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Carlovonsexron wrote: Actually, that onr way part seems way more important if you wanted to bring someone with you to stand guard and make sure they can't leave...
Then why would he need a ship to get there in the first place...
because, as Carlo notes, it's possiable he didn't arrive on ship because he needed to, it's possiable he brought someone or something WITH HIM, and left it there, we already know that the emperor was capable of traveling across space before he ever set foot on Molech. because he had, apparently stored the dragon on Mars after defeating it in ~300 AD. it's possiable he was limited and could not acheive intersteller travel sure but we should consider other possiabilities
Yeah but he'd have the power to take them with him without a ship, as if he can travel the galaxy all the way to Molech, but taking a single person or 7, now that's too much... You even said he 'transported the void dragon' humans must be too heavy, plus we don't know the exact story of he got the void dragon to mars, we don't know how he got it there and he didn't need to leave a ship there, Alivia was a willing servant, she did her duty for millennia and even when the world got ships, she still stayed there and killed hundreds of people that came close to the obsidian gate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: The Emperor was very conservative with his powers. We saw a few flashes of power, making a legion kneel, summoning a star to hold the webway gate, what ever he had to do to beat up the void dragon. But he seems to prefer to not use them unless he really had to. His most common use of his powers is his various glamours which power wise is pretty low key. To me that fits his vision of wanting to get humanity away from having rely on the warp.
He more than anyone knew that it only took one bad dice roll to perils and the the bigger the pull out of the warp, more risk. Could he have transported himself and others across the galaxy, probably. Was that worth the risk when he and a bunch of other ageless beings get there the slow way while he's planning to steal from the chaos gods. If anything, the slow way doesn't sound like a bad plan.
Yeah those powers were all after Molech. Seems to prefer not to use them unless he really has to, utter conjecture. He's used his power for more than 30,000 years, he obviously strong enough not to take a perils and perils of the warp is very rare for trained psykers, only in the game is so common. He constantly used his power during the crusade, and I mean literally constantly, powering and directing the astronomican, which takes the power of 10,000 psykers a day.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/10/15 01:58:31
Ginjitzu wrote: For the sake of comparison, what are some of the more amazing feats that the Emperor was capable of before he visited Molech?
The void dragon for one, being able to inspire men and women as leaders from hiding, he killed his uncle with a psychic blast, he was able to learn about other worlds in the galaxy. That's about it, well all I can remember anyhow, not much is known about the Emps pre-Unification.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/10/15 04:53:53
Ginjitzu wrote: For the sake of comparison, what are some of the more amazing feats that the Emperor was capable of before he visited Molech?
The void dragon for one, being able to inspire men and women as leaders from hiding, he killed his uncle with a psychic blast, he was able to learn about other worlds in the galaxy. That's about it, well all I can remember anyhow, not much is known about the Emps pre-Unification.
What exactly do we know about his fight against the Void Dragon? Was it ever described in detail what he had to do to achieve victory? The other stuff doesn't sound nearly as impressive as the stuff he got up to after Molech.
I guess one could interpret that as meaning we find a vastly more powerful Emperor following his journey to Molech, or one could interpret it as some of his more amazing early feats just being lost in the fog of history. Either way, why is it that so many people are against having the Emperor get most of his powers at Molech? Why does it matter why he's so powerful?
Ginjitzu wrote: For the sake of comparison, what are some of the more amazing feats that the Emperor was capable of before he visited Molech?
The void dragon for one, being able to inspire men and women as leaders from hiding, he killed his uncle with a psychic blast, he was able to learn about other worlds in the galaxy. That's about it, well all I can remember anyhow, not much is known about the Emps pre-Unification.
What exactly do we know about his fight against the Void Dragon? Was it ever described in detail what he had to do to achieve victory? The other stuff doesn't sound nearly as impressive as the stuff he got up to after Molech.
I guess one could interpret that as meaning we find a vastly more powerful Emperor following his journey to Molech, or one could interpret it as some of his more amazing early feats just being lost in the fog of history. Either way, why is it that so many people are against having the Emperor get most of his powers at Molech? Why does it matter why he's so powerful?
