The Emperor's actions during the Great Crusade

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**Onething123456**

Sterling191 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

Its not. I just think a lot of what I heard about the Crusade Imperim is at least exaggerated.

You're really putting all your money on "the galaxy spanning multi-century campaign of conquest and genocide was a little exaggerated"?

For feth's sake.

And you still have not proven most of the genocide part. Almost all aliens during the Crusade were hostile. Horus notes that the Interex was the first time he had seen alien co existence, and there were other Legions with them. They also found the Interex near the end of the Great Crusade. I only saw one link from Forgeworld that was in anyway proof of me being wrong.

Sorry if this is annoying, but I'm just not convinced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moreover, my quote from Age of Darkness for this thread shows that what Angron did horrified other Legions and was considered abhorrent.

**Sterling191**

Onething123456 wrote:

And you still have not proven most of the genocide part. Almost all aliens during the Crusade were hostile. Horus notes that the Interex was the first time he had seen alien co existence, and there were other Legions with them. They also found the Interex near the end of the Great Crusade. I only saw one link from Forgeworld that was in anyway proof of me being wrong.

Sorry if this is annoying, but I'm just not convinced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moreover, my quote from Age of Darkness for this thread shows that what Angron did horrified other Legions and was considered abhorrent.

So the Ragnan GENOCIDES were just what, remodeling? Entire planetary populations who refused Compliance weren't massacred because they chose to fight, necessitating delpoyments of MILLIONS of soldiers and warships?

I get that you have a hard on for fascism, but this is just ridiculous. The Emperor starts the bloody war. Of course everyone and everything that he's trying to conquer is hostile to the great glorious empire of mankind.

**Nurglitch**

Wasn't the plan to exterminate the Legions once they'd fulfilled their mission? And it strikes me that the Emperor saw the kind of fratricide that disposing of the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and whomever as a perk rather than a bug.

**epronovost**

@Onething123456

The Emperor and the Imperium was a maniacal and bloodthirsty regime from its inception. If you read the First Heretic, you have, in my opinion the prime example of that. Lorgar was slow to conquer because he liked to raise churches and temples dedicated to his father on the world he conquered. His pace was thus very slow, but the world he earned compliance from where very prosperous and fanatically loyal. To punish him, not only for his religious beleifs, but also for his slow pace, he ordered Lorgar and his legion to kneel before him in humiliation and ordered Guilliman and his legion to destroy his most prosperous planet, murdering billions of innocent people to "teach Lorgar a lesson". Guilliman was rewarded for dropping nukes on hives filed with people who had done nothing wrong and were not even about to fight. Later, The Emperor, in a twist of irony, would sanction his own worship as a God and reward those who would do the same thing for which he sanctioned Lorgar and butchered entire planets. In the same book, after their humiliation, the Word Bearer exterminated a population because they used gene edditing to cure themselves from a disease and that made their DNA slightly different than humans even thow both groups were identical.

The Imperium is a theocratic necrocratic dictatorship (there is no senate, the Emperor is both a god and functionally dead yet still at the helm of the Imeperium, the High Lords of Terra aren't elected); a society of Orders instead of classes (nobles, slaves, free subjects, etc); it's viciously militaristic and nationalist (Imperium vs everybod else is horrible); it's a eugenic society where mutants and abhumans are oppressed at best or exterminated (see the Inquisition and mutant purges); it has design of galactic conquest and genocide of all xenos (see the Emperors own declaration of the Grand Crusade); it revers violence and hatred as prime virtue (my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, my armor is contempt); it's trials are unfair (see Inquisition). In my opinion, this regime is pretty much the complete anti-thesis of a modern liberal social democracy and that's the point. The Imperium is a dystopian regime described by GW as the most bloodthirsty and insane regime possibly imaginable.

**HoundsofDemos**

Nurglitch wrote:
Wasn't the plan to exterminate the Legions once they'd fulfilled their mission? And it strikes me that the Emperor saw the kind of fratricide that disposing of the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and whomever as a perk rather than a bug.

It's strongly implied that they would be phased out over time, though how and when was something that likely would have been very depended on the Primarch and Legion in question. I'd imagine that the Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Fists and Space Wolves would have been some of the last to go.

**Dakka Wolf**

He disposed of the Thunder Warriors who didn’t die on time. Even hunted them to get the job done. Pretty sure the legions were supposed to stay and keep the peace but I can’t remember where I read that, might have been told even.

**Sterling191**

HoundsofDemos wrote:

It's strongly implied that they would be phased out over time, though how and when was something that likely would have been very depended on the Primarch and Legion in question. I'd imagine that the Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Fists and Space Wolves would have been some of the last to go.

"Phased out" just like the Thunder Warriors, or how the Navigators were going to be rounded up and exterminated after the Webway project was complete.

**Onething123456**

Nurglitch wrote:
Wasn't the plan to exterminate the Legions once they'd fulfilled their mission? And it strikes me that the Emperor saw the kind of fratricide that disposing of the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and whomever as a perk rather than a bug.

I do not think so. I do not think it says that anywhere.

**HoundsofDemos**

I don't remember what book it was in but I recall Corax (99 percent sure on this ) Finding a bunch of rooms in the Imperial Palace that were tailored made for each of the primarchs. The Implication being that at least some of them were getting put into gilded cages at some point. I don't think he was going to kill or retire all of them of them but at least a few were probably either gonna be put down or sent on a one way out of galaxy trip. The only one we know for sure is that Magnus had the grand destiny of being a warp battery and was meant to spend the rest of his life on the Golden Throne.

**BrianDavion**

And in First Lord of the Imperium (they need to put that audio story into printed form sometime) Malcador outright says that the Heresy was planned all along, and it just happened slightly earlier then expected.

**locarno24**

Sterling191 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

And you still have not proven most of the genocide part. Almost all aliens during the Crusade were hostile. Horus notes that the Interex was the first time he had seen alien co existence, and there were other Legions with them. They also found the Interex near the end of the Great Crusade. I only saw one link from Forgeworld that was in anyway proof of me being wrong.

Sorry if this is annoying, but I'm just not convinced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moreover, my quote from Age of Darkness for this thread shows that what Angron did horrified other Legions and was considered abhorrent.

So the Ragnan GENOCIDES were just what, remodeling? Entire planetary populations who refused Compliance weren't massacred because they chose to fight, necessitating delpoyments of MILLIONS of soldiers and warships?

I get that you have a hard on for fascism, but this is just ridiculous. The Emperor starts the bloody war. Of course everyone and everything that he's trying to conquer is hostile to the great glorious empire of mankind.

If this is the Rangadan massacres, whilst I'm not defending the emperor, that wasn't just a compliance issue - that was trying to root out the Slaugth, who (unlike, say, the Interex) really are every nasty thing the imperium has ever accused xenos of being. Their nasty habit of wearing people suits meant that 'burn them all' would often be the only way to make sure.

By comparison - the censure of the world eaters - in any substansive way, anyway - has only ever been shown as 'the night of the wolf', which, however 'recorded' history paints it, was (from Russ' reaction when his bluff is called in Betrayer) pretty much entirely something the wolf king did off his own bat with no official backing at all.

**Haighus**

There are loads of Emperor-sanctioned atrocities. Look in the spoiler for examples:

Spoiler:

Imperial brutality during the Great Crusade is not uncommon, and is practised by the Emperor himself and Primarchs on both sides of the eventual divide, including several of the most "noble" Primarchs (Sanguinius, Vulkan, pre-Laer Fulgrim, pre-Davin Horus). The Emperor only provides token censure, or actively rewards the forces and Primarchs carrying out such actions. At least a third of the known Imperial actions against non-compliant human populations seem to involve atrocities against civilians, and there are a few high-profile examples against loyal citizens.

There is no way the Emperor is not a genocidal tyrant. He was in overall command of these forces, provided ineffective oversight to prevent the worst excesses, and ordered several of them directly himself. Whether such actions are justified within the crazy context of Warhammer 30k/40k is irrelevant- these are still the actions of a genocidal tyrant!

epronovost wrote:
The Imperium is a theocratic necrocratic dictatorship (there is no senate, the Emperor is both a god and functionally dead yet still at the helm of the Imeperium, the High Lords of Terra aren't elected); a society of Orders instead of classes (nobles, slaves, free subjects, etc); it's viciously militaristic and nationalist (Imperium vs everybod else is horrible); it's a eugenic society where mutants and abhumans are oppressed at best or exterminated (see the Inquisition and mutant purges); it has design of galactic conquest and genocide of all xenos (see the Emperors own declaration of the Grand Crusade); it revers violence and hatred as prime virtue (my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, my armor is contempt); it's trials are unfair (see Inquisition). In my opinion, this regime is pretty much the complete anti-thesis of a modern liberal social democracy and that's the point. The Imperium is a dystopian regime described by GW as the most bloodthirsty and insane regime possibly imaginable.

