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 ClockworkZion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So were are clutching at straws now to the extent that if you don’t look too closely some of the human models could be female in the right light.

The current state of females in the 49k setting and range is indefensible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
If you are saying that the lack of Guardswomen models is a problem that GW should fix ASAP then we are completely in agreement.

Yes it is. Then move on to other human lines.

It IS defensible in the respect that GW used to REALLY suck at doing female faces and models but has gotten better. That said, it's a matter of actually taking the time and money to update existing armies to meet the level of ability the company now has.

That doesn’t defend the lack of females in the fluff. I admit it is better than in the model line and improving but it’s still weak. They have been able to sculpt women to a decent standard for the line to be in better shape than it is now. Two new female models this edition is not much.

Sisters of Battle look like women. Cadians look like men. If you had a point, I'm not seeing it.

The fact that you can say almost all of GW's minis have classically masculine faces is exactly why we have a (currently) nine-page thread about women in 40k...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I mean "impractical" from the standards of somebody who's going to be ducking behind a crate and shooting chaos mutants. She's a high-class aristocrat so looking good is more important to her than wearing sturdy, flexible military gear even though the latter would reasonable be more helpful in what she does.

Oh, I don't know about that. It can totally be possible that a rich enough noble can buy a fashion accessory that doubles as good armor.
Remember that Rogue Traders has a wider access to certain exotic equipment than most Imperials, so a seemingly fragile corset could in fact double as a piece of sturdy armor due to special materials or hidden alien tech.

Andykp wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So were are clutching at straws now to the extent that if you don’t look too closely some of the human models could be female in the right light.

The current state of females in the 49k setting and range is indefensible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
If you are saying that the lack of Guardswomen models is a problem that GW should fix ASAP then we are completely in agreement.

Yes it is. Then move on to other human lines.

It IS defensible in the respect that GW used to REALLY suck at doing female faces and models but has gotten better. That said, it's a matter of actually taking the time and money to update existing armies to meet the level of ability the company now has.

That doesn’t defend the lack of females in the fluff. I admit it is better than in the model line and improving but it’s still weak. They have been able to sculpt women to a decent standard for the line to be in better shape than it is now. Two new female models this edition is not much.

We do have females in the fluff, the problem is the majority of the books are Marine focused (and I've complained about having Marines as protagonists before) which leads to a majority of them having male protagonists.

GW did add some females in 5th to the rules side of things, but had to then pull them in 6th when they realized they couldn't protect the IP of the characters they don't produce models for. I wish they'd just given them models instead, but it's an issue that likely has to do with how Kirby ran GW.

@Excommunicatus: You clearly haven't seen how many "man face" complaints I've seen regarding the current Sisters line then.

Is it not fine how they're doing it now? They've slid women into AoS naturally and without creating a stink, why buck the trend and come up with something new? Just release a few new eldar torsos, a mixed set of guard heads (or give us a whole do over because boy do they need it), maybe even a guard female HQ and boom, done. Plus they're already making Sisters of Battle. As for the cultural stuff... Maybe 40k isn't the best place for serious cultural depictions.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Is it not fine how they're doing it now? They've slid women into AoS naturally and without creating a stink, why buck the trend and come up with something new? Just release a few new eldar torsos, a mixed set of guard heads (or give us a whole do over because boy do they need it), maybe even a guard female HQ and boom, done. Plus they're already making Sisters of Battle. As for the cultural stuff... Maybe 40k isn't the best place for serious cultural depictions.

They'll probably only do it as they update/replace kits to be honest.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


@Excommunicatus: You clearly haven't seen how many "man face" complaints I've seen regarding the current Sisters line then.

I have, I just don't agree that you can hand-wave everything away by saying 'sculpts used to be less than ideal', nor that you can say that a face which does not accord to what you (not personally you, you understand) thinks of as a female face somehow doesn't count.