Only the description and purpose of the void dragon was ever gone into detail, its in the Mechanicum novel. All that is known is that he took it from earth and put it in a cave in Mars. He was in hiding so you'd never here of his exploits before the Unification wars.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/15 06:15:47
Ginjitzu wrote: For the sake of comparison, what are some of the more amazing feats that the Emperor was capable of before he visited Molech?
The void dragon for one, being able to inspire men and women as leaders from hiding, he killed his uncle with a psychic blast, he was able to learn about other worlds in the galaxy. That's about it, well all I can remember anyhow, not much is known about the Emps pre-Unification.
What exactly do we know about his fight against the Void Dragon? Was it ever described in detail what he had to do to achieve victory? The other stuff doesn't sound nearly as impressive as the stuff he got up to after Molech.
I guess one could interpret that as meaning we find a vastly more powerful Emperor following his journey to Molech, or one could interpret it as some of his more amazing early feats just being lost in the fog of history. Either way, why is it that so many people are against having the Emperor get most of his powers at Molech? Why does it matter why he's so powerful?
Assuming what we saw in Mechnium was more or less accurate, and taking it literally (this is a biiiiiiiiiiiiig assumption) The void dragon had fallen to earth sometime around the late 2rd century AD, the dragon needing suffering to survive managed to demand a sacrifice from the nearby village, the sacrifice was chosen by lot, and eventually the daughter of the local lord was chosen. as she was tied to a stake for the dragon and left, a warrior on shining armor came, and saw her distress. the warrior engaged the dragon and fought a hard battle against it, eventually defeating the dragon. He was able to defeat it, but not KILL it, for the dragon could not be killed, once the dragon was defeated, he requested the lady give him her shawl, and tied it around the dragon's jaws to pacify it, and then led the dragon away, locking it in a cavern under mars.
If you're british, or simply have even a passing familarity with english folklore, you'll know BTW that's a near verbatium retelling of the legend of George the Dragonslayer.
So, what we can take away from this is around the year 300 AD, the emperor managed to defeat a C'tan (a full one or simply a greater shard) with little more then steel armor, blades and his mighty psionic talents.
this is of course assuming what we see is true, and isn't all some weird Allegory
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/15 07:04:23
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Assuming what we saw in Mechnium was more or less accurate, and taking it literally (this is a biiiiiiiiiiiiig assumption) The void dragon had fallen to earth sometime around the late 2rd century AD, the dragon needing suffering to survive managed to demand a sacrifice from the nearby village, the sacrifice was chosen by lot, and eventually the daughter of the local lord was chosen. as she was tied to a stake for the dragon and left, a warrior on shining armor came, and saw her distress. the warrior engaged the dragon and fought a hard battle against it, eventually defeating the dragon. He was able to defeat it, but not KILL it, for the dragon could not be killed, once the dragon was defeated, he requested the lady give him her shawl, and tied it around the dragon's jaws to pacify it, and then led the dragon away, locking it in a cavern under mars.
If you're british, or simply have even a passing familarity with english folklore, you'll know BTW that's a near verbatium retelling of the legend of George the Dragonslayer.
So, what we can take away from this is around the year 300 AD, the emperor managed to defeat a C'tan (a full one or simply a greater shard) with little more then steel armor, blades and his mighty psionic talents.
this is of course assuming what we see is true, and isn't all some weird Allegory
Hmm. So I guess the important question is... What the heck was that shawl made from? Maybe that's what Abaddon should be focusing his efforts on!
The thing with C'Tan is their power seems pretty much to depend on how much sustenance they've received recently. Given the timeline, it seems possible the Void Dragon the Emperor fought could have been almost completely dormant. It had been around 60 million years since the Necrons tricked the C'Tan so maybe the Void Dragon had been starving for hundreds of millennia? We don't really know enough about the C'Tan to say how impressive a feat defeating one was for the Emperor. It's undoubtedly a huge deal that he was able to imprison it on Mars, though.
Ginjitzu wrote: For the sake of comparison, what are some of the more amazing feats that the Emperor was capable of before he visited Molech?
The void dragon for one, being able to inspire men and women as leaders from hiding, he killed his uncle with a psychic blast, he was able to learn about other worlds in the galaxy. That's about it, well all I can remember anyhow, not much is known about the Emps pre-Unification.