Small quibble. It is not entirely clear how the High Lords are selected, but there is an Imperial senate, and some High Lords are selected from members of said senate (possibly by election, although it seems highly corrupt). Some other members are permanent due to the importance of their organisations, although how they come to lead those organisations is, again, unclear (this may also include elections of a kind, and probably does for roles like the Inquisitorial Representative).

I think the most accurate descriptor of the Imperial political system is a central fascistic oligarchy controlling a vast feudal empire, with a nominal monarch. Individual planets can have whatever political system they like, so long as a governor is answerable to the wider Imperium, and follows the Imperial laws.

**Crimson**

The High Lords are the Senatorum Imperialis, it is the same thing.

**Onething123456**

Haighus wrote:
There are loads of Emperor-sanctioned atrocities. Look in the spoiler for examples:

Spoiler:

The Emperor directly plans and enacts destruction of the surviving (loyal) Thunder Warriors at Mount Ararat (mentioned in the Outcast Dead)

The 1st Pacification of Luna, a seperate society invaded by the Emperor (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

The Rangdan Xenocides: "What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of purges that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory." (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Fall of the Lords of Gardinaal, Ferrus Manus orders entire cities wiped out from orbit to force compliance. During the final assaults, the unconditional surrender of Gardinaal was rejected and civilians and fleeing soldiers alike were mercilessly killed (Horus Heresy: Book 2)

Conquest of Galaspar (already mentioned), Mortarian's first war in command of his Legion: "Galaspar's primary hive fell in a night and a day, the Death Guard killing any man, woman, or child who stood before them." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Proximan Betrayal, the Emperor is nearly killed by rebels on the newly compliant world- after escaping the ENTIRE planet is subjected to exterminatus, and the Emperor's Children are awarded the honour of wearing the Emperor's personal symbol (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Delsvaan Campaign, after capturing a major city in a vicious shock-assault, under the direct command of the Emperor, the VIth Legion (later the Space Wolves) perform a "great massacre" in the city, resulting in the surrender of the rest of the planet (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn. However Curze's terror campaign proved successful, and resistance collapsed bloodlessly shortly after. After the campaign, the surviving population was herded into camps designated for Xenos collaborators vs. non-collaborator." (Vulkan Lives)

Ghenna Massacre: "After the Imperial Commander on Ghenna rebelled against the Emperor, the crazed warriors of the World Eaters led by Angron himself descended on the planet. In a single night of incredible bloodshed, the entire planetary population was wiped out." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Conquest of One-Five-Four-Four, Vulkan (the Primarch most protective of humans) ordered human collaborators with the Eldar on the planet wiped out following Eldar withdrawal, to keep the collaboration secret (Promethean Sun)

Castigation of Terentius: "With their leader dead, Terentius' rebellion crumbled. However Horus, his pride slighted, acted uncharacteristically harsh and ordered the Night Lords, Iron Hands, and Ordo Reductor to decimate every one of the remaining rebel worlds." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Battle of Byzanthis: "Afterwards Astelan was still determined to pursue a diplomatic mission, and engaged with emissaries of the Byzanthis government known as the Committee of Nations. Negotiations were underway until Belath teleported directly into the session with a Terminator retinue, who subsequently massacred the Byzanthis delegation." (Tales of Heresy- Call the Lion)

Extermination of the Adryantis Cluster, carried out under the command of Sanguinius: "The Primarch then stated that though he knew there were innocent people within the Cluster, they would not be spared from the Blood Angels' campaign to exterminate the Adryantis Cluster's population." (Horus Heresy: Book 6)

Sacking of Monarchia (already mentioned), the Emperor personally orders the killing of an entire planet of misguided but loyal citizens, solely to teach Lorgar a lesson (The First Heretic)

Battle of 47-16, Lorgar orders the destruction of an entire planet willing to join the Imperium's fold, done in part to show his loyalty to the Emperor's instructions (The First Heretic)

Destruction of the Diasporex, a peaceful xenos-human coalition, by the Iron Hands and Emperor's Children under Fulgrim, "The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone"" (Fulgrim)

Interex Conflict, a peaceful alien-human coalition willing to remain cordial with the Imperium, Horus intended to destroy them as soon as their xenos-collaboration was determined to be incontrovertible- ultimately destroyed sometime before the war against the Auretian Technocracy (Horus Rising)

Auretian Technocracy War, a human world attacked during negotiations to join the Imperium, and the final assault described as: "The battle was noted for its brutality, as the World Eaters under Angron slaughtered soldier and civilian alike." (False Gods)

Imperial brutality during the Great Crusade is not uncommon, and is practised by the Emperor himself and Primarchs on both sides of the eventual divide, including several of the most "noble" Primarchs (Sanguinius, Vulkan, pre-Laer Fulgrim, pre-Davin Horus). The Emperor only provides token censure, or actively rewards the forces and Primarchs carrying out such actions. At least a third of the known Imperial actions against non-compliant human populations seem to involve atrocities against civilians, and there are a few high-profile examples against loyal citizens.

There is no way the Emperor is not a genocidal tyrant. He was in overall command of these forces, provided ineffective oversight to prevent the worst excesses, and ordered several of them directly himself. Whether such actions are justified within the crazy context of Warhammer 30k/40k is irrelevant- these are still the actions of a genocidal tyrant!

epronovost wrote:
The Imperium is a theocratic necrocratic dictatorship (there is no senate, the Emperor is both a god and functionally dead yet still at the helm of the Imeperium, the High Lords of Terra aren't elected); a society of Orders instead of classes (nobles, slaves, free subjects, etc); it's viciously militaristic and nationalist (Imperium vs everybod else is horrible); it's a eugenic society where mutants and abhumans are oppressed at best or exterminated (see the Inquisition and mutant purges); it has design of galactic conquest and genocide of all xenos (see the Emperors own declaration of the Grand Crusade); it revers violence and hatred as prime virtue (my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, my armor is contempt); it's trials are unfair (see Inquisition). In my opinion, this regime is pretty much the complete anti-thesis of a modern liberal social democracy and that's the point. The Imperium is a dystopian regime described by GW as the most bloodthirsty and insane regime possibly imaginable.

Small quibble. It is not entirely clear how the High Lords are selected, but there is an Imperial senate, and some High Lords are selected from members of said senate (possibly by election, although it seems highly corrupt). Some other members are permanent due to the importance of their organisations, although how they come to lead those organisations is, again, unclear (this may also include elections of a kind, and probably does for roles like the Inquisitorial Representative).

I think the most accurate descriptor of the Imperial political system is a central fascistic oligarchy controlling a vast feudal empire, with a nominal monarch. Individual planets can have whatever political system they like, so long as a governor is answerable to the wider Imperium, and follows the Imperial laws.

The Rangdan Xenocides were hostile aliens. Get your facts straight.

Horus was talkig with the Interex, and Erebus ruined it by stealing a Chaos artifact from the Interex.

The Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus.

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn

Vulkan reported him.

A lot of what you said is out context. And guess what? The Council of Terra on page 28 in the Fulgrim book thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's, not because they were aliens.

And look.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre

"In the aftermath of the massacre the Emperor was forced to act and called Angron before him for reprimand..."

Most of what you said is out of context.

I count at least five, and I'm still reading.

