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Hey all, I'm getting back into 40k after like, a 7 year hiatus, and want to start my first official army, a 2000pt Iron Hands! I'm trying to build what I think is a chapter specific kind of army, so heavy on the vehicles and big hitters. Of course, a techmarine.

So this is what I've come up with to start, I'm completely new at building, and I did it pretty much all by myself, so please, any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Clan Haarmek, 5th Company

HQ:
Terminator Captain w Chainfist and combi-melta: 146pts
Techmarine w Power Sword and Storm-bolter: 63pts

Troops:
2x 10 man Tact Squads w Missile Launcher, Sgt with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword: 155pts ea
1x 10 man Tact Squad w Multi-melta, Sgt with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword: 157pts

Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad w Heavy Bolter, Sgt with Boltgun and Chainsword: 98pts
5 man Terminator Squad, Storm-Bolters and Chainfists: 192 pts
Venerable Dreadnought w Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer: 169pts

Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer w Flamestorm Cannon and Twin Assault Cannons: 348pts
2x Predators w Autocannon and Two Heavy Bolters: 150pts ea

Transports
3x Rhinos w Storm Bolters: 72pts ea

As you can see, not much CC, but that was by choice, I prefer the Hands to be a shoot first kind of chapter. If there's any cheese in here, or some forbidden unit or build I did, please don't hesitate to tell me, again I'm just getting back into it, and don't exactly know those unspoken rules. (Also, please ignore anything I've posted on here before this one, I was like, 13 when I posted it.)

Welcome back to the hobby man! I wouldn't worry about cheese or faux pas, the truth of the matter there are very few "pure" lists that are considered cheese these days.

First thing to note since you are getting back in. The places you want to check for modifications are the two Big FAQs, in April and recently in September, and Chapter Approved 2017. Those will contain any points changes. I'm not sure off the top of my head if anything you've got there was affected. But its worth checking. The FAQs are available on the GW Community Pages.

Some general things with respect to your list. The first thing I see is you have everything in one detachment, when you could easily split into two detachments. This would give you 1 additional Command Point, so can't argue with that. A Battalion Detachment is 2 HQs and 3 Troops. a Vanguard Detachment is 1 HQ and 3 Elites. So if you can squeeze one more HQ in your list, you could split into two different Iron Hands Detachments. Furthermore, a Spearhead Detachment is 1 HQ and 3 Heavy Supports. So a fourth HQ would let you field a Spearhead Detachment. Take a look at the Lieutenant. They are a cheap upgrade character that can let your re-roll 1s to wound, if you could fit a pair of them into your list somehow, it would let you field 3 different detachments and go from 8 CP to 10.

Some minor musings with respect to the list as I see them.

1) Captain. Sadly for the Space Marines, the wargear choices are really limited. The Thunder Hammer is significantly better than the Chain Fist, and you almost always want a Storm Shield because 3++ on your guy is very helpful. Also I am not a big fan of Terminator Armor due to the low maneuverability once on the ground. I would recommend a Jump Pack or a Bike. Remember he has that awesome re-roll 1s to hit aura. A Jump Pack or a Bike help him put that aura where you need it for the shooting phase. It also extends his threat range if he needs to bail your marines out from combat.

2) I would avoid taking a tech marine as an HQ choice. Its just not really worth it for what he brings. If you want to add that element to your Iron Hands however, consider taking a Thunder Fire Cannon. You still get your tech marine, and you get a pretty decent gun platform with a very helpful control stratagem.

3) Tactical Marines have some trouble these days. I wouldn't take a full compliment of 30 of them. Internet Wisdom is that Scouts are the troop choices du jour for Marines, especially with the board control options their infiltrate opens up for them. I would at least drop one squad of Tactical Marines for Scouts. They are a classic part of Space Marines, so its fair to want to include them in your list. That said, consider taking 2 squads of 5 with special weapons and a matching combi weapon on the sgt. That keeps their cost down, and lets you shave points in your list away from the weaker troops choices. It also gives you more flexibility.

On that point, I special weapons are generally going to be more useful to you than heavy weapons, since special weapons don't have move and fire penalties and often want to be in the same range as bolters do. Usually Plasma is recommended. So a 5 man squad with a Plasma Gun and a Sgt with a Combi Plasma.

In terms of heavy weapons I would avoid taking them on Tactical Marines as the opportunity cost of moving and shooting is pretty high and doesn't gel well with the rest of their options and the bolters the usual squad members are bearing. I would relegate heavy weapons to Devastator squads if able.

