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I've been working on generating some lists for an Iron Warriors army I plan on starting in the new year. My goal is to keep it relatively fluffy, while still being competitive enough as to not have units entirely useless. I am also trying to run it as more of a vehicle focused elite list. Currently I'm about 80% locked on my units, but am struggling to round out the last bit of AA. The obvious choice would be to take a unit of havocs or obliterators - as both are favorites of the Iron Warriors - but neither unit fits the vehicle/mechanized theme and I'm not a huge fan or obliterator tactics anyways as they seem to do a great job of getting stranded out in the open once deployed. My main source of heavy firepower at the moment comes from 3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts. 2 of them are double C-Beam and the third is double Butcher Cannon. The idea is that the C-Beam Contemptors provide long-range fire support that is effective as both an anti-armor and anti-horde weapon. The Butcher Cannon model will slam down in a dreadclaw mid-game to counter elite infantry units. I also plan on adding one of the Forge World fliers for some Dakka from above.

The glaring weaknesses for me are mid to close range firepower, a dedicated AA unit, and another durable model or two to take some of the pressure off of my dreadnoughts. Not wanting to add any more Forge World models to this list (it's already pretty heavy in that department, although GW makes their own Contemptor models now), my options become somewhat limited. Basically I'm left deciding between Vindicators, Predators, or Helbrutes. As a current tyranid player, I don't have too much experience with tanks or tank-like units, but the Helbrutes just seem superior in every way. Tactically they are more flexible, they don't have degrading stats, point for point they seem to match or outpace the damage output of tanks, their stratagem doesn't require a huge points investment to unlock, and they have a 1/6 chance to earn extra attacks via the Crazed rule. Unless I'm missing something, the only edge tanks have is being slightly more durable. It's sort of a shame because I would love to have a bit more model variety from an aesthetics standpoint.

Any suggestions as to how I should approach this? Is there a niche tanks fill that I am overlooking? Can tanks be viable enough even if they aren't the superior option? Is T8 on a Vindicator worth 1/2 the range of a Predator?

Deredeo Dreadnought.

Close in firepower, pretty tough, and had an antiaircraft mode.


Regular Helbrutes are a bit meh for me, but if they work for you go for it



Predators are decent. Taking three and using Killshot stratagem is effective.

Vindicators are pretty uninspiring this edition,

Helbrutes:
+No degrading
+Benefit from Legion Traits
+Can have close-combat ability
+Basic Helbrute benefits from the double-shoot stratagem
+Occasionally gets to fight or shoot extra times when wounded
+Small, easy to hide
+Pretty versatile weapon loadout

Tanks:
+Faster
+More wounds.
+More firepower in general
+If fielding three, have access to the crazy strong stratagems
+Vindicator is cheap and Tough 8, but doesn't put out much firepower.
+Smoke launchers
+You don't need to decide between close combat and shooting
+Loads of options if you consider Hellforged variants from the Forgeworld indices.

I really like the Vindicator, but it does suck, despite being very very cheap. The Chaos Helbrute suffers a bit from not being able to go double-shooty like an Imperium one --- but has some really quality close combat options.

When equipped with some stout weapons they're very close in cost, but definitely perform slightly different roles. Have you consider the Leviathan?

I would also second the Leviathan. I will also mention the contemptor dreadnought still benefits from legion traits and can go double shooty.

That being said, I love helbrutes (especially double fist)unless I need a lot of firepower then I love tanks.

I like my helbrutes but I'm a DG player and they ignore the movement penalty.
With Iron Warriors I can imagine the Legion trait being quite good since the FAQ due to a possibly increased amount of cover safes.

 chimeara wrote:
I would also second the Leviathan. I will also mention the contemptor dreadnought still benefits from legion traits and can go double shooty.

That being said, I love helbrutes (especially double fist)unless I need a lot of firepower then I love tanks.

The Contemptor cannot go double-shooty. The Stratagem lists the "Helbrute" unit, and NOT the <HELBRUTE> keyword. It is explicitly limited to the Codex Helbrute entry, unfortunately. (Trust me...I'd love to double-shoot a Leviathan! )

Could be referring to a 2 gun loadout, as well.

Yep, but the OP already stated he has Contemptors fielding double C-beams, etc. I thought he was referring to my bullet point about 'Double-shoot'.

 Elbows wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I would also second the Leviathan. I will also mention the contemptor dreadnought still benefits from legion traits and can go double shooty.

That being said, I love helbrutes (especially double fist)unless I need a lot of firepower then I love tanks.

