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Wyzilla wrote: Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself.
Good think that we know from the Inquisitor game then that marines use the exact same bolt ammunition types than everybody else!
Seriously, if GW wanted marines to have bigger, better bolters then everybody else, then they would make a different model to represent them and give them better rules. And this is exactly what they did with Cawl pattern weapons! But the previous bolters are same as everybody else's.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/23 23:36:09
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
We know approximately how hard these weapons hit. If Marine bolters fire rounds with so much more recoil than heavy stubbers, then why do heavy stubbers hit just as hard as Marine bolter rounds (actually harder overall)? That would suggest that the bolters are super inefficient and lose much of their velocity before striking the target, which is not supported by any of the fluff.
GW gives us relatively well defined quanta of gun power in 40k, and bolters are not ridiculously powerful for ballistic infantry small-arms wielded by humans. Could there be small differences between Marine and "human" bolters? Maybe, but they are still broadly equivalent to each other, and less powerful than a heavy stubber (which fires three S4 "shots" in the time a bolter fires 2 "shots"). Also less powerful than the heavy bolters being wielded by underhive gangers (not just Goliaths).
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Wyzilla wrote: Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself.
Good think that we know from the Inquisitor game then that marines use the exact same bolt ammunition types than everybody else!
Seriously, if GW wanted marines to have bigger, better bolters then everybody else, then they would make a different model to represent them and give them better rules. And this is exactly what they did with Cawl pattern weapons! But the previous bolters are same as everybody else's.
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
We know approximately how hard these weapons hit. If Marine bolters fire rounds with so much more recoil than heavy stubbers, then why do heavy stubbers hit just as hard as Marine bolter rounds (actually harder overall)? That would suggest that the bolters are super inefficient and lose much of their velocity before striking the target, which is not supported by any of the fluff.
GW gives us relatively well defined quanta of gun power in 40k, and bolters are not ridiculously powerful for ballistic infantry small-arms wielded by humans. Could there be small differences between Marine and "human" bolters? Maybe, but they are still broadly equivalent to each other, and less powerful than a heavy stubber (which fires three S4 "shots" in the time a bolter fires 2 "shots"). Also less powerful than the heavy bolters being wielded by underhive gangers (not just Goliaths).
Stats mean nothing because of game balance. Bolters are weak because if they were up to their true strength, ork and guard armies would suffer horribly. Nevermind the general stupidity of game stats in the first place that allow naked S3 models to survive getting hit by a krak missile, or that heavy stubbers are anywhere near the strength of boltguns and gauss. Using them as an indication of anything but GW's attempts to balance the system is absurd.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:13:43
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
Except in GW published books, there is mention of different calibers. The Older Phobos and Tigrus Pattern used a different sized round and that's mentioned in FW books. Unless your going to claim that isn't a GW published game book?
Ultimately though this gets to why 40k is a setting not a story. It's like a painting, people are going to interpret it differently and that interpretation may change if addition information about the painting and artist are provided.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:25:40
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
...Except the people who write the tie-in novels are the same people who write the game. The issue is that not even GW writers take the game seriously into consideration for writing because it's a game. It's a meaningless abstraction that has no bearing on the actual universe because of its obviously limiting factors, forced to be at least somewhat balanced so it's playable. And the novels are full of variation on boltgun ammunition, as the entire point of the boltgun is the sheer variety of ammunition that can be loaded in it, from subsonic "meatgrinder" rounds for fighting fodder like zombies to hypersonic armor piercing kraken rounds. Likewise the boltgun weight itself can vary, as a heavier weapon will have less recoil.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Except in GW published books, there is mention of different calibers. The Older Phobos and Tigrus Pattern used a different sized round and that's mentioned in FW books. Unless your going to claim that isn't a GW published game book?
And were one of those for marines and another for non marines?
...Except the people who write the tie-in novels are the same people who write the game.
Most of the time they aren't. And FFG team was of course completely different.
