Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?

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**Spectral Ceramite**

I haven't read any before so..sry.

Only thing I really hope is Grey Knights get their smite changed to like Tzeetch or changed period to something else and points etc. Some change so I can actually play them, without my opponent feeling sry for me if play them

Obviously points changes for a lot of other factions etc.

**Marmatag**

I would imagine Shining Spears will get nerfed.

Ynnari are a design problem. Acting out of phase makes the game weird. If you shoot in the assault phase, and character targeting restrictions are present in the shooting phase, what happens? As an example.

I would like to see their rules completely redone, and allow them to be taken in Harlequins /Eldar / Dark Eldar detachments without corrupting the keyword.

For example, you could have any of the Triumvirate of Ynnead as an HQ in a <Kabal> detachment without losing the <Kabal> keyword benefits.

**Oaksandtea**

I would appreciate some steps to make Wraithknights viable. I certainly understand the situation they were in the last edition and I have no desire to go back there.

Oh and perhaps fiddling with the costs of Dire Avengers/corsairs (any sort of expansion of the corsair forces would be more than welcome, even utterly stupid over costed ones)

**ClockworkZion**

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I haven't read any before so..sry.

Only thing I really hope is Grey Knights get their smite changed to like Tzeetch or changed period to something else and points etc. Some change so I can actually play them, without my opponent feeling sry for me if play them

Obviously points changes for a lot of other factions etc.

Grey Knights, and basically all Marines in general, need a points adjustment and a look at how they tank wounds in this edition to be solid. GK are basically all the problems of regular Marines cranked to 11 so it's no shock that they are having problems.

I don't feel they need to be the loyalist equivilant of Thousand Sons in terms of smite as much as I feel like they should have stronger bonuses against daemons, monsters and chaos keywords. You know, to play up that knightly hero aspect they have.

**Marmatag**

Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

**Spectral Ceramite**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I haven't read any before so..sry.

Only thing I really hope is Grey Knights get their smite changed to like Tzeetch or changed period to something else and points etc. Some change so I can actually play them, without my opponent feeling sry for me if play them

Obviously points changes for a lot of other factions etc.

Grey Knights, and basically all Marines in general, need a points adjustment and a look at how they tank wounds in this edition to be solid. GK are basically all the problems of regular Marines cranked to 11 so it's no shock that they are having problems.

I don't feel they need to be the loyalist equivilant of Thousand Sons in terms of smite as much as I feel like they should have stronger bonuses against daemons, monsters and chaos keywords. You know, to play up that knightly hero aspect they have.

They can't have rules against a certain faction anymore (like back in the day with summon rules counter etc) because has no affect if they fight Imperial guard, tau etc. I think they need some changes that are generic (just to make them viable in matched and narrative play, you can add your own rules for narrative) and ye marines need a points adjustment in general.

**ClockworkZion**

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
They can't have rules against a certain faction anymore (like back in the day with summon rules) because has no affect if they fight Imperial guard, tau etc. I think they need some changes that are generic (just to make them viable in matched and narrative play, you can add your own rules for narrative) and ye marines need a points adjustment in general.

I didn't specify a single faction, and the three keywords I mentioned are among the most common keywords across many armies. I'd throw in the psyker keyword but that's more the Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence's turf and we need to leave some room for other factions in the game to have something special too.

That said, toning down how much they get charged for such bonuses would be very good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

I think it was supposed to be a call back to Codex Daemonhunters were there was a rule that let the Daemon player return defeated models to the table because the Grey Knights always fought where Daemonic incursions were the worst.

The problem is that the Grey Knights aren't effective enough against Daemons in their current form to justify such a balancing mechanic. Maybe if Nemesis Force Weapons always did 3 wounds to models with the Chaos, Daemon or Monster keyword and their baby smites turned into regular smites against Daemons or something then it'd matter, but as it is they just don't do enough to balance the mechanic.

**Bharring**

I expect Spears to go up a little. Enough to make them not OP, but not enough for people to stop claiming they're game-breaking-good. Like what they did with Reapers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I expect Dev Cents to go up in points. For tradition's sake.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
I would imagine Shining Spears will get nerfed.

