The Emperor's actions during the Great Crusade

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**Onething123456**

Haighus wrote:
You are missing the point with aliens- the Imperium assumed they were all hostile. They attacked first, asked questions later. I'm sure news also spread fairly quickly that humans were killing everything they encountered, so other aliens probably became more aggressive to humans.

Some aliens were definitely incontrovertibly violent to humans, but many probably never really got a chance to ally with the Imperium, like Tarellians, the aliens in the Diasporex (these guys definitely didn't), perhaps even the Eldar. We never hear of the Imperium trying to open dialogue with aliens in the GC, they just attack. The Interex were spared this due to the belief that they were solely human.

I'm not arguing if the genocides following the xenocides were justified, they may have been. But a justified atrocity is still an atrocity. Part of the darkness of 30k/40k is that the bad stuff of the Imperium is sadly justified in much of their context and environment.

Yet we are often shown hints of what else could've been, if the Imperium was tolerant. The Interex serves to show that, they are there to point out that the Emperor may have been flawed in his genocidal vision.

I said most aliens during the Crusade were hostile. Not all. Some were, mostly the Interex, Laer and one more. And the point of 40k (in its current time mostly) is that an empire as bad or worse than the Nazis are justified in what they do.

We don't know enough about the Tarellians. They could have been a threat.

**Grimskul**

@Onething

I don't know how much clearer Haighus can be, he's spelled out for you how the Rangdan Xenocides are relevant, because millions of potential innocent humans were wiped out AFTER the Slaugth were dealt with simply due to paranoia.

Also, of course Horus and the others would think war is the only solution. The whole GC is inherently based around mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars alone, not to befriend aliens like in Star Trek. Nazi Germany also thought they were right to invade Slavic countries for the German people, and purge non-Aryan races. The Nazis didn't think they were wrong either, using war to bring their ideology to different countries. The Imperium is the same.

I don't get why you find it so hard to accept the Imperium and the Emperor's nature as highly genocidal, it's part of the grimdarkness of 40K, that humanity's "best" option left is still the worst within our modern context.

**Haighus**

Onething123456 wrote:

I said most aliens during the Crusade were hostile. Not all. Some were, mostly the Interex, Laer and one more. And the point of 40k (in its current time mostly) is that an empire as bad or worse than the Nazis are justified in what they do.

We don't know they were hostile, only that they were hostile after the Imperium attacked them. Many likely were not hostile.

Be careful there. The point is not that the Imperium is justified, the point is that things have to be so crazy extreme to make that kind of gak look anywhere close to justified. A subtle difference that changes the point from justification to critique. The Imperium is not meant to look good, but to highlight the issues with the kind of policies it follows.

**Onething123456**

Grimskul wrote:
@Onething

I don't know how much clearer Haighus can be, he's spelled out for you how the Rangdan Xenocides are relevant, because millions of potential innocent humans were wiped out AFTER the Slaugth were dealt with simply due to paranoia.

Also, of course Horus and the others would think war is the only solution. The whole GC is inherently based around mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars alone, not to befriend aliens like in Star Trek. Nazi Germany also thought they were right to invade Slavic countries for the German people, and purge non-Aryan races. The Nazis didn't think they were wrong either, using war to bring their ideology to different countries. The Imperium is the same.

I don't get why you find it so hard to accept the Imperium and the Emperor's nature as highly genocidal, it's part of the grimdarkness of 40K, that humanity's "best" option left is still the worst within our modern context.

I get that, but given how dangerous the Rangdan were, its understandable. Its not right, but when you have the Slaugth and the Nephilim, its understandable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Haighus wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I said most aliens during the Crusade were hostile. Not all. Some were, mostly the Interex, Laer and one more. And the point of 40k (in its current time mostly) is that an empire as bad or worse than the Nazis are justified in what they do.

We don't know they were hostile, only that they were hostile after the Imperium attacked them. Many likely were not hostile.

Be careful there. The point is not that the Imperium is justified, the point is that things have to be so crazy extreme to make that kind of gak look anywhere close to justified. A subtle difference that changes the point from justification to critique. The Imperium is not meant to look good, but to highlight the issues with the kind of policies it follows.

Horus Heresy: Book one from the Forgeworld says the Imperium freed "enslaved billions" from alien slavers. Its safe to say that most aliens were hostile. Because the Forgeworld books (which you mostly quoted from) seem to emphasize that with the Slaugth, Nephilim, and so on.

And is it alright if I ask you a question in a PM completely unrelated to this thread?

**HoundsofDemos**

One thing to keep in mind in any war, the leadership is going to do anything it can to dehumanize/demonize the enemy. Your not gonna tell your guys hey that guy is just like you, he's just as scared and nervous but is fighting for what he thinks is a good cause. Your gonna tell them the enemy is the worst, they've done horrible things and need to be destroyed. It's like a lot of aliens were hostile to humans. It's also likely a lot simply wanted to either be left alone and had a decent deal with the humans who they shared the system with. Most of those died for the simple fact that the Emperor thought his way was the best way.

**epronovost**

@Haighus

Eldars and human did lived in peace during the Dark Age of Technology. t's even hinted that they protected humanity from threats like orks during that time period. In Fulgrim, it's mention that the main beef of the Eldars toward humanity post Age of Strife is the fact that they colonised Maiden Worlds. The Imperium also attacked and killed Exodite Eldars and they never posed any threat to them since they don't have ships to attack them. They live in isolation on their own planets.

**agurus1**

Been reading several of these threads and @ Onething, it seems that you have two issues with understanding others points and getting yours across.

1. You seem to be under them impression that these discussions are live, like a chat room. They are not, people go away for hours and will return and catch up on the discussion and then respond to previous posts. There is no need to demand answers from someone, they have likely gone to work or bed. Nor do you need to restate continueously previous remarks in the same thread over and over. Everyone will have likely seen your original point by the time they post. Also, the discussion won’t end if you log off so don’t feel rushed to answer everything before you go to bed, the thread will still be here in the morning.

2. (This is for OneThing and everyone else) it seems that you have either not read the Horus Heresy rulebooks or consider the stories in them as less worthy than those published in the Black Library ahorus Heresy series? If so that might contribute greatly to the misunderstandings between you and the very solid points other posters are making.