Horus Rising said:
'You have no choice!' Abaddon snarled. 'We have seen enough already to know that their ways are in opposition to ours! You must-'
'Must?' Horus roared. 'Must I? You are Mournival, Abaddon! You advise and you counsel, and that is your place! Do not imagine you can tell me what to do!'
'I don't have to! There is no choice, and you know what must be done!'
'Get out!'
'You know it in your heart!'
'Get out!' Horus yelled, and cast aside his drinking cup with such force that it shattered on the steel deck. He glared at Abaddon, teeth clenched. 'Get out, Ezekyle, before I look to find another first captain!'
[...]
Aximand cleared his throat. 'Ezekyle had... a point,' he began. He stiffened as he saw the Warmaster raise his eyebrows.
'Go on, little one.'
'We... that is to say... we prosecute this crusade according to certain doctrines. For two centuries, we have done so. Laws of life, laws on which the Imperium is founded. They are not arbitrary. They were given to us, to uphold, by the Emperor himself.'
'Beloved of all,' Horus said.
'The Emperor's doctrines have guided us since the start. We have never disobeyed them.' Aximand paused, then added, 'Before.'
'You think this is disobedience, little one?' Horus asked. Aximand shrugged. 'What about you, Garviel?' Horus asked. 'Are you with Aximand on this?'
Loken looked back into the Warmaster's eyes. 'I know why we ought to make war upon the interex, sir,' he said. 'What interests me is why you think we shouldn't.'
Horus smiled. 'At last, a thinking man.' He rose to his feet and, carrying his cup carefully, walked across to the right-hand wall of the stateroom, a section of which had been richly decorated with a mural. The painting showed the Emperor, ascendant above all, catching the spinning constellations in his outstretched hand. 'The stars,' Horus said. 'See, there? How he scoops them up? The zodiacs swirl into his grasp like fireflies. The stars are mankind's birthright. That's what he told me. That's one of the first things he told me when we met. I was like a child then, raised up from nothing. He set me at his side, and pointed to the heavens. Those points of light, he said, are what we have been waiting generations to master. Imagine, Horus, every one a human culture, every one a realm of beauty and magnificence, free from strife, free from war, free from bloodshed and the tyrannous oppression of alien overlords. Make no mistake, he said, and they will be ours.'
Horus slowly traced his fingers across the whorl of painted stars until his hand met the image of the Emperor's hand. He took his touch away and looked back at Aximand and Loken.
[...]
'I'll tell you a thing,' said Horus, walking back to them and resuming his seat. 'The first thing my father gave me was an astrological text. It was a simple thing, a child's primer. I have it here somewhere. He noted my wonder at the stars, and wished me to learn and understand.'
He paused. Loken was also captivated whenever Horus began to refer to the Emperor as 'my father'. It had happened a few times since Loken had been part of his inner circle, and on every occasion it had led to unguarded revelations.
There were zodiac charts in it. In the text.’ Horus took a sip of his wine and smiled at the memory. 'I learned them all. In one evening. Not just the names, but the patterns, the associations, the structure. All twenty signs. The next day, my father laughed at my appetite for knowledge. He told me the zodiac signs were old and unreliable models, now that the explorator fleets had begun detailed cosmological mapping. He told me that the twenty signs in the heavens would one day be matched by twenty sons like me. Each son would embody the character and notion of a particular zodiac group. He asked me which one I liked the best.’ 'What did you answer?' Loken asked. Horus sat back, and chuckled. 'I told him I liked all the patterns they made. I told him I was glad to finally have names for the sparks of light in the sky. I told him I liked Leos, naturally for his regal fury and Skorpos, for his armour and warlike blade. I told him that Tauromach appealed to my sense of stubbornness, and Arbitos to my sense of fairness and balance.’ The Warmaster shook his head, sadly. 'My father said he admired my choices, but was surprised I had not picked another in particular. He showed me again the horseman with the bow, the galloping warrior. The dreadful Sagittary, he said. Most warlike of all. Strong, relentless, unbridled, swift and sure of his mark. In ancient times, he told me, this was the greatest sign of all. The centaur, the horse-man, the hunter-warrior, had been beloved in the old ages. In Anatoly in his own childhood, the centaur had been a revered symbol. A rider upon a horse, so he said, armed with a bow. The most potent martial instrument of its age, conquering all before it. Over time, myth had blended horseman and steed into one form. The perfect synthesis of man and war machine. That is what you must learn to be, he told me. That is what you must master. One day, you must command my armies, my instruments of war, as if they were an extension of your own person. Man and horse, as one, galloping the heavens, submitting to no foe. At Ullanor, he gave me this.’
Horus set down his cup, and leaned forward to show them the weathered gold ring he wore on the smallest finger of his left hand. It was so eroded by age that the image was indistinct. Loken thought he could detect hooves, a man's arm, a bent bow.
'It was made in Persia, the year before the Emperor was born. The dreadful Sagittary. This is you now, he said to me. My Warmaster, my centaur. Half man, half army embedded in the Legions of the Imperium. Where you turn, so the Legions turn. Where you move, so they move. Where you strike, so they strike. Ride on without me, my son, and the armies will ride with you.’ There was a long silence. 'So you see.’ Horus smiled. 'I am predisposed to like the dreadful Sagittary, now we meet him, face to face.’
His smile was infectious. Both Loken and Aximand nodded and laughed. 'Now tell them the real reason.’ a voice said. They turned. Sanguineus stood in an archway at the far end of the chamber, behind a veil of white silk. He had been listening. The Lord of Angels brushed the silk hanging aside, and stepped into the stateroom, the crests of his wings brushing the glossy material. He was dressed in a simple white robe, clasped at the waist with a girdle of gold links. He was eating fruit from a bowl. Loken and Aximand stood up quickly. 'Sit down.’ Sanguinius said. 'My brother's in the mood to open his heart, so you had better hear the truth.’
'I don't believe-' Horus began. Sanguinius scooped one of the small, red fruits from his bowl and threw it at Horus.
Tell them the rest.’ he sniggered.
Horus caught the thrown fruit, gazed at it, then bit into it. He wiped the juice off his chin with the back of his hand and looked across at Loken and Aximand.
'Remember the start of my story?' he asked. What the Emperor said to me about the stars? Make no mistake, and they will be ours!
He took another two bites, threw the fruit stone away, and swallowed the flesh before he continued. 'Sanguinius, my dear brother, is right, for Sanguinius has always been my conscience.’
Sanguinius shrugged, an odd gesture for a giant with furled wings.
'Make no mistake' Horus continued. Those three words. Make no mistake. I am Warmaster, by the Emperor's decree. I cannot fail him. I cannot make mistakes.’
'Sir?' Aximand ventured.
'Since Ullanor, little one, I have made two. Or been party to two, and that is enough, for the responsibility for all expedition mistakes falls to me in the final count.’
What mistakes?' asked Loken.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
'I don't believe he would.’ Aximand said.
Then there's Murder.’ Horus continued, ignoring Little Horus's remark. 'Or Spiderland, as the interex has it. What is the way of their name for it again?'
'Urisarach.’ Sanguinius said, helpfully. 'Though I think the word only works with the appropriate harmonic accompaniment.’
'Spiderland will suffice, then.’ said Horus. 'What did we waste there? What misunderstandings did we make? The interex left us warnings to stay away, and we ignored them. An embargoed world, an asylum for the creatures they had bested in war, and we walked straight in.’
'We weren't to know.’ Sanguinius said.
'We should have known!' Horus snapped.
'Therein lies the difference between our philosophy and that of the interex.’ Aximand said. "We cannot endure the existence of a malign alien race. They subjugate it, but refrain from annihilating it. Instead, they deprive it of space travel and exile it to a prison world.'
'We annihilate.' said Horus. 'They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?'
Aximand rose to his feet. 'I find myself with Ezekyle on this. Tolerance is weakness. The interex is admirable, but it is forgiving and generous in its dealings with xenos breeds who deserve no quarter.’
'It has brought them to book, and learned to live in sympathy.’ said Horus. 'It has trained the kinebrach to-'
'And that's the best example I can offer!' Aximand replied. The kinebrach. It embraces them as part of its culture.’
'I will not make another rash or premature decision.’ Horus stated flatly. 'I have made too many, and my War-mastery is threatened by my mistakes. I will understand the interex, and learn from it, and parlay with it, and only then will I decide if it has strayed too far. They are a fine people. Perhaps we can learn from them for a change.’

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rangdan_Xenocides

For the conquest of Galaspar, they opened fire on Imperial envoys and negotiators.

**Haighus**

Onething123456 wrote:

Spoiler:

Haighus wrote:
There are loads of Emperor-sanctioned atrocities. Look in the spoiler for examples: The Emperor directly plans and enacts destruction of the surviving (loyal) Thunder Warriors at Mount Ararat (mentioned in the Outcast Dead)

The 1st Pacification of Luna, a seperate society invaded by the Emperor (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

The Rangdan Xenocides: "What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of purges that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory." (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Fall of the Lords of Gardinaal, Ferrus Manus orders entire cities wiped out from orbit to force compliance. During the final assaults, the unconditional surrender of Gardinaal was rejected and civilians and fleeing soldiers alike were mercilessly killed (Horus Heresy: Book 2)

Conquest of Galaspar (already mentioned), Mortarian's first war in command of his Legion: "Galaspar's primary hive fell in a night and a day, the Death Guard killing any man, woman, or child who stood before them." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Proximan Betrayal, the Emperor is nearly killed by rebels on the newly compliant world- after escaping the ENTIRE planet is subjected to exterminatus, and the Emperor's Children are awarded the honour of wearing the Emperor's personal symbol (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Delsvaan Campaign, after capturing a major city in a vicious shock-assault, under the direct command of the Emperor, the VIth Legion (later the Space Wolves) perform a "great massacre" in the city, resulting in the surrender of the rest of the planet (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn. However Curze's terror campaign proved successful, and resistance collapsed bloodlessly shortly after. After the campaign, the surviving population was herded into camps designated for Xenos collaborators vs. non-collaborator." (Vulkan Lives)

Ghenna Massacre: "After the Imperial Commander on Ghenna rebelled against the Emperor, the crazed warriors of the World Eaters led by Angron himself descended on the planet. In a single night of incredible bloodshed, the entire planetary population was wiped out." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Conquest of One-Five-Four-Four, Vulkan (the Primarch most protective of humans) ordered human collaborators with the Eldar on the planet wiped out following Eldar withdrawal, to keep the collaboration secret (Promethean Sun)