The Contemptor cannot go double-shooty. The Stratagem lists the "Helbrute" unit, and NOT the <HELBRUTE> keyword. It is explicitly limited to the Codex Helbrute entry, unfortunately. (Trust me...I'd love to double-shoot a Leviathan! )

You are correct. However I was referring to being able to have two of the same gun. Unlike the helbrute. I could understand the confusion, I worded it wierd.

Yep, gotcha. Now we're on the same page. I agree, the Forgeworld options are obviously much more shooty than the standard Helbrute entry. The only reason I give my Leviathan's close combat weapons is because I run "Renegade" Legion Trait and no one expects the running charging Leviathan.

Charging Leviathan sounds painful. I have a double chainclaw Contemptor Dreadnought. It's so strong, S14, 6 attacks on charge, 4 flat damage and -4 AP.

I have definitely given thought to both the Leviathan and Deredeo, but I feel like I've hit the limit of Forge World units I can include without being "that guy". Their inclusion would also require me to shed some points elsewhere in my list. Do able, but not ideal.

Really I see this unit as functioning more as a support piece than a lynch pin. I'm fully expecting the 3 Contemptors to do the heavy lifting along with what will most likely be a Hell Talon or a Xiphon Interceptor.

For the points, Xiphon is the better choice. Fwiw most of my good shooting is FW or knights. There's just better options imo for good shooting via FW. My lgs doesn't mind one bit. However ymmv.

The double shoot helbrute strat is really good. It's actually crazy how often the closest visible unit is exactly the sort of thing you want to fire 4lascannons at. Rhino rush, Corvus, Valkyries etc.
Stood next to Abaddon my helbrute will generally at least make his points back in the first round...

 chimeara wrote:
For the points, Xiphon is the better choice. Fwiw most of my good shooting is FW or knights. There's just better options imo for good shooting via FW. My lgs doesn't mind one bit. However ymmv.

What do you like about the Xiphon over the Hell Talon?

It seems like they serve different roles which makes it a bit hard to pick between them. The Xiphon seems optimized for flying targets while the Hell Talon seems better suited to hitting ground targets via its mortal wounds bombing run. With those roles in mind, it looks like over the course of a game they have the potential to put out roughly the same amount of damage. I'm also liking that 5++ on the Hell Talon and the two additional wounds. Coupled with hard-to-hit I'd imaging that is a frustrating unit to try to shoot out of the sky.

Abaddon303 wrote:
The double shoot helbrute strat is really good. It's actually crazy how often the closest visible unit is exactly the sort of thing you want to fire 4lascannons at. Rhino rush, Corvus, Valkyries etc.
Stood next to Abaddon my helbrute will generally at least make his points back in the first round...

4 Lascannons and 2 missiles if you go full ranged load out! If you play Emperor's Children you can slap 2 Blast Masters on your Helbrute as well (thanks to the Forge World FAQ). Since it just adds weapon options to Helbrute's with <Slaanesh> and <Emperor's Children> they can still take advantage of the fire frenzy stratagem. The double Blast Master is a really good combination as its various firing modes are very flexible!

The Helforged Scorpius is probably the best FW tank though. Its a really good gun, doesn't need LoS and can double tap if you don't move. So bubble wrap it with cultists and eliminate an infantry or heavy infantry squad a turn with impunity.

The Xiphon has tons of firepower having 4 Lascannons plus the S7 missiles every turn. The Talon bombing run is only once per game and it's other guns don't make up for only being able to bomb once imo. For me that's pretty much the deal seal. Both get HTH and machine spirit. I've only played my Xiphon once but it doubled it's points in that game. Taking out so many vehicles. 2 of which were Onagers.

I second the Scorpius being good. Whenever I field it, it's the priority target for my opponents because they know it's gonna bomb them into Oblivion.

 chimeara wrote:
The Xiphon has tons of firepower having 4 Lascannons plus the S7 missiles every turn. The Talon bombing run is only once per game and it's other guns don't make up for only being able to bomb once imo. For me that's pretty much the deal seal. Both get HTH and machine spirit. I've only played my Xiphon once but it doubled it's points in that game. Taking out so many vehicles. 2 of which were Onagers.

I second the Scorpius being good. Whenever I field it, it's the priority target for my opponents because they know it's gonna bomb them into Oblivion.

Oh wow, I missed the fact that it's 2x twin lascannon and not just a single twin lascannon. That does change my perspective quite a bit. Damn too bad, the Hell Talon is a way cooler looking model.

I don't use helbrutes much currently, because I hate the model. I plan to use the non-osiron TS contemptors in the future.

In any case for me a Helbrute w/ ML and TL HB comes in at a mere 114 points. Inferno Bolts to make the TL HB AP2 and then with double tap I get 16 S5 AP2 and 2D6 S4 shots at infantry.

I'd love to see melee helbrutes get a bit cheaper and put the pressure on with the new cover stratagem.