4) I would avoid taking special and heavy weapons on Sternguard and just take as many bodies as possible to leverage their special issue bolters which are very good and have a special strategem.

5) Terminators are sadly quite bad this edition. I would look into taking a different unit to save points. Its just an issue of costing too many points and dying too easily for what you pay for them, and not causing enough damage. If you want a Vanguard Detachment I would look to something like an Ancient.

6) Since you are playing Iron hands, I wouldn't take a Venerable Dread. Part of the allure of the Venerable Dread is the Feel no Pain 6++ which you get no benefit from due to your chapter tactics. I would look to either a Redemptor or Contemptor.

7) I would avoid taking a Land Raider. Land Raider's primary purpose is to deliver an assault unit into the Jaws of the enemy. This isn't what your list is designed to do. Instead I would take more classic Heavy Support Choices like a Devestator Squad- or the Thunder Fire Cannon Mentioned above.

One Heavy Support unit you shouldn't leave home without is a Devestator Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Heavy Bolter. This takes advantage of the Flakk Missile Strategem, the Hellfire Shells Strategem and the once per game and you can pair one of those strategems with the Cherub to shoot the weapon again.

8) With respect to your Rhinos. You can buy a second Storm Bolter for them. Its only 2 points so you might as well. It adds a good amount of firepower to the chasis.

Overall, it looks like a fun list, but there are definitely some tweaks i would make to it to streamline it a bit and bring you up to a more reasonable level of competition. You should be warned that Space Marines, especially regular Space Marines that are not abusing Guilliman are somewhat on the lower end of the power curve right now. Victory isn't unobtainable, but your comparative power is pretty low- even compared to other mono factions- especially Eldar. Still, with a solid list you can still have the units needed to play well and do okay in most environments.

The biggest thing I would recommend, is starting small. Play some 500 point games, build up to 750, up to 1000. Don't go all in at once for a 2000 point army. You will learn a lot as you play games, figure out what works for you and what doesn't. You will be a very different player 7 games in than you are right now just looking through the codex without a real understanding of how things actually play out on the table top. Starting with smaller games with a few basic units will let you figure out what you need and build much more capable lists.

If you want to go all in full bore 2000 points, you should let someone build the list for you and explain to you how it works.

 akaean wrote:
Welcome back to the hobby man! I wouldn't worry about cheese or faux pas, the truth of the matter there are very few "pure" lists that are considered cheese these days.

First thing to note since you are getting back in. The places you want to check for modifications are the two Big FAQs, in April and recently in September, and Chapter Approved 2017. Those will contain any points changes. I'm not sure off the top of my head if anything you've got there was affected. But its worth checking. The FAQs are available on the GW Community Pages.

Some general things with respect to your list. The first thing I see is you have everything in one detachment, when you could easily split into two detachments. This would give you 1 additional Command Point, so can't argue with that. A Battalion Detachment is 2 HQs and 3 Troops. a Vanguard Detachment is 1 HQ and 3 Elites. So if you can squeeze one more HQ in your list, you could split into two different Iron Hands Detachments. Furthermore, a Spearhead Detachment is 1 HQ and 3 Heavy Supports. So a fourth HQ would let you field a Spearhead Detachment. Take a look at the Lieutenant. They are a cheap upgrade character that can let your re-roll 1s to wound, if you could fit a pair of them into your list somehow, it would let you field 3 different detachments and go from 8 CP to 10.

Some minor musings with respect to the list as I see them.

1) Captain. Sadly for the Space Marines, the wargear choices are really limited. The Thunder Hammer is significantly better than the Chain Fist, and you almost always want a Storm Shield because 3++ on your guy is very helpful. Also I am not a big fan of Terminator Armor due to the low maneuverability once on the ground. I would recommend a Jump Pack or a Bike. Remember he has that awesome re-roll 1s to hit aura. A Jump Pack or a Bike help him put that aura where you need it for the shooting phase. It also extends his threat range if he needs to bail your marines out from combat.

2) I would avoid taking a tech marine as an HQ choice. Its just not really worth it for what he brings. If you want to add that element to your Iron Hands however, consider taking a Thunder Fire Cannon. You still get your tech marine, and you get a pretty decent gun platform with a very helpful control stratagem.