Ynnari are a design problem. Acting out of phase makes the game weird. If you shoot in the assault phase, and character targeting restrictions are present in the shooting phase, what happens? As an example.

I would like to see their rules completely redone, and allow them to be taken in Harlequins /Eldar / Dark Eldar detachments without corrupting the keyword.

For example, you could have any of the Triumvirate of Ynnead as an HQ in a <Kabal> detachment without losing the <Kabal> keyword benefits.

Everything they do - some spell or stratagem can duplicate. You can do it only once per turn per type and they don't have any stratagems to shoot or fight again. They just get acess to these abilities a different way. It's not really broken. Or if it is - those spells and strats that do the same thing are broken. Like when nids fire hive gaurd 2 times - is that broken? I don't think so.

Now if hive guards gun was heavy 4 instead of heavy 2 - and they paid the same price...now that is broken. It's all about price. You fix shinning spears and reapers. No one plays ynnari. Cause what does ynnari do? It makes over overpowered units even better at the cost of making the rest of your army worse (you lose your army traits). Another way to fix ynnari would be to make a rule that all eldar detachments in an army must be ynnari to be battle forged.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I expect Spears to go up a little. Enough to make them not OP, but not enough for people to stop claiming they're game-breaking-good. Like what they did with Reapers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I expect Dev Cents to go up in points. For tradition's sake.

THEY ARE GAME BREAKINGLY GOOD.

Yeah - Cents going up for sure. Probably landspeeders too.

**Daedalus81**

Marmatag wrote:
== wrote:[== 765760 10202450 null]I think the problem with play testing is the fox guarding the hen house now. Some armies keep coming in underneath the radar like Ynnari.

Actually the playtesters have a great deal of integrity.

And GW is aware of Ynnari as a problem. The problem really is that they're defined in such a way that makes them unfair. You can't have a mechanic like soulburst and also be balanced, those two things are fundamentally at odds. It is highly likely that Ynnari are squatted (eventually), and the HQs are turned into generic DE/Eldar HQs, providing solid benefits but without the Ynnari nonsense.

Couldn't they just put the free actions behind a stratagem that scales up in cost like relics?

**The Newman**

Lemondish wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I fully expect GW to continue proving that they don't have a single clue what they're doing.

I'm hoping that they'll do something drastic to address what a terrible spot Marines are in, but I won't be a bit surprised if vanilla marines get nerfed down to GK levels and GK get rendered completely unplayable and GW puts out some sort of unintentionally hilarious statement about the awsome changes they made to help basic Marines and GK compete in the current meta because they write rules like a spastic chimp with the self awareness of frog spawn.

I also expect this thread to wind up as 20+ pages of such utter bile directed at GW and 40k that any new player who comes here looking for advice and reads through it will come away convinced that they're much better off going back to WoW or LoL or whatever they were doing before the cool plastic mens caught their attention.

My favourite part about this post is that it lacks self-awareness.

I invoke Poe's Law.

While I do sincerely hope GW addresses Space Marines and I don't have a lot of faith that GW recognizes just how much of a boost they actually need (or their ability fix it without breaking anything else), Chapter Approved and the FAQs are worlds away from the GW that published 5th edition when there were armies still limping along on their 3rd edition codexes.

The funny part about even this edit is that it also lacks self awareness. You're implying here that GW game designers are so incompetent that they will both fail to do enough and simultaneously do too much that it breaks the game. Ridiculous!

And I imagine you think you know exactly what is necessary. Mmhmm. Tell me more while I shake out this salt shaker

You don't know what Poe's law is do you.

It's not ridiculous when they've already done it. They stated flat-out that they were increasing the CP generation for Battalions and Brigades because elite armies that struggled with CPs needed more of a reward for using those structures, when anyone who's brain is at least mostly inside their skull could tell you that such a move rewards horde armies more than elite ones and leaves elite armies in a comparatively worse state than where they started.

I applaud GW for trying to improve their game balance over time, doubly so because they've never shown signs of caring before, while also recognizing that they've gotten off to a ham-handed start.