What exactly do we know about his fight against the Void Dragon? Was it ever described in detail what he had to do to achieve victory? The other stuff doesn't sound nearly as impressive as the stuff he got up to after Molech.
I guess one could interpret that as meaning we find a vastly more powerful Emperor following his journey to Molech, or one could interpret it as some of his more amazing early feats just being lost in the fog of history. Either way, why is it that so many people are against having the Emperor get most of his powers at Molech? Why does it matter why he's so powerful?
Assuming what we saw in Mechnium was more or less accurate, and taking it literally (this is a biiiiiiiiiiiiig assumption) The void dragon had fallen to earth sometime around the late 2rd century AD, the dragon needing suffering to survive managed to demand a sacrifice from the nearby village, the sacrifice was chosen by lot, and eventually the daughter of the local lord was chosen. as she was tied to a stake for the dragon and left, a warrior on shining armor came, and saw her distress. the warrior engaged the dragon and fought a hard battle against it, eventually defeating the dragon. He was able to defeat it, but not KILL it, for the dragon could not be killed, once the dragon was defeated, he requested the lady give him her shawl, and tied it around the dragon's jaws to pacify it, and then led the dragon away, locking it in a cavern under mars.
If you're british, or simply have even a passing familarity with english folklore, you'll know BTW that's a near verbatium retelling of the legend of George the Dragonslayer.
So, what we can take away from this is around the year 300 AD, the emperor managed to defeat a C'tan (a full one or simply a greater shard) with little more then steel armor, blades and his mighty psionic talents.
this is of course assuming what we see is true, and isn't all some weird Allegory
I though the perpetuals were bad. That is some of the worst guff I’ve ever heard. Way to dumb down the whole setting. Did he rid Ireland of snakes too and put the holes in polos. Does he want he honey! He does it all!
Andykp wrote: I though the perpetuals were bad. That is some of the worst guff I’ve ever heard. Way to dumb down the whole setting. Did he rid Ireland of snakes too and put the holes in polos. Does he want he honey! He does it all!
That's HH for you, answer everything in is Emperor, or Chaos. Simple and easy.
Andykp wrote: I though the perpetuals were bad. That is some of the worst guff I’ve ever heard. Way to dumb down the whole setting. Did he rid Ireland of snakes too and put the holes in polos. Does he want he honey! He does it all!
That's HH for you, answer everything in is Emperor, or Chaos. Simple and easy.
The reason I find him getting a power boost at Molech lame is the same reason I find the C'tan story kinda flat. The Emperor works best when he's a mystery. I prefer a vague origin, an unknowable persona and uncertainty to what he became after getting put on the throne.
Listing hard facts about him or trying to write convincingly from his perspective is really hard because of how post human and alien his view point would be.
Ginjitzu wrote: For the sake of comparison, what are some of the more amazing feats that the Emperor was capable of before he visited Molech?
The void dragon for one, being able to inspire men and women as leaders from hiding, he killed his uncle with a psychic blast, he was able to learn about other worlds in the galaxy. That's about it, well all I can remember anyhow, not much is known about the Emps pre-Unification.
What exactly do we know about his fight against the Void Dragon? Was it ever described in detail what he had to do to achieve victory? The other stuff doesn't sound nearly as impressive as the stuff he got up to after Molech.
I guess one could interpret that as meaning we find a vastly more powerful Emperor following his journey to Molech, or one could interpret it as some of his more amazing early feats just being lost in the fog of history. Either way, why is it that so many people are against having the Emperor get most of his powers at Molech? Why does it matter why he's so powerful?
Assuming what we saw in Mechnium was more or less accurate, and taking it literally (this is a biiiiiiiiiiiiig assumption) The void dragon had fallen to earth sometime around the late 2rd century AD, the dragon needing suffering to survive managed to demand a sacrifice from the nearby village, the sacrifice was chosen by lot, and eventually the daughter of the local lord was chosen. as she was tied to a stake for the dragon and left, a warrior on shining armor came, and saw her distress. the warrior engaged the dragon and fought a hard battle against it, eventually defeating the dragon. He was able to defeat it, but not KILL it, for the dragon could not be killed, once the dragon was defeated, he requested the lady give him her shawl, and tied it around the dragon's jaws to pacify it, and then led the dragon away, locking it in a cavern under mars.