The issue is that not even GW writers take the game seriously into consideration for writing because it's a game. It's a meaningless abstraction that has no bearing on the actual universe because of its obviously limiting factors, forced to be at least somewhat balanced so it's playable. And the novels are full of variation on boltgun ammunition, as the entire point of the boltgun is the sheer variety of ammunition that can be loaded in it, from subsonic "meatgrinder" rounds for fighting fodder like zombies to hypersonic armor piercing kraken rounds. Likewise the boltgun weight itself can vary, as a heavier weapon will have less recoil.
Yes, these different bolts exist in the Inquisitor RPG too. And everyone can use them, just like everyone can use the different bolters. It quite precise game, it is not just an abstraction there.
Oh, and in 40KDW have rules for different bolter ammo, so it is something that is represented in rules. If they think that an adamantium tip is a thing that requires writing different rules, then sure as hell massive difference in calibre would too!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:29:46
Except they do use larger bolt ammunition. Most human bolters are chambered in .50 caliber. Marine calibers start at .60 from the Crusade and move up to .75. Likewise human boltguns are notably weaker than astartes bolters, which can punch 7'6" objects weighing hundreds of kilos clean off their feet and send them flying. The inquisitor game is also ancient and not even in print anymore, I'd hardly consider anything it of any value as a source of information given its age and dead-ness. Especially when we know that caliber size varies substantially in 40k, or even the make of a weapon.
Hey, at least it is a proper GW game! And FFG stuff is out of print too. There is zero indication in any studio material that bolters use different calibre ammunition.
People who read all this tie in stuff have so different view of the setting. Most of it don't really seem to describe the same setting than one where the 40K tabletop game takes place. It's like with Star Wars, people who read all the expanded universe books had completely different idea of the setting than those that just watched the films.
In any case, I'm gonna trust my GW published game books in this matter, YMMV.
40k is larger than the codices you know. And all of it is canon. At this point I am starting to think you are just trolling here. You jump into threads on 40k background only to contradict the most basic aspects of 40k background? 1. The larger than normal size of Space Marine weapons has been a part of the fluff since like forever and has been mentioned numerous times and never contradicted. 2. Models and rules are not indicative of the fluff. Because according to the rules and models Space Marines would be smaller than normal humans, Cadians would be deformed gorilla-like creatures instead of humans and intercontinental missiles in 40k would have a range of no more than a few metres. The rules are their own reality and while they are inspired by 40k fluff they are meant to reflect game balance rather than the "reality" of the 40k universe. Models are just models, they are meant to look nice, not realistic. They aren't even consistently scaled or proportioned.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:36:04
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2018/10/24 01:35:07
Subject: Re:Are inquisitors Human or Space Marine?
At this point I'm going to agree to disagree. We are both backed by written sources and there is no clear indication that any book or median is more canon than the others from GW. So it comes down to personal interpretation. To me it makes sense that a Marine/anyone in power armor would fire a larger caliber than an un enhanced human. Your don't agree and that's fine.
Except in GW published books, there is mention of different calibers. The Older Phobos and Tigrus Pattern used a different sized round and that's mentioned in FW books. Unless your going to claim that isn't a GW published game book?
And were one of those for marines and another for non marines?
...Except the people who write the tie-in novels are the same people who write the game.
Most of the time they aren't. And FFG team was of course completely different.
The issue is that not even GW writers take the game seriously into consideration for writing because it's a game. It's a meaningless abstraction that has no bearing on the actual universe because of its obviously limiting factors, forced to be at least somewhat balanced so it's playable. And the novels are full of variation on boltgun ammunition, as the entire point of the boltgun is the sheer variety of ammunition that can be loaded in it, from subsonic "meatgrinder" rounds for fighting fodder like zombies to hypersonic armor piercing kraken rounds. Likewise the boltgun weight itself can vary, as a heavier weapon will have less recoil.