Now on the subject of how to fix it, this is exactly where that lack of faith I mentioned is coming from. Marines need to be significantly tougher for the points to be competitive, and GW has painted themselves into a corner there. Make them more than a little bit cheaper and they start making SoB look bad, make them more than a little bit tougher at the same point cost and they start making Death Guard look bad, and any change to the basic marine profile needs to be evaluated both in the context of a dozen armies and with an eye on how everything else in those armies stack up against the new profile. That's a tough needle to thread, with lots of opportunities to miss problems.

My personal suggestions are:
1) Apply chapter traits to everything, not just infantry, bikes, and dreads.
2) Add a 5+ Feel No Pain to all Marine infantry and bikes.
3) Add +1 toughness to all Marine vehicles.
4) Reduce the cost of Marine special and heavy weapons to the cost IG pays for the same gun.
5) Replace the Iron Hand chapter trait (which is why I suggest a 5+++ instead of a 6+++, I know from experience that a 6+++ isn't enough) with something else. Maybe a 5+ invuln for models with no invulns and a +1 (to a max of 3++) for models that have native invulns.

**ClockworkZion**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
== wrote:[== 765760 10202450 null]I think the problem with play testing is the fox guarding the hen house now. Some armies keep coming in underneath the radar like Ynnari.

Actually the playtesters have a great deal of integrity.

And GW is aware of Ynnari as a problem. The problem really is that they're defined in such a way that makes them unfair. You can't have a mechanic like soulburst and also be balanced, those two things are fundamentally at odds. It is highly likely that Ynnari are squatted (eventually), and the HQs are turned into generic DE/Eldar HQs, providing solid benefits but without the Ynnari nonsense.

Couldn't they just put the free actions behind a stratagem that scales up in cost like relics?

I could see that. "If a Ynarri unit is within 6" of another unit that is destroyed this turn it may move as if it were the movement phase, shoot as if it was the shooting phase or fight as if it were the fight phase. A unit that has been chosen for this stratagem can not be chosen twice in the same turn." and then charge 1 CP, with Yvrainne doing it once per turn for free or something. This would bring it down to 2-3 times a player turn and would make it less powerful without completely breaking Ynnari, I think.

**Elbows**

Please don't get Xeno started on another non-stop tirade against Shining Spears. A year of that has been more than enough.

For Chapter Approved 2018, I'm more concerned about ignored units than powerful ones being nerfed. There are loads of sub-par units in the codices which are just a points change from being fun and useful, even cool. To list a few on the Eldar side of things:

-Support Weapons. I've never seen one on a table, and it's understandable. Their weapons are mediocre and their cost is eye-watering. However, it's never mentioned in threads or posts...so will an ignored unit like this be given any attention? Or will only major and popular units seen (or conspicuously not seen) at tournaments be considered?

-Falcon Grav Tank. It's not bad, but it's not great. It's outshone by the Wave Serpent. Now the Wave Serpent could be nixxed a bit, but some minor attention to the Falcon would be nice (honestly just granting the move-half, shooting twice turret would be fine, etc.)

-Scorpions and Banshees. Decent stats, but outshone by the obnoxious 5-attack Ork Boyz syndrom of 8th. They're not in as bad shape as Space Marine Assault Marines, but 8th made some units stupidly strong when they shouldn't be, and thus made an entire range of units pointless because they don't measure up to a meagre Ork boy. Again though, stuff like Banshees and Scorpions are often ignored, so I don't see them being fixed/aided in an update.

-The Wraithknight - though this one does seem a bit conspicuous. It's unmitigated trash...even in a Narrative setting, which is unfortunate.

-Warp Spiders are shockingly mediocre. No real "reason" to take them like you find with some other Aspects. Could use some attention.

-The Avatar. Never really mentioned, but an absolute travesty at 250 points. It is still being penalized for having an old 2nd edition smaller model...and is a joke compared to what it should be. It needs a massive points reduction, or needs to be ramped up to proper Greater Daemon stat levels as it used to be.

etc.

**ClockworkZion**

Wraith Guard/Lord/Knight units in general are sadly mediocre. Which is a shame because I'd get behind building a Ynarri army focused around them.

**Xenomancers**

Elbows wrote:
Please don't get Xeno started on another non-stop tirade against Shining Spears. A year of that has been more than enough.