If you're british, or simply have even a passing familarity with english folklore, you'll know BTW that's a near verbatium retelling of the legend of George the Dragonslayer.
So, what we can take away from this is around the year 300 AD, the emperor managed to defeat a C'tan (a full one or simply a greater shard) with little more then steel armor, blades and his mighty psionic talents.
this is of course assuming what we see is true, and isn't all some weird Allegory
I though the perpetuals were bad. That is some of the worst guff I’ve ever heard. Way to dumb down the whole setting. Did he rid Ireland of snakes too and put the holes in polos. Does he want he honey! He does it all!
... err why? we've LONG known the Emperor in his various guises occasionally appered as religious political and cultural figures throughout history. No one has ever said that was stupid. Now suddenly we have strong evidance to support one of those guises, AND an explination for an old myth and suddenly it's bad?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/15 21:58:01
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Because that is cheesy lazy lame childish writing. He used to be a mythical figure and then there was mystery over mars and the void dragon and the C’tan and the ommnissiah.....but now it’s just the emperor somehow flew to mars with a dragon and stuck it in a cave. A CAVE! Not even burried or anything. Just in a cave. And all to save some damsel in distress. It’s pathetic.
He used to be rumoured to be various figures through history but being st George is silly. And not the actual st George, no the completely unbelievable historically inaccurate dragon slaying depiction of st george. If you want to make him a historical figure, hitler or Stalin would fit better. He isn’t supposed to be a hero. No one is in 40k. It doesn’t do goodies.
I always got the impression the Emperor was meant to be a hero of sorts, but a hero for the utilitarianism idea of for the greater good (ironically). So saving Terra from the Void Dragon is entirely in keeping with that. But using the Primarchs and Space Marines as tools he doesn't truly love is also in keeping with that. He is a hero for Humanity, not for humans.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Andykp wrote: Because that is cheesy lazy lame childish writing. He used to be a mythical figure and then there was mystery over mars and the void dragon and the C’tan and the ommnissiah.....but now it’s just the emperor somehow flew to mars with a dragon and stuck it in a cave. A CAVE! Not even burried or anything. Just in a cave. And all to save some damsel in distress. It’s pathetic.
He used to be rumoured to be various figures through history but being st George is silly. And not the actual st George, no the completely unbelievable historically inaccurate dragon slaying depiction of st george. If you want to make him a historical figure, hitler or Stalin would fit better. He isn’t supposed to be a hero. No one is in 40k. It doesn’t do goodies.
You assume he fought the dragon to save a girl. He didn't. he did it because he needed the void dragon installed on mars (BTW "cave" really doesn't do where he stuffed the thing justice) to eventually shape the direction of Martian society .
Haighus is pretty much dead on. As Gulliman himself observed. in an internal monologue when asked if "the emperor loves us" "The Emperor does not love humans on an individual level, rather he loves the idea of humanity."
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The reason I find him getting a power boost at Molech lame is the same reason I find the C'tan story kinda flat. The Emperor works best when he's a mystery. I prefer a vague origin, an unknowable persona and uncertainty to what he became after getting put on the throne.
Listing hard facts about him or trying to write convincingly from his perspective is really hard because of how post human and alien his view point would be.
Nurglitch wrote:
Spoiler:
The Emperor really does work best as a background figure in whom you just kind of have to have faith.
I couldn't agree more with the both of you. The answer to a mystery, more often than not, only serves to spoil the intrigue of the mystery itself. I can probably count on one hand, the amount of conclusions to a mystery where I went, "Wow! That was worth it," but the amount of awesome, mysterious settings that have been ruined by over development of the background is uncountable. I think, in many ways, the Horus Heresy series is the worst thing to happen to the lore of the 40k universe. It's an unfortunate characteristic of us, as consumers, that when presented with something we love, we invariably want more, which we consume until we become full, and can no longer stomach the thing we loved so much.
