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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

However an ULTRAMARINES and WHITE SCARS Rhino would indeed be the same as both have <Chapter Tacits> on the datasheet, regardless of it being replaced.
It also doesn't matter for Rhinos as DTs are not limted by the ruel of 3.

But Terminators, for example, would be.

In any case, I disagree because the rules for <CHAPTER> and the other <KEYWORDS> say to replace the <KEYWORD> on the datasheet with the keyword of your choice. Otherwise you'd not be able to affect a <CHAPTER> unit with Calgar because he only affects ULTRAMARINES, not <CHAPTER>.

If this were the case, the rule of 3 would be utterly pointless.
If I wanted 6 Fire Prims, then I could just take 3 Alaitoc and 3 Iyanden. Thankfully this isn't the case as both START with the same datasheet. Replacing Keyword during list building does not change that.
But units with pre-set Keywords would be different from each other, as they started as different from the moment they were printed in their respective books.

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It's not pointless. It stops you taking SIX -1 to hit Fire Prisms instead of three.

Lucky, then, that from a ‘what the rules actually say’ POV, when using the ‘Rule Of Three’ you can have three Prisms total.

The rule of three is almost completely pointless.

It is ill-conceived, badly written and doesn't address the mischief it is purportedly aimed at.

Again, 24 Sorcerors of various stripes are fine. Four Hellflayers are not.

Can't you just take three Fire Prisms from one Craftworld and three from another? I don't have that book.

EDIT - Yes, you can. You can field three Fire Prisms from each of the five Craftworlds, so you're 'limited' to fifteen of them by the rule of three.

Phew.

 Galef wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are three ways to look at this (as near as I can tell):

1. If it has the same name then it is the same datasheet.

Problem with this means that Space Marines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are all forced to then use the Rhino found in the Space Wolves Codex (most recent datasheet for the Rhino) since every codex has a datasheet called "Rhino".

2. If it has the same name AND the same Keywords (including Faction Keywords) it is the same Datasheet.

Problem: Most datasheets include a <Faction>, whether it is <Chapter>, <Craftworld>, <Regiment>, etc. This means when you change the <Faction> it is a different datasheet, and one could include 3x ULTRAMARINE Librarians, and 3x WHITE SCARS Librarians.

3. Only datasheets from the same codex is the same.
Problem: If you can somehow pull the same unit for the same army from multiple sources, they are considered to be different datasheets.

In regards to the problem with number 3, however, I believe that is only an issue if you consider Forgeworld to be a separate "codex" or supplemental datasheets.

I like your reasoning here. There is also option 4:
Datasheets that are identical are the same, regardless of source. This means EVERYTHING on the datasheet must be the same. Factions, whether "pre-set" or variable, options, wargear, etc.

So in the case of Rhinos, a BA, DA and SW Rhino are all different as they have a different pre-set Faction. The SM Rhino is also different as it has <Chapter Tactic> on its sheet.
However an ULTRAMARINES and WHITE SCARS Rhino would indeed be the same as both have <Chapter Tacits> on the datasheet, regardless of it being replaced.
It also doesn't matter for Rhinos as DTs are not limted by the ruel of 3.

For the OPs specific example, Tsons and DG Sorcerers may have many superficial similarities, but as they have different wargear and Psychic Power Options, not to mention different "pre-set" Factions, they are NOT the same datasheet.

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Unless I am mis-reading what you are saying, Option 4 IS Option 3.

SM Rhino = SM Rhino, regardless of <Chapter>, but SM Rhino =/= BA Rhino =/= DA Rhino =/= SW Rhino. The only time where Option 3 breaks down is if you have (Codex) SM Rhino and (FW Index) SM Rhino (Which does not reference Codex SM/Index Imperium).

The break (as far as I can tell) is moot, because I do not believe there are any circumstances where army X has access to UNIT from the Codex AND from FW Index.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The rule of three is almost completely pointless.

It is ill-conceived, badly written and doesn't address the mischief it is purportedly aimed at.

Again, 24 Sorcerors of various stripes are fine. Four Hellflayers are not.

Can't you just take three Fire Prisms from one Craftworld and three from another? I don't have that book.

EDIT - Yes, you can. You can field three Fire Prisms from each of the five Craftworlds, so you're 'limited' to fifteen of them by the rule of three.

Phew.

No, no you can’t. All Craftworlds use the same Datasheet. You can take three, under the Rule Of Three.

Replacing <CRAFTWORLD> on two or more Datasheets with at two or more different words, like 'Alaitoc' or 'Iyanden' makes two or more Datasheets that are not identical. That are different. That are not the same.

'Cause one now says <ALAITOC> and one now says <IYANDEN> which, crucially, aren't the same words.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Replacing <CRAFTWORLD> on two or more Datasheets with at two or more different words, like 'Alaitoc' or 'Iyanden' makes two or more Datasheets that are not identical. That are different. That are not the same.