Castigation of Terentius: "With their leader dead, Terentius' rebellion crumbled. However Horus, his pride slighted, acted uncharacteristically harsh and ordered the Night Lords, Iron Hands, and Ordo Reductor to decimate every one of the remaining rebel worlds." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Battle of Byzanthis: "Afterwards Astelan was still determined to pursue a diplomatic mission, and engaged with emissaries of the Byzanthis government known as the Committee of Nations. Negotiations were underway until Belath teleported directly into the session with a Terminator retinue, who subsequently massacred the Byzanthis delegation." (Tales of Heresy- Call the Lion)

Extermination of the Adryantis Cluster, carried out under the command of Sanguinius: "The Primarch then stated that though he knew there were innocent people within the Cluster, they would not be spared from the Blood Angels' campaign to exterminate the Adryantis Cluster's population." (Horus Heresy: Book 6)

Sacking of Monarchia (already mentioned), the Emperor personally orders the killing of an entire planet of misguided but loyal citizens, solely to teach Lorgar a lesson (The First Heretic)

Battle of 47-16, Lorgar orders the destruction of an entire planet willing to join the Imperium's fold, done in part to show his loyalty to the Emperor's instructions (The First Heretic)

Destruction of the Diasporex, a peaceful xenos-human coalition, by the Iron Hands and Emperor's Children under Fulgrim, "The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone"" (Fulgrim)

Interex Conflict, a peaceful alien-human coalition willing to remain cordial with the Imperium, Horus intended to destroy them as soon as their xenos-collaboration was determined to be incontrovertible- ultimately destroyed sometime before the war against the Auretian Technocracy (Horus Rising)

Auretian Technocracy War, a human world attacked during negotiations to join the Imperium, and the final assault described as: "The battle was noted for its brutality, as the World Eaters under Angron slaughtered soldier and civilian alike." (False Gods)

Imperial brutality during the Great Crusade is not uncommon, and is practised by the Emperor himself and Primarchs on both sides of the eventual divide, including several of the most "noble" Primarchs (Sanguinius, Vulkan, pre-Laer Fulgrim, pre-Davin Horus). The Emperor only provides token censure, or actively rewards the forces and Primarchs carrying out such actions. At least a third of the known Imperial actions against non-compliant human populations seem to involve atrocities against civilians, and there are a few high-profile examples against loyal citizens.

There is no way the Emperor is not a genocidal tyrant. He was in overall command of these forces, provided ineffective oversight to prevent the worst excesses, and ordered several of them directly himself. Whether such actions are justified within the crazy context of Warhammer 30k/40k is irrelevant- these are still the actions of a genocidal tyrant!

epronovost wrote:
The Imperium is a theocratic necrocratic dictatorship (there is no senate, the Emperor is both a god and functionally dead yet still at the helm of the Imeperium, the High Lords of Terra aren't elected); a society of Orders instead of classes (nobles, slaves, free subjects, etc); it's viciously militaristic and nationalist (Imperium vs everybod else is horrible); it's a eugenic society where mutants and abhumans are oppressed at best or exterminated (see the Inquisition and mutant purges); it has design of galactic conquest and genocide of all xenos (see the Emperors own declaration of the Grand Crusade); it revers violence and hatred as prime virtue (my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, my armor is contempt); it's trials are unfair (see Inquisition). In my opinion, this regime is pretty much the complete anti-thesis of a modern liberal social democracy and that's the point. The Imperium is a dystopian regime described by GW as the most bloodthirsty and insane regime possibly imaginable.

Small quibble. It is not entirely clear how the High Lords are selected, but there is an Imperial senate, and some High Lords are selected from members of said senate (possibly by election, although it seems highly corrupt). Some other members are permanent due to the importance of their organisations, although how they come to lead those organisations is, again, unclear (this may also include elections of a kind, and probably does for roles like the Inquisitorial Representative).

I think the most accurate descriptor of the Imperial political system is a central fascistic oligarchy controlling a vast feudal empire, with a nominal monarch. Individual planets can have whatever political system they like, so long as a governor is answerable to the wider Imperium, and follows the Imperial laws.

The Rangdan Xenocides were hostile aliens. Get your facts straight.

Horus was talkig with the Interex, and Erebus ruined it by stealing a Chaos artifact from the Interex.

The Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus.

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn

Vulkan reported him.

A lot of what you said is out context. And guess what? The Council of Terra on page 28 in the Fulgrim book thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (and Fulgrim rejected because they hdle their beleifs to be comparable to humanity's ,not because they were aliens.

And look.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre

"In the aftermath of the massacre the Emperor was forced to act and called Angron before him for reprimand..."

Most of what you said is out of context.

You ignored more than half of the list, including those by the "nice" Primarchs. Yes, some of them are out of context, but they all include Imperial atrocities.

Note that the bit I quoted about the Rangdan Xenocides was after the xenos were defeated. This was punitive purges following the war to remove any possibility of lingering enemies hiding in otherwise innocent human populations. Cearly they failed, because Slaught exist in 40k.

Horus was talking with the Interex, but there is no doubt he saw their alien collaboration as incompatible with Imperial values. The aliens were to be exterminated one way or another, and the humans with them if they resisted. Erbus' treachery is irrelevant to the aims of Horus.

I mentioned the Technocracy primarily for Angron, who was not Chaos tainted yet. As this war was right before the Horus Heresy, I am fairly sure this also happened after he was censured by the Emperor through Leman Russ following the Ghenna Massacre, so clearly that DIDN'T WORK..

Curze was reported, and nothing happened. He was allowed to continue operating in the way he did until the very end of the Great Crusade, by which point it was too late, the Horus Heresy allowed him to escape.

One almost good deed in the Laer does not undo all the other genocides and xenocides... Those killings still happened.

You've still cherry picked a handful of examples out of the enormous list. Most of them are not ambiguous- Imperial forces frequently displayed excessive force against non-compliant planets "to send a warning". They deliberately used terror threats based in massacring civilians.

Crimson wrote:The High Lords are the Senatorum Imperialis, it is the same thing.

"The Senatorum itself is composed of tens of thousands of Imperial dignitaries, nobleman, lords, and other officials, but these rarely meet and instead the "High Twelve" conduct the vast majority of affairs." There is a body of officials, but the High Lords essentially act as an executive.

**Onething123456**

Spoiler:

Haighus wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Haighus wrote:
There are loads of Emperor-sanctioned atrocities. Look in the spoiler for examples: [spoiler]The Emperor directly plans and enacts destruction of the surviving (loyal) Thunder Warriors at Mount Ararat (mentioned in the Outcast Dead)

The 1st Pacification of Luna, a seperate society invaded by the Emperor (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

The Rangdan Xenocides: "What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of purges that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory." (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Fall of the Lords of Gardinaal, Ferrus Manus orders entire cities wiped out from orbit to force compliance. During the final assaults, the unconditional surrender of Gardinaal was rejected and civilians and fleeing soldiers alike were mercilessly killed (Horus Heresy: Book 2)

Conquest of Galaspar (already mentioned), Mortarian's first war in command of his Legion: "Galaspar's primary hive fell in a night and a day, the Death Guard killing any man, woman, or child who stood before them." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Proximan Betrayal, the Emperor is nearly killed by rebels on the newly compliant world- after escaping the ENTIRE planet is subjected to exterminatus, and the Emperor's Children are awarded the honour of wearing the Emperor's personal symbol (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Delsvaan Campaign, after capturing a major city in a vicious shock-assault, under the direct command of the Emperor, the VIth Legion (later the Space Wolves) perform a "great massacre" in the city, resulting in the surrender of the rest of the planet (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn. However Curze's terror campaign proved successful, and resistance collapsed bloodlessly shortly after. After the campaign, the surviving population was herded into camps designated for Xenos collaborators vs. non-collaborator." (Vulkan Lives)

Ghenna Massacre: "After the Imperial Commander on Ghenna rebelled against the Emperor, the crazed warriors of the World Eaters led by Angron himself descended on the planet. In a single night of incredible bloodshed, the entire planetary population was wiped out." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Conquest of One-Five-Four-Four, Vulkan (the Primarch most protective of humans) ordered human collaborators with the Eldar on the planet wiped out following Eldar withdrawal, to keep the collaboration secret (Promethean Sun)

Castigation of Terentius: "With their leader dead, Terentius' rebellion crumbled. However Horus, his pride slighted, acted uncharacteristically harsh and ordered the Night Lords, Iron Hands, and Ordo Reductor to decimate every one of the remaining rebel worlds." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Battle of Byzanthis: "Afterwards Astelan was still determined to pursue a diplomatic mission, and engaged with emissaries of the Byzanthis government known as the Committee of Nations. Negotiations were underway until Belath teleported directly into the session with a Terminator retinue, who subsequently massacred the Byzanthis delegation." (Tales of Heresy- Call the Lion)