3) Tactical Marines have some trouble these days. I wouldn't take a full compliment of 30 of them. Internet Wisdom is that Scouts are the troop choices du jour for Marines, especially with the board control options their infiltrate opens up for them. I would at least drop one squad of Tactical Marines for Scouts. They are a classic part of Space Marines, so its fair to want to include them in your list. That said, consider taking 2 squads of 5 with special weapons and a matching combi weapon on the sgt. That keeps their cost down, and lets you shave points in your list away from the weaker troops choices. It also gives you more flexibility.

On that point, I special weapons are generally going to be more useful to you than heavy weapons, since special weapons don't have move and fire penalties and often want to be in the same range as bolters do. Usually Plasma is recommended. So a 5 man squad with a Plasma Gun and a Sgt with a Combi Plasma.

In terms of heavy weapons I would avoid taking them on Tactical Marines as the opportunity cost of moving and shooting is pretty high and doesn't gel well with the rest of their options and the bolters the usual squad members are bearing. I would relegate heavy weapons to Devastator squads if able.

4) I would avoid taking special and heavy weapons on Sternguard and just take as many bodies as possible to leverage their special issue bolters which are very good and have a special strategem.

5) Terminators are sadly quite bad this edition. I would look into taking a different unit to save points. Its just an issue of costing too many points and dying too easily for what you pay for them, and not causing enough damage. If you want a Vanguard Detachment I would look to something like an Ancient.

6) Since you are playing Iron hands, I wouldn't take a Venerable Dread. Part of the allure of the Venerable Dread is the Feel no Pain 6++ which you get no benefit from due to your chapter tactics. I would look to either a Redemptor or Contemptor.

7) I would avoid taking a Land Raider. Land Raider's primary purpose is to deliver an assault unit into the Jaws of the enemy. This isn't what your list is designed to do. Instead I would take more classic Heavy Support Choices like a Devestator Squad- or the Thunder Fire Cannon Mentioned above.

One Heavy Support unit you shouldn't leave home without is a Devestator Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Heavy Bolter. This takes advantage of the Flakk Missile Strategem, the Hellfire Shells Strategem and the once per game and you can pair one of those strategems with the Cherub to shoot the weapon again.

8) With respect to your Rhinos. You can buy a second Storm Bolter for them. Its only 2 points so you might as well. It adds a good amount of firepower to the chasis.

Overall, it looks like a fun list, but there are definitely some tweaks i would make to it to streamline it a bit and bring you up to a more reasonable level of competition. You should be warned that Space Marines, especially regular Space Marines that are not abusing Guilliman are somewhat on the lower end of the power curve right now. Victory isn't unobtainable, but your comparative power is pretty low- even compared to other mono factions- especially Eldar. Still, with a solid list you can still have the units needed to play well and do okay in most environments.

The biggest thing I would recommend, is starting small. Play some 500 point games, build up to 750, up to 1000. Don't go all in at once for a 2000 point army. You will learn a lot as you play games, figure out what works for you and what doesn't. You will be a very different player 7 games in than you are right now just looking through the codex without a real understanding of how things actually play out on the table top. Starting with smaller games with a few basic units will let you figure out what you need and build much more capable lists.

If you want to go all in full bore 2000 points, you should let someone build the list for you and explain to you how it works.

Wow, thanks so much! I'll definitely be tinkering with it, I hate to see that termy's aren't really viable anymore, I love the model, probably still get it tbh.

Damn though, you kinda tore down my HQ, is a captain w jump pack and 3 LTs a viable tactic? That way I get the Battalion, Vanguard, and Spearhead detachments?

On the point of troops, is dropping two squads completely and slashing the third to a 5 man and replacing them with veterans viable? Sorry, I know I'm throwing a lot at you, I just want to make sure I'm utilizing my army best as possible.

Now, lastly, if I follow through with some of these suggestions, I have enough points to look into fast attack, and I'm looking at a squadron of LS, one with a missile launcher, and two with heavy bolters. From some armies I've seen, LS look sparse and the few I have seen do not have missile launchers, are they dead like terminators too, or is this just coincidence. Their weapon choices are flexible as well, only that I would prefer one have a heavy bolter.

Damn though, you kinda tore down my HQ, is a captain w jump pack and 3 LTs a viable tactic? That way I get the Battalion, Vanguard, and Spearhead detachments?

I might be a heretic but generaly, the more CP you get the better, since in many cases enables strategies and armies generally profit from it.

Veterans i can't judge.

 ironhand45 wrote:


Wow, thanks so much! I'll definitely be tinkering with it, I hate to see that termy's aren't really viable anymore, I love the model, probably still get it tbh.

Damn though, you kinda tore down my HQ, is a captain w jump pack and 3 LTs a viable tactic? That way I get the Battalion, Vanguard, and Spearhead detachments?

