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But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

 Crimson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought marines were 7 feet tall, 8 in powered armor?

How would the armour add a full foot? Eight feet has always been BL exaggeration.

Whilst I've only read a handful of BL books they do rather seem to take the manly tales of manly deeds in a manly galaxy a tad literally rather than the unreliable narrative / IoM propaganda of earlier editions

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

Or maybe it just looks similar to a Godwyn pattern bolter, but its a different model.
The AK 47 looks like an AK 74 or a Type 56, but they are different guns.

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

Actually the Godwy-Daez pattern (the one used by the Sisterhood) is the same caliber than a Godwyn pattern bolter of the Adeptus Astartes and is apparently more reliable and performant since it's an improved model (according to the 3rd eddition Witch Hunter codex).

The idea that normal humans couldn't use Astartes weapons is total nonsense. They can fire grenade launchers, heavy stubbers and even heavy bolters just fine, a bolter is no problem.

 Crimson wrote:
The idea that normal humans couldn't use Astartes weapons is total nonsense. They can fire grenade launchers, heavy stubbers and even heavy bolters just fine, a bolter is no problem.

If by just fine you mean "the heavy stubber and heavy bolter needs to be braced on the ground rather than fired standing, like the marines can, and requires an additional soldier to help with set up and loading" then yeah, sure, just fine.
There is that one Catachan guy, but he's an exception, not the rule. Like Marbo.
There are also Astartes patterns of grenade launchers that are used by them. Imperial Guard have their own versions.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The idea that normal humans couldn't use Astartes weapons is total nonsense. They can fire grenade launchers, heavy stubbers and even heavy bolters just fine, a bolter is no problem.

If by just fine you mean "the heavy stubber and heavy bolter needs to be braced on the ground rather than fired standing, like the marines can, and requires an additional soldier to help with set up and loading" then yeah, sure, just fine.
There is that one Catachan guy, but he's an exception, not the rule. Like Marbo.
There are also Astartes patterns of grenade launchers that are used by them. Imperial Guard have their own versions.

Yeah, I really doubt these guys would have a problem handling a bolter!

its space fantasy dude. if the writers need a human who can face a demon, then theyre going to make it so. like the dragon fighting bodybuilders of 80s fantasy.

Also, when facing something like a greater daemon, I don't think any space marine enhancements are gonna do much. Sure, you're somewhat stronger than tougher, but that house-sized warp monster is gonna crush you like a bug anyway. Daemon fighting probably requires tactics, knowledge and gear that rely on something else than raw strength to begin with.

 Crimson wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah, I really doubt these guys would have a problem handling a bolter!

I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.

Sterling191 wrote:


I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.

Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.

(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)

Lammia wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.

Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.

It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.

Or they use a bodyglove with neurolinks and artifcer armour which is signifcantly better than the majority of the armour that Marines use.

Same as Ad Mech.

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.

 Crimson wrote:

Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.

So you've done the math on a .75 cal godwyn pattern gyrojet shell versus, say, a .50 cal FMJ round? Cause I'd love to see that data.

I'd also like to know where you source your M20-M30 dark age tech specifications.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Lammia wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.

Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.

It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.

Or they use a bodyglove with neurolinks and artifcer armour which is signifcantly better than the majority of the armour that Marines use.

Same as Ad Mech.

By the point they can use a bodyglove with neurolinks (which is essentially what Space Marine power armour functions like) they are about as augmented as a Space Marine or Techpriest though, so that falls outside of the spectrum of "normal human".

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Lammia wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Inquisitors are human, though they can sometimes be heavily modified. They can use power armour, thunder hammers and the like, since those are also made in normal human size. They could not use Space Marine power armour or weapons though, since those are much larger than normal.

Maybe it's a detail, but Space Marines aren't THAT big. They are seven foot tall (in power armor). A six foot tall human in power armor can probably use the exact same weapon. It's just going to be a bit large. After all, a six foot and a half and 5 foot and a half men can use the same tools without need for intense modification. The same would go between a Space Marine and a human. Plus, most Space Marines weapons are fairly compact. A thunder hammer is big but not enormous either.

It's not really about size of the body. Humans can't intergrate with power armour to the same degree as Space Marines and can't carry a reactor on their back, so they use a 'dumb' version of the armour.

Or they use a bodyglove with neurolinks and artifcer armour which is signifcantly better than the majority of the armour that Marines use.

Same as Ad Mech.