Yes, these different bolts exist in the Inquisitor RPG too. And everyone can use them, just like everyone can use the different bolters. It quite precise game, it is not just an abstraction there.
Oh, and in 40KDW have rules for different bolter ammo, so it is something that is represented in rules. If they think that an adamantium tip is a thing that requires writing different rules, then sure as hell massive difference in calibre would too!
Which is again irrelevant because rules exist for balance and thus aren't sources for anything. Space Marines can't have boltguns rifing S6 ammunition because it would completely invalidate the cost and purposes of other weapon choices along with providing an absolute headache to balance. It's why Deathwatch rounds got folded into generic 'special issue ammo' and master crafted bolters just became -1 ap, because what existed before was even then too complex and needlessly tedious for an efficient game.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
DW do have rules forxseparste ammo types. Rules are abstraction but still offer an apprximation, a weapon with higher stats in the game is a more powerful weapon in the setting too. As for Marines generally carrying bigger weapons than normal humans, they do. It is highly unusual for a normal human to carry a bolter at all, it is a rarity as it is predominantly a marine weapon. But they don't make different mini bolters for those rare occasions.
I don't understand where this debate could go. The only time a "human sized" bolter that had it's caliber clearly stated as far as I'm aware, it was the Sister of Battle bolter and it fires the same caliber than the Space Marine one. In fact, it clearly mentions that the Sister of Battle bolter is actually even better than the ones most commonly used by Space Marines (maybe this superior quality comes in the shape of lighter weight and lower recoil which would make sense). Thus, the "human sized" bolter is just as powerful if not even more thanks to superior quality. Sisters can use their bolters without their power armors as it has been done in Faith and Fire. Considering that the Inquisition can have access to the very best equipment, they can have access to mastercrafted version of the Sister's bolter or even personaly customised bolters built according to their own preferences. Arguing with rules is rather difficult for they are indeed bound by gameplay and balance instead of narrative consistency or "rule of cool". It's good to note that GW makes fluff for it's rules and not the other way around. In the same fashion, they make fluff for models and armies not models and armies for fluff. They are a game company first and foremost afterall.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 03:03:26
In the Horus Heresy Rules, Imperialis Militia Grenadiers (unagmented veteran humans) are all able to be equipped with Bolters. I don’t really see a problem with unagmented humans using them, they may just not be able to snap fire as well as Astartes, or fire from the hip accurately. I would imagine they would need to brace themselves, Fire a few rounds semi-auto, the move again. Definetly no full auto
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
Bolt weapons do come in different caliber, they’re talked about in one of the Caiphus Cain novels when somebody offers him a bolt weapon to replace his Las weapon, he turns down the extra power for his Las Pistol’s reliability.
Different caliber is mentioned again in the Ragnar Blackmane series when the difference between a Bolt Pistol and a Boltgun is explained. Mentioned, mostly they talk about the Bolt Pistol’s insane kickback, kickback that even a Space Marine in Power Armour struggles with.
There are plenty of examples of big power gaps not being represented on the tabletop.
Canis Wolfborn had the strength to put down Space Marines before getting his Space Marine upgrade, he is Strength 4 just like almost every other Space Marine.
Harold Deathwolf’s thunderwolf Icefang is bigger and stronger than normal thunderwolves but he still has the normal thunderwolf statline.
The tabletop game simply doesn’t have the ability to express the differences so they go on averages.
Special Issue Ammunition has to be different no matter how minute the differences are - they’re kind of half the Deathwatch’s selling point.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
You cant post pictures of high ranking Catachans as evidence of what a typical human is capable of.
These guys are bigger and stronger than Attitude Era WWE wrestlers, Schwarzenegger and the like. They are almost space marine in scale and proportion, but missing the augmentations.
Just because one of the best Catachans can apparently use a space marine mark bolt gun doesn't mean other humans could.
We have seen scalability in imperial tech where the same weapon is available in different sizes (e.g infantry vs vehicle models), so I would not be so fast to dismiss smaller 'low kickback' bolt guns for 'lesser' infantry.