For Chapter Approved 2018, I'm more concerned about ignored units than powerful ones being nerfed. There are loads of sub-par units in the codices which are just a points change from being fun and useful, even cool. To list a few on the Eldar side of things:

-Support Weapons. I've never seen one on a table, and it's understandable. Their weapons are mediocre and their cost is eye-watering. However, it's never mentioned in threads or posts...so will an ignored unit like this be given any attention? Or will only major and popular units seen (or conspicuously not seen) at tournaments be considered?

-Falcon Grav Tank. It's not bad, but it's not great. It's outshone by the Wave Serpent. Now the Wave Serpent could be nixxed a bit, but some minor attention to the Falcon would be nice (honestly just granting the move-half, shooting twice turret would be fine, etc.)

-Scorpions and Banshees. Decent stats, but outshone by the obnoxious 5-attack Ork Boyz syndrom of 8th. They're not in as bad shape as Space Marine Assault Marines, but 8th made some units stupidly strong when they shouldn't be, and thus made an entire range of units pointless because they don't measure up to a meagre Ork boy. Again though, stuff like Banshees and Scorpions are often ignored, so I don't see them being fixed/aided in an update.

-The Wraithknight - though this one does seem a bit conspicuous. It's unmitigated trash...even in a Narrative setting, which is unfortunate.

-Warp Spiders are shockingly mediocre. No real "reason" to take them like you find with some other Aspects. Could use some attention.

-The Avatar. Never really mentioned, but an absolute travesty at 250 points. It is still being penalized for having an old 2nd edition smaller model...and is a joke compared to what it should be. It needs a massive points reduction, or needs to be ramped up to proper Greater Daemon stat levels as it used to be.

etc.

I'll shut up about spears. It's kind of hard when people cry about ynnari though.

Support weapons aren't terrible. D cannons are worth their 75 - the other two need damage to go up considerably. Something cool with these things that I wish they would do. Is have them act as a shield for any unit within 3 " of them. Maybe giving them the bodyguard ability.

Falcon needs a point drop

WK needs to go down 100 points - sword and board 130 points

Warp spiders aren't bad but their weapon needs a little love - perhaps have them always wound on 2's.

Scorpions and banshees need more attacks - think you are onto the right idea there.

Avatar is garbage - drop 50 points.

**Bharring**

Scorpions got fubared by the rules.

They're Assault Marines who trade Jumppack/Fly for Infiltrate.

Infiltrate became a poor Deep Strike, making them a downgrade.

Deep Strike changes made Deep Strike even more pointless for a unit that wants to Infiltrate.

Now they're just ASM who trade Jumppack/Fly for nothing.

They don't need a points change: they need different rules.

Banshees are a different animal. They do their job just about well enough. There isn't a lot of demand for their job. And Spears do it better. An extra attack might help them, but doesn't change much: they're still wounding Marines on 5s.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should be clearer: neither Scorps nor Banshees are designed for, nor should be designed for, use as a frontline assault unit. The closest thing CWE has to that is probably the Storm Guardian. Which, even if it weren't bad, probably wouldn't see a lot of use. (There was a CWE tournament-winning list that focused on CC and took a bunch of Guardians - even that list took Defenders, not storm.)

**ClockworkZion**

Striking Scorpiopns really should deploy like Space Marine Scouts do instead of how they work now.

**Xenomancers**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Striking Scorpiopns really should deploy like Space Marine Scouts do instead of how they work now.

That would be a great change for them.

**Bharring**

Agreed.

I like the tradeoff of "rocket strapped to my back" vs "Sneak up to you". I like both ASM and Scorpions. A lot of the rules dovetail well to make them just about equal, same general use, but different ways of doing it. Until Scorp infiltrate was killed.

Sometimes, I want my skirmishers to jet around the board. Other times I want to plan how to get my skirmishers past my enemy's line. Unfortunately both suck right now.

Any buff to Scorpion's CC ability I hope gets put into the ASM too.

**bullyboy**

Ynnari just need either a complete rework with codex or mostly rules removed as an option for regular Aeldari. For the latter, A Ynnari army can add detachments from other factions as normal, but they keep their normal rules (masques, craftworld traits etc), but then Strength from Death only works for the Yncarne (why should it work for regular Eldar anyway?). The Yncarne should start with just moderate stats that start to get better the more times it triggers strength from death. Yvraine still gets her spell deck as normal.