'Cause one now says <ALAITOC> and one now says <IYANDEN> which, crucially, aren't the same words.

That’s not how it works.

Oh, well if you say so then.

I didn't realize your counter-argument would be so compelling.

That is exactly how it works. A preposterous rule produces a preposterous result.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Oh, well if you say so then.

I didn't realize your counter-argument would be so compelling.

That is exactly how it works. A preposterous rule produces a preposterous result.

No need for snark, stay polite.

You are quite literally using the same Datasheet. Changing a mutable Keyword in no way changes the page of the book you’re using, or mystically change the printing. It’s the same Datasheet you’re starting from. So it’s the same Datasheet. If you’re going to argue black=white then mock me there’s little point in discussing anything.

The same datasheets that have different words on them now you've replaced <CRAFTWORLD>?

It quite openly and explicitly says 'replace'. When you replace it with something else, you make it different.

You make it no longer the same.

Did you replace them on the copy of your Datasheet in your book? Do you have two books to allow you to have two different copies of the Datahsheet?

This argument appears to be rooted in a dislike of the rule, not a real interpretation of what the rule says.

 alextroy wrote:
Did you replace them on the copy of your Datasheet in your book? Do you have two books to allow you to have two different copies of the Datahsheet?

This argument appears to be rooted in a dislike of the rule, not a real interpretation of what the rule says.

The rule doesn't care about what the book says, it cares about what datasheets are in your army. The unit in your army has the altered datasheet because the rule for the keyword tells you to do so. It works this way to allow Special Character Auras to work.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Did you replace them on the copy of your Datasheet in your book? Do you have two books to allow you to have two different copies of the Datahsheet?

This argument appears to be rooted in a dislike of the rule, not a real interpretation of what the rule says.

The rule doesn't care about what the book says, it cares about what datasheets are in your army. The unit in your army has the altered datasheet because the rule for the keyword tells you to do so. It works this way to allow Special Character Auras to work.

Whether you change the Keyword or not, it's the same Datasheet. Altered for rules purposes, but the same Datasheet.

To illustrate:

- On which page of the Craftworlds Codex do you find the Datasheet for an Alaitoc Fire Prism?
- On which page of the Craftworlds Codex do you find the Datasheet for a Biel-Tan Fire Prism?
- If the answer for both is the same, it's the same Datasheet

I hope this helps.

Replaceable keywords do not make the datasheet different.
You still start with the datasheet with <Craftworld> as a keyword. Replacing it with ALAITOC or IYANDEN does not change the datasheet itself, and that's the point

But when 2 very similar datasheets exist in different Codicies with different pre-set Faction keywords, such as THOUSAND SONS or DEATH GUARD, they are indeed different datasheets.
They also come with separate powers, thus reinforcing them as different

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Altered, but the same.

Changed, but the same.

Different, but the same.

Not identical, but the same.

But of course, it is me putting ridiculous spins on things.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Altered, but the same.

Changed, but the same.

Different, but the same.

Not identical, but the same.

But of course, it is me putting ridiculous spins on things.

Replacing the Keyword changes the properties of the datasheet, but is doesn't change the fact that an Alaitoc Prism and an Iyanden Prism selected the same datasheet in the first place.
The Tsons and DG Sorcerers are actually different datasheets on different pages of different books

If I asked a player using "different" Fire Prisms to present their "different" datasheets to me as a TO, that player could only show me the same datasheet from the same page of the CWE codex with <Craftworld> on its page. Replacing the keyword in their list does NOT retroactively add a whole new datasheet into their printed Codex.
An ALAITOC and IYANDEN Prism use the same datasheet, ergo, you can only ever have 3 in a list of ANY kind of Prism

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Not ridiculous, just incorrect as it currently stands. The Datasheet is literally the same. The Keyword system working as it does in no way makes the Datasheet a different Datasheet.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Not ridiculous, just incorrect as it currently stands. The Datasheet is literally the same. The Keyword system working as it does in no way makes the Datasheet a different Datasheet.

Exactly. Replacing keywords happens in your LIST, but since your book will still show <Chapter Tactic> or whatever, it remains the same datasheet.
If you can somehow show a printed datasheet with this keyword already replaced, again in your PRINTED codex, than we'd all get to call you out for forgery.
<Keywords> always stay on the datasheet, whether replaced in your list or not.

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I simply adore that you're importing all of these convoluted methods instead of just using the actual definitions of the actual words.

The rules says you replace it on the Datasheet, not in the list, but nice try.

That you have to work this hard to try and make it workable says everything anyone needs to know about the rule of three.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The rules says you replace it on the Datasheet, not in the list, but nice try.

Show me your printed datasheet in which the keyword has been replaced.....I'll wait.