Extermination of the Adryantis Cluster, carried out under the command of Sanguinius: "The Primarch then stated that though he knew there were innocent people within the Cluster, they would not be spared from the Blood Angels' campaign to exterminate the Adryantis Cluster's population." (Horus Heresy: Book 6)

Sacking of Monarchia (already mentioned), the Emperor personally orders the killing of an entire planet of misguided but loyal citizens, solely to teach Lorgar a lesson (The First Heretic)

Battle of 47-16, Lorgar orders the destruction of an entire planet willing to join the Imperium's fold, done in part to show his loyalty to the Emperor's instructions (The First Heretic)

Destruction of the Diasporex, a peaceful xenos-human coalition, by the Iron Hands and Emperor's Children under Fulgrim, "The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone"" (Fulgrim)

Interex Conflict, a peaceful alien-human coalition willing to remain cordial with the Imperium, Horus intended to destroy them as soon as their xenos-collaboration was determined to be incontrovertible- ultimately destroyed sometime before the war against the Auretian Technocracy (Horus Rising)

Auretian Technocracy War, a human world attacked during negotiations to join the Imperium, and the final assault described as: "The battle was noted for its brutality, as the World Eaters under Angron slaughtered soldier and civilian alike." (False Gods)

Imperial brutality during the Great Crusade is not uncommon, and is practised by the Emperor himself and Primarchs on both sides of the eventual divide, including several of the most "noble" Primarchs (Sanguinius, Vulkan, pre-Laer Fulgrim, pre-Davin Horus). The Emperor only provides token censure, or actively rewards the forces and Primarchs carrying out such actions. At least a third of the known Imperial actions against non-compliant human populations seem to involve atrocities against civilians, and there are a few high-profile examples against loyal citizens.

There is no way the Emperor is not a genocidal tyrant. He was in overall command of these forces, provided ineffective oversight to prevent the worst excesses, and ordered several of them directly himself. Whether such actions are justified within the crazy context of Warhammer 30k/40k is irrelevant- these are still the actions of a genocidal tyrant!

epronovost wrote:
The Imperium is a theocratic necrocratic dictatorship (there is no senate, the Emperor is both a god and functionally dead yet still at the helm of the Imeperium, the High Lords of Terra aren't elected); a society of Orders instead of classes (nobles, slaves, free subjects, etc); it's viciously militaristic and nationalist (Imperium vs everybod else is horrible); it's a eugenic society where mutants and abhumans are oppressed at best or exterminated (see the Inquisition and mutant purges); it has design of galactic conquest and genocide of all xenos (see the Emperors own declaration of the Grand Crusade); it revers violence and hatred as prime virtue (my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, my armor is contempt); it's trials are unfair (see Inquisition). In my opinion, this regime is pretty much the complete anti-thesis of a modern liberal social democracy and that's the point. The Imperium is a dystopian regime described by GW as the most bloodthirsty and insane regime possibly imaginable.

Small quibble. It is not entirely clear how the High Lords are selected, but there is an Imperial senate, and some High Lords are selected from members of said senate (possibly by election, although it seems highly corrupt). Some other members are permanent due to the importance of their organisations, although how they come to lead those organisations is, again, unclear (this may also include elections of a kind, and probably does for roles like the Inquisitorial Representative).

I think the most accurate descriptor of the Imperial political system is a central fascistic oligarchy controlling a vast feudal empire, with a nominal monarch. Individual planets can have whatever political system they like, so long as a governor is answerable to the wider Imperium, and follows the Imperial laws.

The Rangdan Xenocides were hostile aliens. Get your facts straight.

Horus was talkig with the Interex, and Erebus ruined it by stealing a Chaos artifact from the Interex.

The Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus.

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn

Vulkan reported him.

A lot of what you said is out context. And guess what? The Council of Terra on page 28 in the Fulgrim book thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (and Fulgrim rejected because they hdle their beleifs to be comparable to humanity's ,not because they were aliens.

And look.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre

"In the aftermath of the massacre the Emperor was forced to act and called Angron before him for reprimand..."

Most of what you said is out of context.

You ignored more than half of the list, including those by the "nice" Primarchs. Yes, some of them are out of context, but they all include Imperial atrocities.

Note that the bit I quoted about the Rangdan Xenocides was after the xenos were defeated. This was punitive purges following the war to remove any possibility of lingering enemies hiding in otherwise innocent human populations. Cearly they failed, because Slaught exist in 40k.

Horus was talking with the Interex, but there is no doubt he saw their alien collaboration as incompatible with Imperial values. The aliens were to be exterminated one way or another, and the humans with them if they resisted. Erbus' treachery is irrelevant to the aims of Horus.

I mentioned the Technocracy primarily for Angron, who was not Chaos tainted yet. As this war was right before the Horus Heresy, I am fairly sure this also happened after he was censured by the Emperor through Leman Russ following the Ghenna Massacre, so clearly that DIDN'T WORK..

Curze was reported, and nothing happened. He was allowed to continue operating in the way he did until the very end of the Great Crusade, by which point it was too late, the Horus Heresy allowed him to escape.

One almost good deed in the Laer does not undo all the other genocides and xenocides... Those killings still happened.

You've still cherry picked a handful of examples out of the enormous list. Most of them are not ambiguous- Imperial forces frequently displayed excessive force against non-compliant planets "to send a warning". They deliberately used terror threats based in massacring civilians.

Crimson wrote:The High Lords are the Senatorum Imperialis, it is the same thing.

"The Senatorum itself is composed of tens of thousands of Imperial dignitaries, nobleman, lords, and other officials, but these rarely meet and instead the "High Twelve" conduct the vast majority of affairs." There is a body of officials, but the High Lords essentially act as an executive.

[/spoiler]

Horus did not see the Interex's alien alliance as incompatible. Go read Horus Rising, Horus tries to talk with them even knowing about the aliens.

**Grimskul**

The Diasporex is an example of a relatively non-hostile society with xenos and humans living together that get aggressively wiped out by the Iron Hands (and later also by the Emperor's Children) after the humans refuse to join the Imperium. Even one of the aliens at the end telepathically sends the message that they only wanted to be left alone. You can try and pick and choose little tidbits of fluff, but ultimately you can't deny that the Emperor was a warmongering tyrant that wiped out numerous civilizations. Why is it so hard for you to admit that the Emperor, at the very least, is guilty of genocide on a galactic scale?

**Onething123456**

Grimskul wrote:
The Diasporex is an example of a relatively non-hostile society with xenos and humans living together that get aggressively wiped out by the Iron Hands after the humans refuse to join the Imperium. Even one of the aliens at the end telepathically sends the message that they only wanted to be left alone. You can try and pick and choose little tidbits of fluff, but ultimately you can't deny that the Emperor was a warmongering tyrant that wiped out numerous civilizations.

And the Council of Terra musing about making the Laer appeared in the same book, which does not make sense for me.

I don't think the Emperor is a perfect good guy, I just think a lot of it is exaggerated.

And I debunked at least half of what that guy posted about "atrocities."

That one atrocity he linked? Angron did it, and the Emperor chastised him.

**Onething123456**

Prove that Horus would have destroyed the aliens in the Interex. I read Horus Rising, and its nowhere to be found. Horus did not mind it.

The Technocracy was wiped out by Chaos corrupted Horus!! The Emperor had absoutely nothing to do with it.

**Haighus**

Onething123456 wrote:
Horus did not see the Interex's alien alliance as incompatible. Go read Horus Rising, Horus tries to talk with them even knowing about the aliens.

I have read that book. The Imperium operates a zero-tolerance policy on aliens. It is clear that they see the aliens in the Interex as incompatible with Imperial values. Just because they are talking with them does not mean that they do not want to wipe them out. A significant part of the parleying was to assess the capabilities of the Interex and how easy it would be to bring them to compliance. There is at least one other example of humans being asked to leave a human-alien coalition in the Great Crusade, and being wiped out alongside the aliens for refusing to leave.

This still ignores the rest of the list. What of the Emperor ordering and directly rewarding the Emperor's Children for their genocide on Proxima? What of the Emperor directly commanding the VIth Legion to massacre the population of one of the cities of Delsvaan, purely to intimidate the rest of the planet? These are in the list above. Either one of them is enough of a massacre ALONE to count the Emperor as genocidal.