So now, you can still have Ynnari, but your spears and reapers can only benefit from doing something twice due to psychic power. I could really see the Yncarne becoming a beast though if it gets to be close to more death and destruction (as it should be)

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
Scorpions got fubared by the rules.

They're Assault Marines who trade Jumppack/Fly for Infiltrate.

Infiltrate became a poor Deep Strike, making them a downgrade.

Deep Strike changes made Deep Strike even more pointless for a unit that wants to Infiltrate.

Now they're just ASM who trade Jumppack/Fly for nothing.

They don't need a points change: they need different rules.

Banshees are a different animal. They do their job just about well enough. There isn't a lot of demand for their job. And Spears do it better. An extra attack might help them, but doesn't change much: they're still wounding Marines on 5s.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should be clearer: neither Scorps nor Banshees are designed for, nor should be designed for, use as a frontline assault unit. The closest thing CWE has to that is probably the Storm Guardian. Which, even if it weren't bad, probably wouldn't see a lot of use. (There was a CWE tournament-winning list that focused on CC and took a bunch of Guardians - even that list took Defenders, not storm.)

Eldar don't work like that. Gardians aren't front line units. They are used as sparingly as possible. In this sense aspect warriors and wraith units are front line. They don't die because they are 1000 year old veteran warriors.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
Ynnari just need either a complete rework with codex or mostly rules removed as an option for regular Aeldari. For the latter, A Ynnari army can add detachments from other factions as normal, but they keep their normal rules (masques, craftworld traits etc), but then Strength from Death only works for the Yncarne (why should it work for regular Eldar anyway?). The Yncarne should start with just moderate stats that start to get better the more times it triggers strength from death. Yvraine still gets her spell deck as normal.

So now, you can still have Ynnari, but your spears and reapers can only benefit from doing something twice due to psychic power. I could really see the Yncarne becoming a beast though if it gets to be close to more death and destruction (as it should be)

Sounds a lot worse than armies that can just spend cp to shoot or fight twice.

**Elbows**

Disclaimer: Eldar rant within, skip if desired.

Yep, Guardians should be rear-echelon emergency troops only. The squad leaders in a Guardian squad would often be an Eldar who had previously trod the path of an Aspect Warrior shrine, but no longer summons their war face (more or less). Eldar's general accelerated heartbeat, reaction speed, and precision means that even a normal Eldar is a capable militia fighter - equal to an Imperial Guardsman (who, by contrast are trained and current infantry). Guardians shouldn't be WS/BS 3+ though, they should return to 4+. WS/BS of 3+ should be strictly reserved for dedicated/excelling warriors, ala Space Marines or Aspect Warriors.

You could argue that Eldar don't even have "front line" troops as that's not really how they would fight. But normal incursions should be predominantly Aspect Warriors assisted by scouts and psykers. Guardians (if even present) could be driving the tanks, firing the artillery, driving the transports etc. They'd only be called up on a serious full war footing, or if fighting in defence of the Craftworld itself.

A normal Eldar engagement would be more of a type of raid - with scouts and psykers helping Aspect Warriors appear out of nowhere and strike hard/fast before disappearing. Some exceptions would be Saim-Hann who are very tribal in their war making, and whose citizen militia would be more prone to joining in on the fun - and likewise the Ulthwe who have a much more common use of Guardians because of their constant warring around the proximity of the Eye of Terror. Their advanced training would make them more akin to Dire Avengers than normal Guardians and they would likely be used more openly/offensively.

Storm Guardians (which should just be...Guardians) would basically be a militia unit armed with close combat weapons solely due to the nature of their environment...i.e. fighting in a densely packed interior of a Craftworld, they would opt for close combat weapons in place of longer shuriken catapults. They're still not front line combat units who'd be leading an attack (except in desperate circumstances).

____

Of course, almost none of this has any impact on how people play 40K or use Eldar.

**Daedalus81**

Thousand Sons

- Drop Rubrics to base of 13
- Make flamers viable
- Give terminators in general some help
- Drop costs on dreadnoughts

That is all I'm looking for.