On second thought, I won't wait, because I know you cannot. Any datasheet you show me will still read <Keyword> on its print
As a TO, I would ask that you present the DIFFERENT datasheets to prove you can play 3 Alaitoc Prisms and 3 Iyanden Prism. You would not be able to, because it's the same datasheet.
That's hardly convoluted.

The rule of 3 only allows 3 of the same datasheet and no more. Replacing a keyword on a datasheet doesn't make it a different one, just changes the properties of that datasheet.
Unlike Tsons and DG Sorcerers that do indeed have wholly separate datasheets in wholly separate books
The crux of a datasheet being different is literally that it is printed more than once AND those printings have something different about them

If you could "make" a single datasheet different by simply replacing a word in your imagination (because we don't physically change the print) than the rule of 3 wold absolutely fail in it's purpose.
I chose the interpretation that doesn't outright fail. You should try that too, it makes the game work more often which is far more fun.

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So now to make it work you're denying every Faction their Chapter Tactics equivalents. Awesome. If you're going to be htis rigid about things, then your army doesn't get CT equivalents unless you print off a datasheet for each unit and show me where you've replaced <CRAFTWORLD>.

You're explicitly directed to replace the keyword "on the datasheet". That is exactly what the rule says. I guess you could spit your dummy out because I haven't written Alaitoc on three datasheets and Iyanden on three others, or you could recognize that nobody is printing out a separate datasheet for every unit they take in every game they play.

Your version of events is not supported by the rules, the language or logic.

What does changing the properties of something do? Does it make it identical to what it was before? Does it make the same as before? You cannot even articulate your own position without shooting it in the foot.

What?!?!? That doesn't make any sense. I'm not invalidating anyone's <Keywords>

The question is: Are they different datasheets?
Nothing "in the rules" makes them a wholly different datasheet if you replace a keyword.
This is "proved" by presenting said datasheets. If you cannot present 2 separate datasheets (because you STARTED with the same one) than it is clearly the same datahsheet.
Ergo, you cannot have more than 3

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Which part of what I said are you having trouble with?

The words and their meanings? Just make it up as you go along.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I simply adore that you're importing all of these convoluted methods instead of just using the actual definitions of the actual words.

The rules says you replace it on the Datasheet, not in the list, but nice try.

That you have to work this hard to try and make it workable says everything anyone needs to know about the rule of three.

Keywords are replaced after selecting a datasheet, this is clearly written in the BRB.

Therefore, in order to have 3 Iyanden fire prisms and 3 allaitoc fire prisms, you would have to select the same datasheet six times and then replace the keywords.

If you are playing by the rule of 3, you are forbidden from selecting the same datasheet six times.

It's as simple as following the rules.

 Jidmah wrote:

Keywords are replaced after selecting a datasheet, this is clearly written in the BRB.

Therefore, in order to have 3 Iyanden fire prisms and 3 allaitoc fire prisms, you would have to select the same datasheet six times and then replace the keywords.

If you are playing by the rule of 3, you are forbidden from selecting the same datasheet six times.

It's as simple as following the rules.

Thank you! That was worded way better than I was doing.

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Where is it clearly written? I Ctrl-F'd 'keyword' and it doesn't appear to be in mine.

The actual rules in the Codexes says that you select the <KEYWORD> "when you include" the datasheet.

Also, your own logic breaks down at the slightest scrutiny. You go from pick a datasheet and replace the keyword to pick all six datasheets and then change the keyword. There's no support at all.

So when I include a datasheet, I select Alaitoc. I include it again and I select Iyanden. I now have two datasheets that are not the same.

The part where they tell you how to use models in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Where is it clearly written? I Ctrl-F'd 'keyword' and it doesn't appear to be in mine.

The actual rules in the Codexes says that you select the <KEYWORD> "when you include" the datasheet.

Which is exactly what I said. You bring six fire prisms, you include the datasheet six times.

 Jidmah wrote:
Which is exactly what I said. You bring six fire prisms, you include the datasheet six times.

And by that logic I can't include 3 units of Blood Angel Aggressors and 3 units of Ultramarine Aggressors. In fact I can't use the Ultramarine or Blood Angel Aggressors at all, I have to use the Space Wolf ones.

Odd that you won't give me a reference. Again, I searched it and what you are claiming doesn't appear to exist and is directly contrary to the Codex rules.

Oh, so you're also inventing a requirement that you have pick all six datasheets at the same time? Do you have a non-existent BRB reference for that, too?

Less snark please.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Which is exactly what I said. You bring six fire prisms, you include the datasheet six times.

And by that logic I can't include 3 units of Blood Angel Aggressors and 3 units of Ultramarine Aggressors. In fact I can't use the Ultramarine or Blood Angel Aggressors at all, I have to use the Space Wolf ones.

No because, those are three datasheets from three different codices. You can physically lay them next to each other.

Please stop your false analogies to derail actual RAW discussion.