**Onething123456**

Haighus wrote:
There are loads of Emperor-sanctioned atrocities. Look in the spoiler for examples:

Spoiler:

The Emperor directly plans and enacts destruction of the surviving (loyal) Thunder Warriors at Mount Ararat (mentioned in the Outcast Dead)

The 1st Pacification of Luna, a seperate society invaded by the Emperor (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

The Rangdan Xenocides: "What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of purges that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory." (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Fall of the Lords of Gardinaal, Ferrus Manus orders entire cities wiped out from orbit to force compliance. During the final assaults, the unconditional surrender of Gardinaal was rejected and civilians and fleeing soldiers alike were mercilessly killed (Horus Heresy: Book 2)

Conquest of Galaspar (already mentioned), Mortarian's first war in command of his Legion: "Galaspar's primary hive fell in a night and a day, the Death Guard killing any man, woman, or child who stood before them." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Proximan Betrayal, the Emperor is nearly killed by rebels on the newly compliant world- after escaping the ENTIRE planet is subjected to exterminatus, and the Emperor's Children are awarded the honour of wearing the Emperor's personal symbol (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Delsvaan Campaign, after capturing a major city in a vicious shock-assault, under the direct command of the Emperor, the VIth Legion (later the Space Wolves) perform a "great massacre" in the city, resulting in the surrender of the rest of the planet (Horus Heresy: Book 7)

Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn. However Curze's terror campaign proved successful, and resistance collapsed bloodlessly shortly after. After the campaign, the surviving population was herded into camps designated for Xenos collaborators vs. non-collaborator." (Vulkan Lives)

Ghenna Massacre: "After the Imperial Commander on Ghenna rebelled against the Emperor, the crazed warriors of the World Eaters led by Angron himself descended on the planet. In a single night of incredible bloodshed, the entire planetary population was wiped out." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Conquest of One-Five-Four-Four, Vulkan (the Primarch most protective of humans) ordered human collaborators with the Eldar on the planet wiped out following Eldar withdrawal, to keep the collaboration secret (Promethean Sun)

Castigation of Terentius: "With their leader dead, Terentius' rebellion crumbled. However Horus, his pride slighted, acted uncharacteristically harsh and ordered the Night Lords, Iron Hands, and Ordo Reductor to decimate every one of the remaining rebel worlds." (Horus Heresy: Book 1)

Battle of Byzanthis: "Afterwards Astelan was still determined to pursue a diplomatic mission, and engaged with emissaries of the Byzanthis government known as the Committee of Nations. Negotiations were underway until Belath teleported directly into the session with a Terminator retinue, who subsequently massacred the Byzanthis delegation." (Tales of Heresy- Call the Lion)

Extermination of the Adryantis Cluster, carried out under the command of Sanguinius: "The Primarch then stated that though he knew there were innocent people within the Cluster, they would not be spared from the Blood Angels' campaign to exterminate the Adryantis Cluster's population." (Horus Heresy: Book 6)

Sacking of Monarchia (already mentioned), the Emperor personally orders the killing of an entire planet of misguided but loyal citizens, solely to teach Lorgar a lesson (The First Heretic)

Battle of 47-16, Lorgar orders the destruction of an entire planet willing to join the Imperium's fold, done in part to show his loyalty to the Emperor's instructions (The First Heretic)

Destruction of the Diasporex, a peaceful xenos-human coalition, by the Iron Hands and Emperor's Children under Fulgrim, "The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone"" (Fulgrim)

Interex Conflict, a peaceful alien-human coalition willing to remain cordial with the Imperium, Horus intended to destroy them as soon as their xenos-collaboration was determined to be incontrovertible- ultimately destroyed sometime before the war against the Auretian Technocracy (Horus Rising)

Auretian Technocracy War, a human world attacked during negotiations to join the Imperium, and the final assault described as: "The battle was noted for its brutality, as the World Eaters under Angron slaughtered soldier and civilian alike." (False Gods)

Imperial brutality during the Great Crusade is not uncommon, and is practised by the Emperor himself and Primarchs on both sides of the eventual divide, including several of the most "noble" Primarchs (Sanguinius, Vulkan, pre-Laer Fulgrim, pre-Davin Horus). The Emperor only provides token censure, or actively rewards the forces and Primarchs carrying out such actions. At least a third of the known Imperial actions against non-compliant human populations seem to involve atrocities against civilians, and there are a few high-profile examples against loyal citizens.

There is no way the Emperor is not a genocidal tyrant. He was in overall command of these forces, provided ineffective oversight to prevent the worst excesses, and ordered several of them directly himself. Whether such actions are justified within the crazy context of Warhammer 30k/40k is irrelevant- these are still the actions of a genocidal tyrant!

epronovost wrote:
The Imperium is a theocratic necrocratic dictatorship (there is no senate, the Emperor is both a god and functionally dead yet still at the helm of the Imeperium, the High Lords of Terra aren't elected); a society of Orders instead of classes (nobles, slaves, free subjects, etc); it's viciously militaristic and nationalist (Imperium vs everybod else is horrible); it's a eugenic society where mutants and abhumans are oppressed at best or exterminated (see the Inquisition and mutant purges); it has design of galactic conquest and genocide of all xenos (see the Emperors own declaration of the Grand Crusade); it revers violence and hatred as prime virtue (my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, my armor is contempt); it's trials are unfair (see Inquisition). In my opinion, this regime is pretty much the complete anti-thesis of a modern liberal social democracy and that's the point. The Imperium is a dystopian regime described by GW as the most bloodthirsty and insane regime possibly imaginable.

Small quibble. It is not entirely clear how the High Lords are selected, but there is an Imperial senate, and some High Lords are selected from members of said senate (possibly by election, although it seems highly corrupt). Some other members are permanent due to the importance of their organisations, although how they come to lead those organisations is, again, unclear (this may also include elections of a kind, and probably does for roles like the Inquisitorial Representative).

I think the most accurate descriptor of the Imperial political system is a central fascistic oligarchy controlling a vast feudal empire, with a nominal monarch. Individual planets can have whatever political system they like, so long as a governor is answerable to the wider Imperium, and follows the Imperial laws.

Can you prove that Horus wanted the aliens in the Interex wiped out? I Read Horus Rising, and its nowhere to be found.

The Technocracy was wiped out by Chaos corrupted Horus.

**Grimskul**

Onething, are you deliberately ignoring his other points? You seem to conveniently avoid the other examples demonstrating that the Emperor condones genocide, I mean you keep bringing up the technocracy when nobody is using them as an argument point.

**Onething123456**

Haighus wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Horus did not see the Interex's alien alliance as incompatible. Go read Horus Rising, Horus tries to talk with them even knowing about the aliens.

I have read that book. The Imperium operates a zero-tolerance policy on aliens. It is clear that they see the aliens in the Interex as incompatible with Imperial values. Just because they are talking with them does not mean that they do not want to wipe them out. A significant part of the parleying was to assess the capabilities of the Interex and how easy it would be to bring them to compliance. There is at least one other example of humans being asked to leave a human-alien coalition in the Great Crusade, and being wiped out alongside the aliens for refusing to leave.

This still ignores the rest of the list. What of the Emperor ordering and directly rewarding the Emperor's Children for their genocide on Proxima? What of the Emperor directly commanding the VIth Legion to massacre the population of one of the cities of Delsvaan, purely to intimidate the rest of the planet? These are in the list above. Either one of them is enough of a massacre ALONE to count the Emperor as genocidal.

Prove it. Prove Horus wanted them wiped out or anything of the sort. I could not find it anywhere. Horus tells Abaddon in the book that the Emperor would not want them to wantonly destroy something when there is no good reason to. Horus even said that the Interex is the only alien co existing civilization he found.

They tried to assassinate the Emperor, and they were dangerous rebels.

The Rangdan were hostile aliens that destroyed fleets of Imperial ships.

The Technocracy was wiped out by Chaos corrupted Horus.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre

And the Ghenna massacre was done by Angron, and the Emperor chastised him for it.

And there are more to debunk.

Next time, check your sources and don't lie.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimskul wrote:
Onething, are you deliberately ignoring his other points? You seem to conveniently avoid the other examples demonstrating that the Emperor condones genocide, I mean you keep bringing up the technocracy when nobody is using them as an argument point.

I am not really for the most part. I read Horus Rising, and the reason Horus was talking about the Interex with his Marines is because he wanted to convince them to let the Interex and its alien allies be and join the Imperium. A lot of the Marines Horus talked to were xenophobic to at least some degree, and Horus was trying to convince them.

And my point stands for the Laer.

Half of what he posted is out of context. The Rangdan Xenocides is a clear lie on his part, as those aliens were hostile, and destroyed fleets of ships.

And the Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus. So why did he even bring them up?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And fun fact, in Horus Rising, Abaddon asks the other Marines to name one alien race that would rejoice to see humanity destroyed, and no one could answer.

This shows, as well as what Horus thinks about the Interex, that most aliens during the Great Crusade were hostile.

**Haighus**

Horus Rising. Quotes in spoilers. It is from my eBook copy, so page numbers are useless, but I have posted the Chapters.