The reason I find him getting a power boost at Molech lame is the same reason I find the C'tan story kinda flat. The Emperor works best when he's a mystery. I prefer a vague origin, an unknowable persona and uncertainty to what he became after getting put on the throne.
Listing hard facts about him or trying to write convincingly from his perspective is really hard because of how post human and alien his view point would be.
Nurglitch wrote:
Spoiler:
The Emperor really does work best as a background figure in whom you just kind of have to have faith.
I couldn't agree more with the both of you. The answer to a mystery, more often than not, only serves to spoil the intrigue of the mystery itself. I can probably count on one hand, the amount of conclusions to a mystery where I went, "Wow! That was worth it," but the amount of awesome, mysterious settings that have been ruined by over development of the background is uncountable. I think, in many ways, the Horus Heresy series is the worst thing to happen to the lore of the 40k universe. It's an unfortunate characteristic of us, as consumers, that when presented with something we love, we invariably want more, which we consume until we become full, and can no longer stomach the thing we loved so much.
Amen brother.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Brian that’s as bad a reason. All of a sudden the emperor is responsible for everything that has happened in human history ever and has shaped the entire galaxy to his plan. Regardless of all the other races involvement and actions. It just takes all the intrigue and tension out of the setting. The tension between earth and mars, the imperium and ad mech, even chaos and the imperium.
The emperor used to represent a Jesus style character, a worshipped corpse that was really unknown in his true history but with lots of stories about him. The astronomicon represents Jesuss light guiding Christians from sin etc. These books are turning him into a marvel character, very two D with no real depth or character at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/16 09:04:31
except we've known all along the emperor guided gak from behind the scenes, now that we're given ONE example, and shown the absurdly long game he was playing you complain?
remember Andy the summerizations here are are just that summeries and simplifications, a paragraph is no subsitute for a 300 page book.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The whole "saving the maiden" part of the story always seemed to me to be an embellishment added after the fact, to make the story more agreeable to people at the time. From what we know of C'Tan, they're not really into eating individuals so much as entire civilisations so it doesn't really seem likely the story happened literally as folklore described. The only reference to the Dragon, as far as I'm aware, in the more recent books is the fleeting passage in Mechanicum, which is very light on details.
While I like the idea the Emperor was thinking tens of thousands of years in advance, I do agree that one of the biggest problems with the HH series is the demystification of the setting. We know too much now and I think each revelation diminishes the story a little bit more each time.
Slipspace wrote: The whole "saving the maiden" part of the story always seemed to me to be an embellishment added after the fact, to make the story more agreeable to people at the time. From what we know of C'Tan, they're not really into eating individuals so much as entire civilisations so it doesn't really seem likely the story happened literally as folklore described. The only reference to the Dragon, as far as I'm aware, in the more recent books is the fleeting passage in Mechanicum, which is very light on details.
While I like the idea the Emperor was thinking tens of thousands of years in advance, I do agree that one of the biggest problems with the HH series is the demystification of the setting. We know too much now and I think each revelation diminishes the story a little bit more each time.
It can yes, especially if the answers to the myths are dissappointing or become almost a meme. if for example every, and I mean every m ystery was found to have been the plot of a tired lame ass conspirity thrown in to make a lame over arching bad guy it can really hurt the setting.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: except we've known all along the emperor guided gak from behind the scenes, now that we're given ONE example, and shown the absurdly long game he was playing you complain?
remember Andy the summerizations here are are just that summeries and simplifications, a paragraph is no subsitute for a 300 page book.
We didn’t know he guided things. He tried to steer some things and the like but being behind everything is just lazy. It’s only my opinion and you can have yours but it’s nice to see I’m not alone in disliking what the HH series is doing.
I couldn't agree more with the both of you. The answer to a mystery, more often than not, only serves to spoil the intrigue of the mystery itself. I can probably count on one hand, the amount of conclusions to a mystery where I went, "Wow! That was worth it," but the amount of awesome, mysterious settings that have been ruined by over development of the background is uncountable. I think, in many ways, the Horus Heresy series is the worst thing to happen to the lore of the 40k universe. It's an unfortunate characteristic of us, as consumers, that when presented with something we love, we invariably want more, which we consume until we become full, and can no longer stomach the thing we loved so much.
