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'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
What I seem to be missing is that the great crusade did not need to happen. Many people were just fine without it. They could have tried to co exist with aliens and allow other cultures. The whole venture was totalitarian despotism and mass mass murder.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
I have. But try to use your empathy a bit. What was the “fake” emperor doing that meant he needed killing along with all the others that he talks about there.
This is important here. Killing people because they disagree with you is wrong. Killing millions of people because of it is really really wrong. I don’t know how to say it any simpler than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any action carried out under the great crusade is the emperors fault. That is how being a despot works. No one else to blame but you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 00:06:01
2018/10/24 00:09:25
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
I have. But try to use your empathy a bit. What was the “fake” emperor doing that meant he needed killing along with all the others that he talks about there.
This is important here. Killing people because they disagree with you is wrong. Killing millions of people because of it is really really wrong. I don’t know how to say it any simpler than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any action carried out under the great crusade is the emperors fault. That is how being a despot works. No one else to blame but you.
No civilians were slaughtered at 63-19. But Horus admitted it was an error on his part.
0 civilians? In the bombardments and spaceships falling from the sky and the big siege in the mountains. Balls.
Also if you invade another country and kill its soldiers that’s still not ok. They are still people. They didn’t deserve to die because you disagreed with them.
Andykp wrote: 0 civilians? In the bombardments and spaceships falling from the sky and the big siege in the mountains. Balls.
Also if you invade another country and kill its soldiers that’s still not ok. They are still people. They didn’t deserve to die because you disagreed with them.
That's war. The U.S went to Iraq and slaughtered Iraqi soldiers. Is it right to kill people? No, but its war to kill enemy soldiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 00:19:35
Andykp wrote: 0 civilians? In the bombardments and spaceships falling from the sky and the big siege in the mountains. Balls.
Also if you invade another country and kill its soldiers that’s still not ok. They are still people. They didn’t deserve to die because you disagreed with them.
That's war. The U.S went to Iraq and slaughtered Iraqi soldiers. Is it right to kill people? No, but its war to kill enemy soldiers.
And that war was illegal too. Deciding on your enemies is the point here. Do you think the Iraqi soldiers family think the US was right in killing their children?
2018/10/24 00:36:52
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
2018/10/24 00:42:35
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
Almost half of those examples were out of context or not done directly by the Imperium.
Can we stop this subject soon? Preferably right now?
2018/10/24 00:50:40
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
Almost half of those examples were out of context or not done directly by the Imperium.
Can we stop this subject soon? Preferably right now?
I'll be honest, I'd prefer we see it through rather than you running away again and starting another tangential thread about what we discussed here. Don't dish out what you can't receive, there's nothing wrong with admitting that you might have been overzealous in your opinion of the Imperium/Emperor.
2018/10/24 01:06:23
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
Almost half of those examples were out of context or not done directly by the Imperium.
Can we stop this subject soon? Preferably right now?
I'll be honest, I'd prefer we see it through rather than you running away again and starting another tangential thread about what we discussed here. Don't dish out what you can't receive, there's nothing wrong with admitting that you might have been overzealous in your opinion of the Imperium/Emperor.
I was not saying the Emperor or the Imperium were perfect. (I know the Imperium in 40k sucks) I was saying I think a lot of what I heard is exaggerated after reading close to half of the Horus Heresy books (about 20) myself. And most of those quotes I saw were from Forgeworld. But I get the point.
Oh, I'm not going to start another thread about this. There is barely anything else I can think of related to this.
2018/10/24 04:45:52
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/24 04:48:41
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
BrianDavion wrote: Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
He could very well be wrong. Or maybe he is biased? Horus was raised by the Emperor when he was just a child. So its obvious he will think highly of the Emperor as a good guy.
2018/10/24 04:50:54
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
BrianDavion wrote: Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
He could very well be wrong. Or maybe he is biased? Horus was raised by the Emperor when he was just a child. So its obvious he will think highly of the Emperor as a good guy.
sure, people tend to have a unrealisticly high opinion of their fathers often. I suspect Horus had that of the Emperor, it actually explains his fall a little more.. When someone has a.. overly high opinion of a parental figure having that view shattered can produce a suprising amount of hostility
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/24 04:56:48
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
BrianDavion wrote: Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
He could very well be wrong. Or maybe he is biased? Horus was raised by the Emperor when he was just a child. So its obvious he will think highly of the Emperor as a good guy.
sure, people tend to have a unrealisticly high opinion of their fathers often. I suspect Horus had that of the Emperor, it actually explains his fall a little more.. When someone has a.. overly high opinion of a parental figure having that view shattered can produce a suprising amount of hostility
And even if the Emperor would have accepted the Interex and its alien allies into the Imperium, he would have destroyed them for knowing about Chaos. The Laer do indicate that the Imperium was not completely against aliens, but lets say the Emperor would be alright with the Laer as a protectorate. He still would have had the Laer destroyed for being Chaos followers if nothing else.