Remember, each Astartes bolter is a lovingly handcrafted artefact. I'm sure a lesser wielder will use a gun with a proportionally lesser amount of artifice / production.
All the FFG material (and the new RPGs, for that matter) may be licences, but they're also approved; to think that the material was published without someone at GW looking over it first is laughable. Add to that that some of the FFG books were contributed to by Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh (and others), so there's a fairly close relationship there.
"but that Catachan officer has the same pattern of boltgun as a Space Marine"
Possibly, possibly not. There's plenty of evidence of visually-identical equipment being of different patterns (see the Imperial Armour books from Forge World). A different internal mechanism or being made of different materials would make it a different pattern too.
nareik wrote: You cant post pictures of high ranking Catachans as evidence of what a typical human is capable of.
These guys are bigger and stronger than Attitude Era WWE wrestlers, Schwarzenegger and the like. They are almost space marine in scale and proportion, but missing the augmentations.
Just because one of the best Catachans can apparently use a space marine mark bolt gun doesn't mean other humans could.
We have seen scalability in imperial tech where the same weapon is available in different sizes (e.g infantry vs vehicle models), so I would not be so fast to dismiss smaller 'low kickback' bolt guns for 'lesser' infantry.
Remember, each Astartes bolter is a lovingly handcrafted artefact. I'm sure a lesser wielder will use a gun with a proportionally lesser amount of artifice / production.
agreed, using catachans as examples of "typical" is like using the olympic weight lifting record (which right now is just under 1043 pounds) as what an average person can lift
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Seriously though, moving back to the original question I don't think there's any rule that says "a space marine can't be an inqusitor" but I suspect a space marine, by their very anture are ill suited for the kind of, oft subtle work, of an Inqusitor.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
agreed, using catachans as examples of "typical" is like using the olympic weight lifting record (which right now is just under 1043 pounds) as what an average person can lift
'Typical' humans do not use bolters. They're rare ans precious weapons outside Adeptus Astartes. Inquisitors or even veteran guardsemen are normal humans but not typical humans, they're hardened warriors and have physical abilities far above the average.
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epronovost wrote: I don't understand where this debate could go. The only time a "human sized" bolter that had it's caliber clearly stated as far as I'm aware, it was the Sister of Battle bolter and it fires the same caliber than the Space Marine one. In fact, it clearly mentions that the Sister of Battle bolter is actually even better than the ones most commonly used by Space Marines (maybe this superior quality comes in the shape of lighter weight and lower recoil which would make sense). Thus, the "human sized" bolter is just as powerful if not even more thanks to superior quality. Sisters can use their bolters without their power armors as it has been done in Faith and Fire. Considering that the Inquisition can have access to the very best equipment, they can have access to mastercrafted version of the Sister's bolter or even personaly customised bolters built according to their own preferences. Arguing with rules is rather difficult for they are indeed bound by gameplay and balance instead of narrative consistency or "rule of cool". It's good to note that GW makes fluff for it's rules and not the other way around. In the same fashion, they make fluff for models and armies not models and armies for fluff. They are a game company first and foremost afterall.
Yes, thank you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 10:50:21
epronovost wrote: I guess if I had to chose, I find stupid the idea that a light weapon designed for a slightly larger human cannot be manipulated by a hearty normal human being.
This would be a pretty good argument if it weren't for a different problem. It's good because marines could benefit from having relatively light and compact relative to their size because they are assault troops operating in tight spaces so they use a carbine sized weapon for the same reasons anyone does.
So the argument is that a light marine weapon would be a heavy human weapon for a strong human.
The issue is that the argument rests on the premise that marines are only slightly larger humans. Up-thread, Volt said that marines are 7'6", which would be 30% bigger than a fairly average human man. So for the argument to work you need to convince everyone that instead marines are 16% bigger than a human man.