Subjective 'man-face' or not, the Sister' faces are female and obviously so, even at a distance.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Is it not fine how they're doing it now? They've slid women into AoS naturally and without creating a stink, why buck the trend and come up with something new? Just release a few new eldar torsos, a mixed set of guard heads (or give us a whole do over because boy do they need it), maybe even a guard female HQ and boom, done. Plus they're already making Sisters of Battle. As for the cultural stuff... Maybe 40k isn't the best place for serious cultural depictions.

doesn't it have a serious depiction of culture, the imperial one . Between 2000s earth and the 40k, there is a ton of time, If we tried to make a todays story about anything that includes any culture living anywhere other then africa, then a span of 38k years inclusion would give us a book or a movie that makes no sense. In europe 500 years would be enough with all the dislocations that happened.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


@Excommunicatus: You clearly haven't seen how many "man face" complaints I've seen regarding the current Sisters line then.

I have, I just don't agree that you can hand-wave everything away by saying 'sculpts used to be less than ideal', nor that you can say that a face which does not accord to what you (not personally you, you understand) thinks of as a female face somehow doesn't count.

Subjective 'man-face' or not, the Sister' faces are female and obviously so, even at a distance.

My "hand waving" was more saying that I can understand why they chose to not do female Guard heads at the time considering how bad at it they were (plus the lack of detail in their mold making process to support the finer details a female face would have).

Not really. The Imperium is just 1984 in space. It's not a serious cultural depiction.

There are lots of cultural/historical references in 40K, I would be hard-pressed to describe any of them as 'serious'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


@Excommunicatus: You clearly haven't seen how many "man face" complaints I've seen regarding the current Sisters line then.

I have, I just don't agree that you can hand-wave everything away by saying 'sculpts used to be less than ideal', nor that you can say that a face which does not accord to what you (not personally you, you understand) thinks of as a female face somehow doesn't count.

Subjective 'man-face' or not, the Sister' faces are female and obviously so, even at a distance.

My "hand waving" was more saying that I can understand why they chose to not do female Guard heads at the time considering how bad at it they were (plus the lack of detail in their mold making process to support the finer details a female face would have).

Which doesn't make sense. You are arguing that they made men who looked like men and women who looked like women, albeit not sociologically 'idealized' women, therefore it made sense that they didn't make any more women?

I'm doing my best to not assume bad things about you, but the casual misogyny in that argument is shocking.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Not really. The Imperium is just 1984 in space. It's not a serious cultural depiction.

There are lots of cultural/historical references in 40K, I would be hard-pressed to describe any of them as 'serious'.

but then it would be communist, and the imperium maybe many things, but communist it is not. It is a theocracy.

My "hand waving" was more saying that I can understand why they chose to not do female Guard heads at the time considering how bad at it they were (plus the lack of detail in their mold making process to support the finer details a female face would have).

They didn't get much better at sculpting though. Something that on old models can be explained as old esthetics, right now with stuff like demonets or the various eldar and elf females with DDR body builder faces is impossible. So either GW just didn't have any good sculptors in house after Diaz, or this is exactly the faces they want and like to have on their females. And looking at the mock ups of the new SoB faces, I must say that the full helmet and gas mask version are the best versions of heads for SoB shown.

Karol wrote:
They didn't get much better at sculpting though. Something that on old models can be explained as old esthetics, right now with stuff like demonets or the various eldar and elf females with DDR body builder faces is impossible. So either GW just didn't have any good sculptors in house after Diaz, or this is exactly the faces they want and like to have on their females. And looking at the mock ups of the new SoB faces, I must say that the full helmet and gas mask version are the best versions of heads for SoB shown.

They've gotten better at sculpting female looking heads, but part of the problem I've seen is the paint jobs tend to make the faces look thicker than they are.

The new SoB, Celestine and palls as well as Greyfax have excellent faces. The new female Sigmarines have great faces as well.

Maybe I had a look at old models. But the SCE females are new, no idea how new the elf and eldar models are, but they don't seem very old. they are all plastic. Both the AoS and w40k wych look like female bodybuilders including the faces.

Karol wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Not really. The Imperium is just 1984 in space. It's not a serious cultural depiction.

There are lots of cultural/historical references in 40K, I would be hard-pressed to describe any of them as 'serious'.

but then it would be communist, and the imperium maybe many things, but communist it is not. It is a theocracy.