2018/10/24 08:23:53
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
In Bill King's version (definitive from 1990 until whenever Horus Heresy Collected Visions was published), it was an Imperial Fists terminator, and that story was told from the Emperor's point of view.
Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.
The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.
Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.
The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.
2018/10/24 10:50:18
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
I am, hearing a lot of talk, but absolutely no proof in the least for what you say. Post proof, or I call you out. The quote below shows the Great Crusade had moral boundaries.
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
Posting masses of quotes over and over again does not an argument make. You seem to think just adding quotes from novels to the discussion is somehow proving your point. Either you haven't read the quote above, or you don't understand it. It shows the opposite of your point. The fact you don't seem to see that probably explains the rest of your opinions. Can you explain why the quote above proves your point that the Crusade had moral boundaries, referencing only the content of the quote?
2018/10/24 11:22:42
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
In Bill King's version (definitive from 1990 until whenever Horus Heresy Collected Visions was published), it was an Imperial Fists terminator, and that story was told from the Emperor's point of view.
Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.
The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.
Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.
The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.
Yep, I always liked the idea that it was one of those legends that have different versions based on who is telling it. The Guard have their own version they tell to give them courage, and the Marines have their own version, as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the AdMech have their own version.
I look forward to when we get to that point in the books and get the definitive version, and I hope it somehow ends up being something nobody expects.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
Do you know where I can read that book?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: In Dark Imperium Guilliman tries to build a library about the knowledge of the last 10000 years and realizes that a lot has been lost due to imperial dogma.
And that's "just" from 30K to 40K. They barely seem to know about the Beast.
Information about earth in 2K would be very unlikely. Today we only have recovered 2% of the written texts of antiquity, and we are only 2000 years away. And even though real world's christianity did a good job of purging (or simply not copying) everything they didn't like they weren't as bad as 40Ks ecclesiarchy.
Do you know the page number?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/30 03:12:46
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
And I know that Perpetual Oll Persson is hated by a lot, but I love him. But I like Damon Prytanis better since he is more realistic in his personality after seeing all the nonsense humanity has done to itself over thousands of years.
2018/10/30 17:08:39
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
Tannhauser42 wrote: I look forward to when we get to that point in the books and get the definitive version, and I hope it somehow ends up being something nobody expects.
My money is on Oll being the one who mortally wounds the Emperor and dooms him to eternity in the Golden Throne. After the Emperor obliterates Horus without a second's hesitation, thus proving (in Oll's eyes) that the Emperor was the setting's 'real' Big Bad all along. I think that's what the conversation outside Nineveh is setting up.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
2018/10/30 17:27:34
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
Tannhauser42 wrote: I look forward to when we get to that point in the books and get the definitive version, and I hope it somehow ends up being something nobody expects.
My money is on Oll being the one who mortally wounds the Emperor and dooms him to eternity in the Golden Throne. After the Emperor obliterates Horus without a second's hesitation, thus proving (in Oll's eyes) that the Emperor was the setting's 'real' Big Bad all along. I think that's what the conversation outside Nineveh is setting up.
Its definitely going to be similar to the first story of Horus being the bad guy.
Of course Horus is bad. I'm speculating that Oll ends up thinking the Emperor is even worse. The idea is that the character whose name is basically 'Mr Eternal Everyman' is in a sense the readers' avatar/stand-in, and most BL novel readers seem to have concluded that the Emperor is a monster. Either this is colossally bad writing, or it is intentional.
I'm horribly off topic, though, I admit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/30 17:40:31
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
2018/10/30 17:40:56
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
I actually like that theory. It's pretty clear that the original story doesn't fit how the emperor has been characterized thus far, necessitating change.
Duskweaver wrote: Of course Horus is bad. I'm speculating that Oll ends up thinking the Emperor is even worse. The idea is that the character whose name is basically 'Mr Eternal Everyman' is in a sense the readers' avatar/stand-in, and most BL novel readers seem to have concluded that the Emperor is a monster. Either this is colossally bad writing, or it is intentional.
I'm horribly off topic, though, I admit.
The Emperor is a "good guy" for humanity, even though he is not that much different from Alexander, Caeser and so on.
Probably bad writing? I would not have fallen for Erebus' trickery to Horus even when I was thirteen. Horus' fall was badly written.
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