Do you understand what licenced material means? It is not produced by GW.
also, what do you mean by implying that GW is different from licensed material? I understand that you mean what GW studio writes is true or better verified, but fundamentally it's still derivative merchandising. The original work is completely separate from what they do now. It's not like it's Priestly & co doing the work today, and even if it were, it's not like what an artist does afterward has any effect. Plenty of authors and artists have made brilliant work and gone on to make bizarre twaddle as a followup, using the same setting and characters. They have to pay their bills, after all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/27 00:11:22
epronovost wrote: I guess if I had to chose, I find stupid the idea that a light weapon designed for a slightly larger human cannot be manipulated by a hearty normal human being.
The issue is that the argument rests on the premise that marines are only slightly larger humans. Up-thread, Volt said that marines are 7'6", which would be 30% bigger than a fairly average human man. So for the argument to work you need to convince everyone that instead marines are 16% bigger than a human man.
Well the premise is true, Space Marines are not really 7 and a half foot tall, they are 7 foot tall, in armor, on average. An average sized elite soldiers will probably be above the six foot mark making the difference in size of about 15%, maybe even less. A six foot and half muscular Catashan is only a little smaller than a Space Marine. Considering that bolters are basically pretty much the size of light rifle for a Space Marine, that 15% isn't a big issue. A heavy bolter is too big for a normal human who isn't wearing a power armor, but a regular bolter is probably not a big issue.
You don't have to convince me of that that's fine. For the argument to work though you have to convince everyone else, and according to lots of people a marine is 8' tall or more.
Then this is a thread about inquisitors, so they might not be elite soldiers, there will be more average size people and more of them will be women, so realistically they'll be moderately tall if they're even 5'10", and of course there are lots of men who could become inquisitors who are 5'6"
That means someone in this thread is comparing, in their mind, a bone average size human, under six feet tall, to the cockamamie notion that marines are 8 feet tall.
To my mind, the short pattern weapon used by a marine who is an inch or two under the marine average of 210cm makes a pretty good game rifle for a 6'2" 230lb navy seal. Like I said though, you don't have to convince me.
Actually, I don't even need to convince those who believe Space Marne are significantly larger than what is commonly stated about them. Humans do have access to bolters and use them with and without armors. The most avid humans using bolters are Sisters, all women, and their specific boltgun fires projectiles of the same caliber than theSpace Marines one's. It's probable that Space Marines bolters are indeed uncomfortable even impossible to use for many humen, but that's probably mostly due for ergonomic reason not practical one's. As guns can be adjusted for size difference between small and large adults without impacting their performances to a significant degree, the same probably hold true for boltguns. They are adaptable weapons afterall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/27 01:45:27
Dakka Wolf wrote: Bolt weapons do come in different caliber, they’re talked about in one of the Caiphus Cain novels when somebody offers him a bolt weapon to replace his Las weapon, he turns down the extra power for his Las Pistol’s reliability.
Different caliber is mentioned again in the Ragnar Blackmane series when the difference between a Bolt Pistol and a Boltgun is explained. Mentioned, mostly they talk about the Bolt Pistol’s insane kickback, kickback that even a Space Marine in Power Armour struggles with.
There are plenty of examples of big power gaps not being represented on the tabletop.
Canis Wolfborn had the strength to put down Space Marines before getting his Space Marine upgrade, he is Strength 4 just like almost every other Space Marine.
Harold Deathwolf’s thunderwolf Icefang is bigger and stronger than normal thunderwolves but he still has the normal thunderwolf statline.
The tabletop game simply doesn’t have the ability to express the differences so they go on averages.
Special Issue Ammunition has to be different no matter how minute the differences are - they’re kind of half the Deathwatch’s selling point.
Agreed. There will be difference between even different lasgun patterns, they're just not big enough to show up in the tabletop game - but do in rpgs. The differences between various power armour marks is another case in point.
