetuals just because you hate them. And should we say the Eldar aren't 65 million years old? They used to play with stars as their "mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched stars."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.

There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:

He's the most incompetent idiot ever.

He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.

We don't know how the Emperor views his children. ADB said in interviews not to take it seriously, as different people hear different things when "speaking" to the Emperor.

This circles back to most incompetent idiot ever, if he can't manage basic communication with his most capable subordinates.

Especially if he doesn't realize they are getting different messages, and completely different layers of meaning. That's exactly how you get Lorgar and Magnus. 'I heard him say he -wants- chaos magic/an imperial cult.'

Thouh more realistically, it sounds like ADB is just handwaving bad writing with a clumsy attempt at 'don't worry about it so much.'

A much more simple answer would be is that the Emperor has lost touch with humanity and struggles to emphasize with mortals.

And this below quote would imply he did know about the Heresy.

‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’

‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.

The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.

As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?

And I have still seen more or less nothing proving he "murdered" billions. I got only one link from the Forgeworld books that was in anyway in the least proof for that. He conquered planets. Yes. What the hell do you expect? Its conquest. But conquest is not inherently evil. Alexander the Great did it, the Romans did it, The Persians did it (the Persians under Xerxes were closer to a modern society with equal rights than probably any other empire), and so on.

I would feel better if we just let it go. But I am saying as I have read many Horus Heresy books, and think what are you saying is bs.

**Andykp**

We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.

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Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.

Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.

**Onething123456**

Andykp wrote:
We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.

Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.

He does not just free people. I did not say that. He is a conqueror. He freed a lot of people, he also conquered those that refused to join. Xerxes (who was closer to a modern politician with equal rights beliefs than any empire leader) freed, but also conquered.

**Andykp**

Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.

Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.

He does not just free people. I did not say that. He is a conqueror. He freed a lot of people, he also conquered those that refused to join. Xerxes (who was closer to a modern politician with equal rights beliefs than any empire leader) freed, but also conquered.

This doesn’t change the fact that in conquering the emperor killed millions of and billions of people in the crusade. He had systems put to death, he had entire races of aliens destroyed and not to mention mutants and psykers he did away with. The crusade was a galactic genocide. The emperor is not some liberal going round being nice. It’s his way or death. He is a classic despot.

**Onething123456**

Andykp wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.

Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.

He does not just free people. I did not say that. He is a conqueror. He freed a lot of people, he also conquered those that refused to join. Xerxes (who was closer to a modern politician with equal rights beliefs than any empire leader) freed, but also conquered.

This doesn’t change the fact that in conquering the emperor killed millions of and billions of people in the crusade. He had systems put to death, he had entire races of aliens destroyed and not to mention mutants and psykers he did away with. The crusade was a galactic genocide. The emperor is not some liberal going round being nice. It’s his way or death. He is a classic despot.

It makes more sense for the Emperor to conquer planets that refuse to join instead of destroying them, and that is what he mostly did. And the Laer on page 28 in the Fulgrim book show the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquer them, not wipe them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's, not because they were aliens.

Almost all aliens during the Crusade were hostile.

No, he is not. And I still have not seen real proof for any of what you said, except maybe that one link from the Forgeworld books.

But I think it would be better if we skipped this topic.

**Andykp**

How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.

**locarno24**

A much more simple answer would be is that the Emperor has lost touch with humanity and struggles to emphasize with mortals.

I always saw it that the pre-heresy Emperor shows pretty much all his 'sons' flaws, to a greater or lesser extent:

~ Lorgar's absolute conviction in his own self-righteousness
~ The Lion and Russ' slightly smug hypocracy that no-one else can be trusted with the whole truth and/or his best toys
~ Magnus' certitude that nothing can possibly go wrong
~ Gulliman's slightly naive faith in humanity as a whole species
~ Perturabo's disdain for (and willingness to treat as expendable) specific member of said species

...and so on.