By the point they can use a bodyglove with neurolinks (which is essentially what Space Marine power armour functions like) they are about as augmented as a Space Marine or Techpriest though, so that falls outside of the spectrum of "normal human".

Nope - Amberley Vail and others are mainly base line humans. The Bodyglove works fine for them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.

That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.

 Crimson wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.

That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.

There is no alternative 40k. The FF books don't take place in some alternative else world of 40k universe 7. Just like a codex, BL, WD article or other campaign book it's all part of one setting. Just because you dislike these particular details does not mean they should be dismissed out of hand.

 Crimson wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.

That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.

Have you ever actually read any fluff beyond the codices? It is in lots of official BB novels as well. Hell, it may even be mentioned in one of the codices, I would need to have a look through all the old ones again. And I'd love to see where it is stated that a heavy stubber has more recoil than a bolter. Or did you just make that up? A heavy stubber is basically a .50 cal machine gun, which large people can actually carry around (no use firing it from the hip though, unless you just want to spray bullets around randomly). A bolter has a larger caliber than that, and considering how much power comes out of such a relatively small weapon, a much larger explosive charge as well. Normal people can't just run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, what makes you think they could do it with a even more powerful bolter?

HoundsofDemos wrote:

There is no alternative 40k. The FF books don't take place in some alternative else world of 40k universe 7. Just like a codex, BL, WD article or other campaign book it's all part of one setting. Just because you dislike these particular details does not mean they should be dismissed out of hand.

It is not even GW stuff, it is licenced material like the computer games and the warhammer leggings. They took a lot of liberties with the lore.

 Crimson wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But the weapons are. It is clearly a Godwyn pattern bolter, the exact same weapon used by marines.

The weapons aren't to scale either. Nothing in GW models is to scale (just look at the size of the heads of the Guardsmen). While it is the same design, Imperial Guard bolters (and all bolters made to be used by normal humans) are smaller in the fluff than their Space Marine counterparts and use a smaller explosive charge to decrease the recoil to a level that can be managed without power armour.

That's nonsense. You suggest that the weapon with exact same name, the exact same rules and represented with the exact same model (which is of exact same size) is meant to represent a different weapon? Hell no! This is not a thing that has ever been mentioned in the studio fluff. I know it is in FFG books, but that's just a different version of the setting. And as noted, the recoil thing makes no sense, normal humans can handle way heavier weapons without an issue.

dude, the studio fluff barely mentions anything about how ANYTHING works. the studio fluff is basicly all figurative masturbation about how great the army whose codex you happen to hold in your hands is. If the ONLY thing you take into account is studio fluff you must have a laughably simplistic view of 40k.

BTW, the thing about Marines Boltguns being bigger then normal human bolt guns also appers in Emperor's Last Gift. It's subtle though so it's easy to miss. the Inqusitor in question has a Boltgun reckongized as an Astartes model, that she has to have a supensor disc near the front end of it so she can wield it easily.

One thing to keep in mind Crimson, the guy you posted wielding a heavy bolter by himself, is a catachan. who are all famed for being partiuclarly big and strong for base line humans. (to the point that in their faction rules in Codex IG 8th, they have STR 4) maaaaaybe not an ideal solution?

The idea that Space Marines would have special weaponry designed to take advantage of their unique psyology simply makes sense,

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you ever actually read any fluff beyond the codices? It is in lots of official BB novels as well. Hell, it may even be mentioned in one of the codices, I would need to have a look through all the old ones again. And I'd love to see where it is stated that a heavy stubber has more recoil than a bolter. Or did you just make that up? A heavy stubber is basically a .50 cal machine gun, which large people can actually carry around (no use firing it from the hip though, unless you just want to spray bullets around randomly). A bolter has a larger caliber than that, and considering how much power comes out of such a relatively small weapon, a much larger explosive charge as well. Normal people can't just run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, what makes you think they could do it with a even more powerful bolter?

But in 40K normal people can run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, as evidenced by heavy stubber! And they can carry and fire a heavy bolter too! Are you going to argue that marines use bolters that are heavier and have bigger recoil than heavy bolters that normal humans use?

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

There is no alternative 40k. The FF books don't take place in some alternative else world of 40k universe 7. Just like a codex, BL, WD article or other campaign book it's all part of one setting. Just because you dislike these particular details does not mean they should be dismissed out of hand.

It is not even GW stuff, it is licenced material like the computer games and the warhammer leggings. They took a lot of liberties with the lore.

It is just as canon as other GW stuff though, according to GW's official canon policy of "everything and nothing is canon, decide for yourself".