Spoiler:

Part Three.
Chapter One.

they became the guests of the interex, and right from the start of their sojourn, voices had begun to call for war. Eidolon was one, and a vociferous one at that, but Eidolon was out of favour and easy to dismiss. Maloghurst was another, and so too were Sedirae and Targost, and Goshen, and Raldoron of the Blood Angels. Such men were not so easy to ignore.

The argument, best summarised by Maloghurst, ran as follows: the people of the interex are of our blood and we descend from common ancestry, so they are lost kin. But they differ from us in fundamental ways, and these are so profound, so inescapable, that they are cause for legitimate war. They contradict absolutely the essential tenets of Imperial culture as expressed by the Emperor, and such contradictions cannot be tolerated.

(emphasis mine).

‘You have no choice!’ Abaddon snarled. ‘We have seen enough already to know that their ways are in opposition to ours! You must—’

So clearly the expeditionary fleet is aware that the Interex absolutely contradict Imperial law. Many of the most senior Captains in the three Legion contingents present are supportive of this position.

Horus himself is undecided at this point:

‘We annihilate,’ said Horus. ‘They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?’

‘I will not make another rash or premature decision,’ Horus stated flatly. ‘I have made too many, and my Warmastery is threatened by my mistakes. I will understand the interex, and learn from it, and parlay with it, and only then will I decide if it has strayed too far.

and in Chapter Two:

Either they are friends, potential allies, or they are enemies. We cannot turn our attention elsewhere and expect them to stay put. If they are enemies, if they are against us, then they could pose a threat as great as the greenskins. I will go to the summit and meet their leaders.’

Clearly, he knows that exterminating them is the correct decision under Imperial doctrine, but he is influenced by recent events to study them. He is actually questioning the very validity of Imperial doctrine, questioning if what the Emperor says is correct. This is entirely because of the genocidal nature of the Great Crusade.

Chapter Three

This gives us more insight into standard Imperial Doctrine. Abaddon says:

‘Since when have we worried about hurting people’s feelings, lord?’ Abaddon asked. ‘Whatever our differences, these are humans. It is their duty and their destiny to join with us and stand with us, for the primary glory of Terra. If they will not…’
He let the words hang.

Clearly, it is considered normal to force compliance through the sword. Destiny even.

Horus is also still considering war with the Interex, but notes they couldn't even do it at present if they wanted to. At least part of his position is pragmatism:

‘We will not have war here,’ Horus said. ‘We cannot afford it. We cannot afford to open up a conflict on this front. Not at this time. Not on the vast scale subduing the interex would demand. If they even need subduing.’

Horus is also aware that what he is suggesting is against the edicts of the Emperor, against the tenets of the Great Crusade. He explictly states that he is going to try to understand the Interex as Warmaster, in the hope that a more moderate way can be found. The alternative is clear though, and Horus has clearly considered this:

the people of the interex are clearly not monsters, nor resolute foes. I believe that if the Emperor were with us today, he would immediately embrace the need for adaptation. He would not want us to wantonly destroy that which there is no good reason to destroy. It is precisely to make such choices that he has placed his trust in me.’
He looked round at them all. ‘He trusts me to make the decisions he would make. He trusts me to make no mistakes. I must be allowed the freedom to interpret policy on his behalf. I will not be forced into violence simply to satisfy some slavish expectation.’

Chapter 4

This gives us our first indication of the fate of the Interex:

In the streets surrounding the compound area, the people of the interex got their first taste of the power of the Imperial Astartes. In the years to come, they would experience a good deal more.

I believe the text talking of their destruction is in False Gods.

Ultimately, it is heavily implied that Horus learns from this incident that the Emperor is correct, that the Imperium must stand alone in the stars.

Onething123456 wrote:
And I debunked at least half of what that guy posted about "atrocities."

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, because you may not have re-read my post after I first edited it to include far more Imperial atrocities. However, you have not "debunked" even half of them, and just one is still a genocide.

**Crimson**

I think Onething would be way happier with AOS. He seems to want a good guy faction. Whilst that setting is far from black and white too, it is far easier to argue that Sigmar is basically a good guy.

**Andykp**

Again crimson swoops in and solves it. Common sense at its finest. Expect a random quote saying that Sigmar is a nice guy to try to prove you wrong.

**Onething123456**

Haighus wrote:
Horus Rising. Quotes in spoilers. It is from my eBook copy, so page numbers are useless, but I have posted the Chapters.

Spoiler:

Part Three.
Chapter One.

they became the guests of the interex, and right from the start of their sojourn, voices had begun to call for war. Eidolon was one, and a vociferous one at that, but Eidolon was out of favour and easy to dismiss. Maloghurst was another, and so too were Sedirae and Targost, and Goshen, and Raldoron of the Blood Angels. Such men were not so easy to ignore.

The argument, best summarised by Maloghurst, ran as follows: the people of the interex are of our blood and we descend from common ancestry, so they are lost kin. But they differ from us in fundamental ways, and these are so profound, so inescapable, that they are cause for legitimate war. They contradict absolutely the essential tenets of Imperial culture as expressed by the Emperor, and such contradictions cannot be tolerated.

(emphasis mine).

‘You have no choice!’ Abaddon snarled. ‘We have seen enough already to know that their ways are in opposition to ours! You must—’

So clearly the expeditionary fleet is aware that the Interex absolutely contradict Imperial law. Many of the most senior Captains in the three Legion contingents present are supportive of this position.

Horus himself is undecided at this point:

‘We annihilate,’ said Horus. ‘They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?’

‘I will not make another rash or premature decision,’ Horus stated flatly. ‘I have made too many, and my Warmastery is threatened by my mistakes. I will understand the interex, and learn from it, and parlay with it, and only then will I decide if it has strayed too far.

and in Chapter Two:

Either they are friends, potential allies, or they are enemies. We cannot turn our attention elsewhere and expect them to stay put. If they are enemies, if they are against us, then they could pose a threat as great as the greenskins. I will go to the summit and meet their leaders.’

Clearly, he knows that exterminating them is the correct decision under Imperial doctrine, but he is influenced by recent events to study them. He is actually questioning the very validity of Imperial doctrine, questioning if what the Emperor says is correct. This is entirely because of the genocidal nature of the Great Crusade.

Chapter Three

This gives us more insight into standard Imperial Doctrine. Abaddon says:

‘Since when have we worried about hurting people’s feelings, lord?’ Abaddon asked. ‘Whatever our differences, these are humans. It is their duty and their destiny to join with us and stand with us, for the primary glory of Terra. If they will not…’
He let the words hang.

Clearly, it is considered normal to force compliance through the sword. Destiny even.

Horus is also still considering war with the Interex, but notes they couldn't even do it at present if they wanted to. At least part of his position is pragmatism:

‘We will not have war here,’ Horus said. ‘We cannot afford it. We cannot afford to open up a conflict on this front. Not at this time. Not on the vast scale subduing the interex would demand. If they even need subduing.’

Horus is also aware that what he is suggesting is against the edicts of the Emperor, against the tenets of the Great Crusade. He explictly states that he is going to try to understand the Interex as Warmaster, in the hope that a more moderate way can be found. The alternative is clear though, and Horus has clearly considered this:

the people of the interex are clearly not monsters, nor resolute foes. I believe that if the Emperor were with us today, he would immediately embrace the need for adaptation. He would not want us to wantonly destroy that which there is no good reason to destroy. It is precisely to make such choices that he has placed his trust in me.’
He looked round at them all. ‘He trusts me to make the decisions he would make. He trusts me to make no mistakes. I must be allowed the freedom to interpret policy on his behalf. I will not be forced into violence simply to satisfy some slavish expectation.’

Chapter 4

This gives us our first indication of the fate of the Interex:

In the streets surrounding the compound area, the people of the interex got their first taste of the power of the Imperial Astartes. In the years to come, they would experience a good deal more.

I believe the text talking of their destruction is in False Gods.

Ultimately, it is heavily implied that Horus learns from this incident that the Emperor is correct, that the Imperium must stand alone in the stars.

Onething123456 wrote:
And I debunked at least half of what that guy posted about "atrocities."

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, because you may not have re-read my post after I first edited it to include far more Imperial atrocities. However, you have not "debunked" even half of them, and just one is still a genocide.

Why did you bring up the Rangdan Xenocides when those aliens were hostile, destroyed planets, fleets of ships, and many Marines?

The Technocracy was disproven.

The Interex was disproven.

The Rangdan Xenocide was disproven.

Compliance of Kharaatan was technically disproven, as Vulkan reported it (but I have not seen a quote or source for the Emperor doing nothing about it)

And the Ghenna massacre was disproven, as the Emperor chastised Angron for that.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:
I think Onething would be way happier with AOS. He seems to want a good guy faction. Whilst that setting is far from black and white too, it is far easier to argue that Sigmar is basically a good guy.