On the point of troops, is dropping two squads completely and slashing the third to a 5 man and replacing them with veterans viable? Sorry, I know I'm throwing a lot at you, I just want to make sure I'm utilizing my army best as possible.

Now, lastly, if I follow through with some of these suggestions, I have enough points to look into fast attack, and I'm looking at a squadron of LS, one with a missile launcher, and two with heavy bolters. From some armies I've seen, LS look sparse and the few I have seen do not have missile launchers, are they dead like terminators too, or is this just coincidence. Their weapon choices are flexible as well, only that I would prefer one have a heavy bolter.

Yes, that HQ formation is viable, however I would probably take a Librarian instead of one of those Lieutenants. The psychic powers can be helpful, as well as being able to deny the witch against enemy psychics.

To your second point, you still absolutely want to have a battalion detachment because you cannot afford to lose those 5 CPs. So I would not recommend dropping down to a single troop squad. Rather I would probably pair down to some combination of 5 man tactical squads and 5 man scout squads to fill out the Battalion. You could consider Intercessors- Iron Hands field Primaris slightly better than other chapters because the 6++ gives you two chances to save your expensive two wound marines from being instant killed by all of the 2 damage weapons in the game. 6++ isn't great odds, but its better than nothing!

One other thing to consider, is if you pair your marines down to 5 men, consider taking a Rhino for your Sternguard and 2 Assault Cannon Razor Backs for your 5 man tac squads. Assault Cannon Razorbacks add a lot of shots!

I've seen people use land speeders okay, I can't comment too much on that though. They are somewhat fragile for how expensive they are, and they can't really move and shoot accurately which either wastes their firepower or their speed. Because they aren't infantry a bike or a dread they don't benefit from your Chapter Tactics either. So no 6++ for your speeders or other vehicles... too bad.

 akaean wrote:

 ironhand45 wrote:


Wow, thanks so much! I'll definitely be tinkering with it, I hate to see that termy's aren't really viable anymore, I love the model, probably still get it tbh.

Damn though, you kinda tore down my HQ, is a captain w jump pack and 3 LTs a viable tactic? That way I get the Battalion, Vanguard, and Spearhead detachments?

On the point of troops, is dropping two squads completely and slashing the third to a 5 man and replacing them with veterans viable? Sorry, I know I'm throwing a lot at you, I just want to make sure I'm utilizing my army best as possible.

Now, lastly, if I follow through with some of these suggestions, I have enough points to look into fast attack, and I'm looking at a squadron of LS, one with a missile launcher, and two with heavy bolters. From some armies I've seen, LS look sparse and the few I have seen do not have missile launchers, are they dead like terminators too, or is this just coincidence. Their weapon choices are flexible as well, only that I would prefer one have a heavy bolter.

Yes, that HQ formation is viable, however I would probably take a Librarian instead of one of those Lieutenants. The psychic powers can be helpful, as well as being able to deny the witch against enemy psychics.

To your second point, you still absolutely want to have a battalion detachment because you cannot afford to lose those 5 CPs. So I would not recommend dropping down to a single troop squad. Rather I would probably pair down to some combination of 5 man tactical squads and 5 man scout squads to fill out the Battalion. You could consider Intercessors- Iron Hands field Primaris slightly better than other chapters because the 6++ gives you two chances to save your expensive two wound marines from being instant killed by all of the 2 damage weapons in the game. 6++ isn't great odds, but its better than nothing!

One other thing to consider, is if you pair your marines down to 5 men, consider taking a Rhino for your Sternguard and 2 Assault Cannon Razor Backs for your 5 man tac squads. Assault Cannon Razorbacks add a lot of shots!

I've seen people use land speeders okay, I can't comment too much on that though. They are somewhat fragile for how expensive they are, and they can't really move and shoot accurately which either wastes their firepower or their speed. Because they aren't infantry a bike or a dread they don't benefit from your Chapter Tactics either. So no 6++ for your speeders or other vehicles... too bad.

Damn they really did just kinda nerf SM. But right after i sent this, i messed around a bit more and still have 3 troops, one tact and two scouts, one with boltguns and one with snipers. I think i am going to switch the tact with the intercessors just to have some what of a better option.

After I finish my tweaking, however, I'm at about 1750, and to fill it out to 2000, I've got a couple choices; are vindicators still not worth it? Or should I fill that HS slot with another dev squad? I know for a fact I'm adding an assault bike squad.