In the rpgs and black library books (including those written by current or ex design studio types like gav thorpe) a difference in power in favour of astartes weapons is not an uncommon theme. I'm not convinced the difference needed to be as pronounced as FFG made it - marine bolters being closer to heavy bolters than everyone else's weapons - but it does make sense. Stepping outside ideas of rules: the astartes legions are quite a bit bigger and much stronger than normal humans: not giving them a more powerful standard weapon which took advantage of that would be an odd choice
The imperium being as huge as it is and a patchwork of exceptions like it is (if you're "one in a million" there's an entire planet full of people better than you...) I'd be hesitant to say that a space marine inquisitor wouldn't exist, just that they'd be an odd exception, not the rule.
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2018/10/27 12:33:20
Subject: Re:Are inquisitors Human or Space Marine?
the astartes legions are quite a bit bigger and much stronger than normal humans: not giving them a more powerful standard weapon which took advantage of that would be an odd choice
But they did. That's the bolter. They're not armed with lasguns or autoguns. It just happens that some, quite rare, normal humans can use those bolters too. There are not regiments of bolter-armed guardsmen that need weaker toy bolters. Closest is the SoB, but their bolters explicitly have the same calibre than the marine bolters. No one is arguing that private Perkins could just grab a bolter and shoot with it without dislodging his shoulder; but no one is gonna give private Perkins a bolter in the first place. It is a prestigious weapon for heroes. However, sergeant Armstrong and Inquisitor Stahlman can handle the bolter just fine, being hard as nails experienced veterans and way above average man in their physical capabilities.
pelicaniforce wrote: That's right. A marine can fire a bolter one handed while running, even though it's a very big weapon. For them it's a very small weapon.
A muscular human can fire a bolter with both hands if they're standing still to brace themselves. For them it's a large weapon.
Just to add some RW examples:
.50 cal Kord MG fired on the move:
Kord firing properly:
So while _trained_to_do_so_ person can get away with firing _some_ too heavy weapon - it's neither efficient nor easy. And UNTRAINED person most probably will be injured.
Just for comparision and some prettiness : average-sized* girl firing 50 cal sniper rifle** and Kord MG (1:37)
(* 50 KG - 110 pounds)
(** same ammo - 12.7x108).
Bobthehero wrote: Well if Gun Jesus can fire a semi auto 20mm (a bit bigger than a bolt round) grenade launcher without breaking his shoulder, firing a boltgun shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Yes, a grenade launcher which fires rounds at 310m/s. Boltguns fire supersonic to hypersonic bolts, with velocities ranging from 1,000 m/s to 3,000m/s. A human could probably handle a boltgun of lower caliber firing supersonic rounds, but one firing hypersonic rounds on auto should be reducing their arm to to a crumpled mess of mulched shoulder-blade.
I'm sure you intended to put up three pictures of people who are hauling non-bolter weapons (some of whom are explicitly using exo-skeletal supports) to make the argument that astartes patterned bolters are healthy for everyone.
Those weapons are obviously way larger, heavier and bigger have recoil* than any boltgun would, so if normal people can use them, they obviously can use a boltgun too. Also, there are no Astartes pattern bolters outside FFG. Primaris boltguns are Cawl pattern and there is nothing suggest normal humans could not use those either (if they could somehow get them, and an Inquisitor could) they're still smaller than heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.
(*Stubbers do not have two stage firing process like gyro based bolt weapons. The firer has to absorb all the energy.)
That's not how guns work. Unless you know what round is being firing you have no idea what the recoil is going to be like. Do you think a standard AR-15 model has the same kick as an AR-15 chambered in .50 Beowulf have the same kick or punch? Or that the M60 packs a bigger punch than a Mauser 98 chambered in win mag?
Ammunition decides the real power of a gun, not the gun itself. All the gun does is set a fixed limit on the caliber of the round.
Yeah I like to think humans use less powerful rounds in their SM equivalent weapons. I don't game so the rules make no difference in my imagination. I just paint and read the books, so in my world I'm all good.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 