Which is why it's not a serious depiction. 1984 is about Stalinism, FYI, and Stalinism was closer to a theocracy than it was to true Communism. It's not a failing, really, the dystopian future-of-mankind thing is dominated by imagery from 1984 and Brave New World.

Cultural/historical references in 40K are little more than head-nods, they don't (usually) incorporate outside material wholesale.

I mean, what's with Ultramarines pretending to be Romans and not even advancing in a formation of spears and shields? Phonys.

So, 5/7 voters are well adjusted people. That's my take away.

Just playing. People like what they like, but this small sample seems to indicate a general trend that Dakkites are open to having new models that include women.

I remember that moving from Dark Eldar to the Guard, I was surprised that there were no women models. The Warriors and Wyches had men and women in the ranks, and it seemed weird to me that the Guard would be all men.

 Manchu wrote:
Cadian models do not look at all like women and really cannot be mistaken for women, if we’re being serious. They were designed pretty clearly to be tough looking men. They even look masculine stood next to Space Marines.

They are also horrifically proportioned and look like a man in a man suit wearing body armor.

i think unisex units of guardsmen could work so long as they work on making the proportions right.

i mean if they go like the scion route with bigger torso armor and armored arms then only legs and heads would be really needed. or not. im no scientist.

FWIW, the Cadian torso itself doesn't look too out of place on a 'female' miniature if you use other arms, legs and head.

My Malefic 'Lords' use Cadian torsos, Escher arms and Daemonette heads. They look passably female and will do, for now.

Here's my 'concept' minis. Ignore the one on the left, I pulled her apart and remade her 'cause I preferred the 'possessed' look.

I’m actually really satisfied with GW on this front lately.

When Imperial Knights came out, only men could be pilots. In the current codex either gender can be pilots.

In Age if Sigmar they released all male Stormcast, but implied women could be them, leading many to speculate Sigmar must turn them into men when he reformed them. Now there’s a new starter with recognizable mixed gender units.

In Warhammer Quest and Rogue Trader we see different races and skin tones, multiple genders, lots of variety.

For folks concerned by such things it’s been a great couple years. I’d still love some female Cadians, even if only as forgeworld releases, and it appears a lot of folks would. Otherwise, keep on keeping on GW, I’m loving all of it!

Oggthrok wrote:
I’m actually really satisfied with GW on this front lately.

When Imperial Knights came out, only men could be pilots. In the current codex either gender can be pilots.

In Age if Sigmar they released all male Stormcast, but implied women could be them, leading many to speculate Sigmar must turn them into men when he reformed them. Now there’s a new starter with recognizable mixed gender units.

In Warhammer Quest and Rogue Trader we see different races and skin tones, multiple genders, lots of variety.

For folks concerned by such things it’s been a great couple years. I’d still love some female Cadians, even if only as forgeworld releases, and it appears a lot of folks would. Otherwise, keep on keeping on GW, I’m loving all of it!

Yep, things have definitely markedly improved, so there is plenty of reason to be hopeful that the guardswomen will happen as well.

Andykp wrote:
That doesn’t defend the lack of females in the fluff. I admit it is better than in the model line and improving but it’s still weak. They have been able to sculpt women to a decent standard for the line to be in better shape than it is now. Two new female models this edition is not much.

I haven't read anywhere near all the stuff out there, but I've read a good amount, and there is a well written, and if not, at least likeable female character in like every book, and when the setting is "angry men in armor" I actually feel like there's a good female presence in the lore. My favorite one is probably the old iterator in Fulgrims primarch novel, she was awesome


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:


Which doesn't make sense. You are arguing that they made men who looked like men and women who looked like women, albeit not sociologically 'idealized' women, therefore it made sense that they didn't make any more women?

I'm doing my best to not assume bad things about you, but the casual misogyny in that argument is shocking.