Fantasy? Warhammer Fantasy is grimdark as well (from what I know, its dark like 40k).

**Haighus**

Onething123456 wrote:

They tried to assassinate the Emperor, and they were dangerous rebels.

All of them? Every human on those worlds? The wording suggests that the attacks were carried out by a rebel faction, yet every single human was killed, via exterminatus no less! Something that usually renders the planet unusable to the Imperium for an extended period. In revenge, the Emperor wasted an entire world. Wiping out an entire population to kill some rebels is genocide.

The Rangdan were hostile aliens that destroyed fleets of Imperial ships.

The Rangdan Xenocides is a clear lie on his part, as those aliens were hostile, and destroyed fleets of ships.

They were, much more than just fleets in fact. The point was that entire Imperial planets were scoured of life after the Rangdan were defeated, as a kind of quarantine zone/excision margin. Was this necessary? Perhaps, we know very little of this war. Were billions of loyal Imperial citizens exterminated simply for being near the xenos? Yes.

The Technocracy was wiped out by Chaos corrupted Horus.

And the Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus. So why did he even bring them up?

Yes, Horus was corrupted, but the other forces present were not. I merely included this as an example of Angron operating without restraint, after he had been ineffectively censured by Russ. This war was also considered acceptable by the wider Imperium.

And the Ghenna massacre was done by Angron, and the Emperor chastised him for it.

Did the Emperor's chastisement achieve anything? Did Angron change his ways? Was he removed from command? Nope. If you murder someone, and I give you a slap on the wrist and tell you you have been a bad person, do you think that is an appropriate level of punishment? That is essentially what the Emperor has done here. It is not even clear that the Emperor did anything, or whether Russ acted entirely of his own initiative.

And there are more to debunk. Next time, check your sources and don't lie. Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimskul wrote:
Onething, are you deliberately ignoring his other points? You seem to conveniently avoid the other examples demonstrating that the Emperor condones genocide, I mean you keep bringing up the technocracy when nobody is using them as an argument point.

I am not really for the most part. I read Horus Rising, and the reason Horus was talking about the Interex with his Marines is because he wanted to convince them to let the Interex and its alien allies be and join the Imperium. A lot of the Marines Horus talked to were xenophobic to at least some degree, and Horus was trying to convince them.

They are xenophobic to an extreme degree, because that is official, Emperor-sanctioned doctrine. So is Horus. Horus is deliberately trying to be different because he does not want more genocidal blood on his hands, but he sure recognises what he is supposed to do.

And my point stands for the Laer. Half of what he posted is out of context. Automatically Appended Next Post:
And fun fact, in Horus Rising, Abaddon asks the other Marines to name one alien race that would rejoice to see humanity destroyed, and no one could answer. This shows, as well as what Horus thinks about the Interex, that most aliens during the Great Crusade were hostile.

I should think so! I'd be extremely surprised if any aliens liked the openly xenocidal Imperium of Mankind. The Imperium has a stated aim of destroying all alien life! If a civilisation had attacked you with the goal of wiping you out, would you be happy to see them gone? Of course! Hate breeds hate. The Diasporex was an example of some peaceful aliens (and humans) hunted to extinction simply for being aliens. Did Horus ever give the aliens chance to be peaceful in the past? He only gave the Interex a chance because he thought they were entirely human to begin with.

**Onething123456**

Haighus wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

They tried to assassinate the Emperor, and they were dangerous rebels.

All of them? Every human on those worlds? The wording suggests that the attacks were carried out by a rebel faction, yet every single human was killed, via exterminatus no less! Something that usually renders the planet unusable to the Imperium for an extended period. In revenge, the Emperor wasted an entire world. Wiping out an entire population to kill some rebels is genocide.

The Rangdan were hostile aliens that destroyed fleets of Imperial ships.

The Rangdan Xenocides is a clear lie on his part, as those aliens were hostile, and destroyed fleets of ships.

They were, much more than just fleets in fact. The point was that entire Imperial planets were scoured of life after the Rangdan were defeated, as a kind of quarantine zone/excision margin. Was this necessary? Perhaps, we know very little of this war. Were billions of loyal Imperial citizens exterminated simply for being near the xenos? Yes.

The Technocracy was wiped out by Chaos corrupted Horus.

And the Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus. So why did he even bring them up?

Yes, Horus was corrupted, but the other forces present were not. I merely included this as an example of Angron operating without restraint, after he had been ineffectively censured by Russ. This war was also considered acceptable by the wider Imperium.

And the Ghenna massacre was done by Angron, and the Emperor chastised him for it.

Did the Emperor's chastisement achieve anything? Did Angron change his ways? Was he removed from command? Nope. If you murder someone, and I give you a slap on the wrist and tell you you have been a bad person, do you think that is an appropriate level of punishment? That is essentially what the Emperor has done here. It is not even clear that the Emperor did anything, or whether Russ acted entirely of his own initiative.

And there are more to debunk. Next time, check your sources and don't lie. Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimskul wrote:
Onething, are you deliberately ignoring his other points? You seem to conveniently avoid the other examples demonstrating that the Emperor condones genocide, I mean you keep bringing up the technocracy when nobody is using them as an argument point.

I am not really for the most part. I read Horus Rising, and the reason Horus was talking about the Interex with his Marines is because he wanted to convince them to let the Interex and its alien allies be and join the Imperium. A lot of the Marines Horus talked to were xenophobic to at least some degree, and Horus was trying to convince them.

They are xenophobic to an extreme degree, because that is official, Emperor-sanctioned doctrine. So is Horus. Horus is deliberately trying to be different because he does not want more genocidal blood on his hands, but he sure recognises what he is supposed to do.

And my point stands for the Laer. Half of what he posted is out of context. Automatically Appended Next Post:
And fun fact, in Horus Rising, Abaddon asks the other Marines to name one alien race that would rejoice to see humanity destroyed, and no one could answer. This shows, as well as what Horus thinks about the Interex, that most aliens during the Great Crusade were hostile.
I should think so! I'd be extremely surprised if any aliens liked the openly xenocidal Imperium of Mankind. The Imperium has a stated aim of destroying all alien life! If a civilisation had attacked you with the goal of wiping you out, would you be happy to see them gone? Of course! Hate breeds hate. The Diasporex was an example of some peaceful aliens (and humans) hunted to extinction simply for being aliens. Did Horus ever give the aliens chance to be peaceful in the past? He only gave the Interex a chance because he thought they were entirely human to begin with.

How is the Rangdan Xenocides an atrocity? Because the Imperium was trying to get rid of their taint? I suppose it would be, but the Imperium did not want to risk it.

I'm not saying the Great Crusade was perfect, but a lot of what you said does not add up with what I read.

Here is a full context for your one quote. It unequivocally says all aliens before the Interex were hostile, and that things were so chaotic at the beginnig of the Crusade that war was the only way.

"And one of his wishes.’ said Horus, 'was that I should be Warmaster, his sole regent, and strive to make his dreams reality. The crusade was born out of the Age of Strife, Ezekyle. Born out of war. Our ruthless approach of conquest and cleansing was formulated in a time when every alien form we met was hostile, every fragment of humanity that was not with us was profoundly opposed to us. War was the only answer. There was no room for subtlety, but two centuries have passed, and different problems face us. The bulk of war is over. That is why the Emperor returned to Terra and left us to finish the work. Ezekyle, the people of the interex are clearly not monsters, nor resolute foes. I believe that if the Emperor were with us today, he would immediately embrace the need for adaptation. He would not want us to wantonly destroy that which there is no good reason to destroy." - Horus rising, pages 387 to 388.

There is no indication Horus would have destroyed the aliens in the Interex.

Angron was censured by Russ. Everything with the Technocracy was fine until Horus became corrupted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Horus at least thinks the Emperor would have dealt with the Interex peacefully.

Can we stop this subject soon? I probably have to go to bed soon and am getting tired of this.

**Haighus**

You are missing the point with aliens- the Imperium assumed they were all hostile. They attacked first, asked questions later. I'm sure news also spread fairly quickly that humans were killing everything they encountered, so other aliens probably became more aggressive to humans.

Some aliens were definitely incontrovertibly violent to humans, but many probably never really got a chance to ally with the Imperium, like Tarellians, the aliens in the Diasporex (these guys definitely didn't), perhaps even the Eldar. We never hear of the Imperium trying to open dialogue with aliens in the GC, they just attack. The Interex were spared this due to the belief that they were solely human.

I'm not arguing if the genocides following the xenocides were justified, they may have been. But a justified atrocity is still an atrocity. Part of the darkness of 30k/40k is that the bad stuff of the Imperium is sadly justified in much of their context and environment.

Yet we are often shown hints of what else could've been, if the Imperium was tolerant. The Interex serves to show that, they are there to point out that the Emperor may have been flawed in his genocidal vision.