 Crimson wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you ever actually read any fluff beyond the codices? It is in lots of official BB novels as well. Hell, it may even be mentioned in one of the codices, I would need to have a look through all the old ones again. And I'd love to see where it is stated that a heavy stubber has more recoil than a bolter. Or did you just make that up? A heavy stubber is basically a .50 cal machine gun, which large people can actually carry around (no use firing it from the hip though, unless you just want to spray bullets around randomly). A bolter has a larger caliber than that, and considering how much power comes out of such a relatively small weapon, a much larger explosive charge as well. Normal people can't just run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, what makes you think they could do it with a even more powerful bolter?

But in 40K normal people can run around with and fire a .50 cal machine gun, as evidenced by heavy stubber! And they can carry and fire a heavy bolter too! Are you going to argue that marines use bolters that are heavier and have bigger recoil than heavy bolters that normal humans use?

Yes, but nothing different from the real world. That guy with a heavy stubber is larger than average, and the model doesn't show how he fires the gun (he'd have to use the ground or something else to stabilise it if he wants any sort of accuracy). He reminds me a lot of this ISIS guy actually:


The only person not a Space Marine who wields a dismounted heavy bolter meanwhile is 1. a Catachan (so hardly a normal human) and 2. heavily augmented specifically to allow him to wield a heavy bolter (so not a normal human at all).

BrianDavion wrote:


One thing to keep in mind Crimson, the guy you posted wielding a heavy bolter by himself, is a catachan. who are all famed for being partiuclarly big and strong for base line humans. (to the point that in their faction rules in Codex IG 8th, they have STR 4) maaaaaybe not an ideal solution?

No, he was an Orlock ganger from Necromunda (not a Goliath!) Normal human gangers from Necromunda can use heavy bolters.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

It is just as canon as other GW stuff though, according to GW's official canon policy of "everything and nothing is canon, decide for yourself".

But it is not GW stuff!

 Crimson wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

It is just as canon as other GW stuff though, according to GW's official canon policy of "everything and nothing is canon, decide for yourself".

But it is not GW stuff!

It literally has a big GW stamp on it...

It is though, and it gives some of the best details about how a lot of equipment works in the 40k universe that the Codexes don't touch on. Also logically it makes sense that human rounds would be smaller, they are not space marines and wouldn't be able to use the weapon the same way a marine would.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

It literally has a big GW stamp on it...

Do you understand what licenced material means? It is not produced by GW.


GW's Inquisition (54mm semi-RPG) that has far more detailed rules than 40K has four different types of bolters (not counting pistols, storm bolters et.c) and various different types of bolt ammunition. It makes no difference between boltguns wielded by marines and normal humans either in the rules or in the description of equipment. In this level of detail the difference would absolutely be present were it intended to exist.

@Iron_Captain

I would use FFS weapon stats as a good example of Space Marines guns being too big and to heavy for normal human. In fact, those stats are purely number crunch. They vary from game to game even in the same eddition (example Dak Eldar weapons in Rogue Trader vs Only War, Kroots in Only War vs Rogue Trader vs Deathwatch) and sometime runs opposite to the fluff (or common sense) of other GW books like bolter being stronger than pulse rifle or necron weapons. I guess if I had to chose, I find stupid the idea that a light weapon designed for a slightly larger human cannot be manipulated by a hearty normal human being.

I'm with Crimson on this one. There isn't any logical reason that humans capable of carrying heavy stubbers (weapons with basically the same statline, but a considerably higher fire rate) cannot fire Marine bolters. Heavy stubbers should logically have a higher recoil, because they essentially hit harder at the other end despite not firing explosive bolts (3 S4 bursts in the same time as 2 S4 bursts). Guardsmen tend to work in weapons teams because they use oversized weapons and need to carry the ammunition in addition to the weapon (something power armoured-Marines can do easily). Compare a Cadian heavy bolter to a Marine heavy bolter- the Cadian one is much larger (presumably for improved sustained fire in defensive positions or something).

Are there multiple patterns of Godwyn-pattern bolters, which are outwardly the same, but different in calibre? Quite possibly, this is the Imperium after all. However, they clearly all fire approximately the same "burst weight", because they have broadly equal efficacy (identical efficacy based on Crimson's info about the Inquisition RPG).

I think that within the original context of Inquisitors in power armour, there is also absolutely no issue with firing bolters, as the armour is capable of absorbing much of the recoil.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.

 Crimson wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:


I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.

Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.

(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)

That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?

Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.