It actually reads like you're trying your hardest to twist his words into something you can condemn him for... But ok

I haven not read any posts (except last few and then where like Canada should be happy did read or some crap).... WTF, GW have many female units in the game, just add in a few more. People may rage, omg not enough or to much. "You are sexist" "your are not". F**K them. It's a game. Rage at Black library (Heroin's are in atm so they will be pumping them out don't worry). If there is discrimination bring it up.

However, I personally think if people move on from it and talk about equality not segregation or discrimination. We don't talk about race or sex we talk about humans, we don't talk about class we talk about what can do. The "isims" is what is destroying cultures. All we have now days is crap like selfisim/racisim/genderisim/sexisim and that is what promotes a negative environment.

If we talk about what we are together not what we think others are, we could be...

EDIT:

I didn't hit that pole cause is freakin ridiculous.

Dear Mods, please close this liberal political gak storm.

Yours faithfully

NMwT

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Dear Mods, please close this liberal political gak storm.

Yours faithfully

NMwT

I don't get why this is being portrayed as political to have GW make models that exist in their own story. We have a ton of female guardsmen in the back story and the official model line should reflect that. Yes I can go to a third party to get models/bits but in the aftermath of chapter house for once I'd like GW to take a positive spin on that decision and add more options rather than cutting them.

You'll notice in the thread a lot of people overreacting about gender/race/sex issues hypothetically being forced into 40k, but nobody is actually suggesting doing it. They just raise straw men. Not GW, not any serious amount of posters.

The people in favour of more female models are just asking for a reasonable representation of models that fit the background. Nobody wants female Necrons, or Orks or Nids. Mostly they just want female humans in the guard for the most part. I have literally no idea why someone would oppose that when we have female soldiers RIGHT NOW and they exist in the 40k universe. Some of you need to grow up.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I haven not read any posts (except last few and then where like Canada should be happy did read or some crap).... WTF, GW have many female units in the game, just add in a few more. People may rage, omg not enough or to much. "You are sexist" "your are not". F**K them. It's a game. Rage at Black library (Heroin's are in atm so they will be pumping them out don't worry). If there is discrimination bring it up.

However, I personally think if people move on from it and talk about equality not segregation or discrimination. We don't talk about race or sex we talk about humans, we don't talk about class we talk about what can do. The "isims" is what is destroying cultures. All we have now days is crap like selfisim/racisim/genderisim/sexisim and that is what promotes a negative environment.

If we talk about what we are together not what we think others are, we could be...

EDIT:

I didn't hit that pole cause is freakin ridiculous.

Most of the first two pages (and most of the rest of her topic) is people agreeing that the only thing that needs to happen in a model sense is for AM to get updated kits that reflect their lore.
It's actually been a pretty good conversation.

Anyone else notice these threads only turn up on weekends... almost as if the lack of weekend mods allows gakposting

Lammia wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I haven not read any posts (except last few and then where like Canada should be happy did read or some crap).... WTF, GW have many female units in the game, just add in a few more. People may rage, omg not enough or to much. "You are sexist" "your are not". F**K them. It's a game. Rage at Black library (Heroin's are in atm so they will be pumping them out don't worry). If there is discrimination bring it up.

However, I personally think if people move on from it and talk about equality not segregation or discrimination. We don't talk about race or sex we talk about humans, we don't talk about class we talk about what can do. The "isims" is what is destroying cultures. All we have now days is crap like selfisim/racisim/genderisim/sexisim and that is what promotes a negative environment.

If we talk about what we are together not what we think others are, we could be...

EDIT:

I didn't hit that pole cause is freakin ridiculous.

Most of the first two pages (and most of the rest of her topic) is people agreeing that the only thing that needs to happen in a model sense is for AM to get updated kits that reflect their lore.
It's actually been a pretty good conversation.

That's awesome then, my post was against Americanisaion and discrimination against culture.

I would love AM female miniatures then I would not have to order from Victoria miniatures (Sorry Victoria but would prefer GW units tbh)

And I want to say I'd love female AM miniatures. Really I would just love any new AM miniatures. AM is my favourite faction and the lack of good models for them is really keeping my enthusiasm for the game at a low point.

I agree some new guard models would be great though, it’s the only thing holding me back from a guard army