**Bharring**

Disclaimer: Moar Eldar discussion, following said rant. Skip if desired. Unless you're Elbows.

The frontline troop of CWE are Ork WAAAAGHs and IoM stupidity.

When I said "The closest thing CWE has" to a frontline assualt unit, I meant the closest thing CWE has to a frontline assault unit.

Guardians are used sparingly. But so are Aspect Warriors and Wraiths. Aside from some Biel-Tan, CWE use direct engagements sparingly. But there are far more Guardians than Aspect Warriors. And fewer still Honoured Dead (Wraiths).

Guardians should be militia. Used because they're necessary. The Shuriken Catapault should be treated like a sidearm: the purpose of the squad is boots on the ground, manning weapon emplacements, and bringing specialists to bear (not the same as bringing a specialized combat unit to bear).

I wholeheartedly agree on the WS/BS thing. Guardians are often untrained - so should be WS/BS4+ - an untrained Space Elf is as skilled/accurate as a trained human. But not as skilled as a Super Human Soldier.

If CWE had the Aspect Warriors in the numbers they needed, the Aspect Warriors would be the frontline units. In the fluff, it's usually claimed that the bulk of a warhost are Guardians. So they do the bulk of the fighting. Aspects are used where available, but there are only so many to go around. Much like the IoM would rather fight engagements using Custodes and Knights, but there aren't enough - so they need the IG.

Storm Guardians would make more sense if both they and Defenders could pick Pistol/CCW or Catapault. Defenders to hold ground and man the heavy weapons. Storm Guardians for storming territory and bringing the close-range special weapons (melta, flamers) to bear. In theory, they have a place - in both fluff and mechanics. In practice, they're a terrible entry.

It is very true that Eldar have no 'heavy infantry' in the classic sense. No units designed to fight pitched battles or head-on engagements. But Guardians are *closer* to that concept than Aspect Warriors. If you try to use Storm Guardians as frontline CC units, the only person you're outplaying is the one trying to use Scorpions and Banshees as frontline CC units.

What really needs to happen to make Guardians look like less of a frontline unit is CWE needs to lose WWP. CWE units have the firepower and mobility to do great things. Clasically, their range has kept them in check. Now they don't have that weakness anymore. And who benefits from that more than a unit that can take 22 bodies and even leverage a strat for a 4++?

**Elbows**

Yep, I agree...and it's part of the issue with Guardians having a new WS/BS of 3+. They become better in many instances than Aspect Warriors which is simply wrong. You might not webway portal them if they were BS 4+, etc. You've all but murdered the reason for having Dire Avengers...where they could be genuinely decent troops if Guardians were slightly worse. It wouldn't hurt to drop a point or two on the Dire Avengers though. 12 is pushing it for a Toughness 3 model with 4+ armour...

It's the same reason you saw a big rise in Space Marine Scouts when they inexplicably became as good as Marines with a similar stat-line bump. Why remove the steps or tiers in an army? They exist for a reason. To provide options and more considerations when making an army.

**Marmatag**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Thousand Sons

- Drop Rubrics to base of 13

Are you kidding?

2+ save against 1 damage weapons
5++
Ignores penalty for moving and shooting heavy
Default gun is 4, -2, 1
Aspiring sorcerer has a 1/d3 smite
Extra attacks against Imperium on 6+
And an expanded wargear list with little restrictions

If this was 13 points then your regular marines would need to be 6 points.

**SHUPPET**

Eldarain wrote:I don't play them but some help for Grey Knights and Custodes(making it something more than codex jetbike) would be nice.

I'd prefer they take a crack at closing the gap between mono faction and soup but have accepted that they'll probably just crap on the units that soup is making egregious which will only have people slot in the currently next most broken unit.

No points changes can do this, and that's what they said was coming in CA. Any buff to any individual unit is a buff to soup. It sounds obvious enough, but if there's no disadvantage to taking allies, then there is only advantages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marmatag wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Thousand Sons

- Drop Rubrics to base of 13

Are you kidding?

2+ save against 1 damage weapons
5++
Ignores penalty for moving and shooting heavy
Default gun is 4, -2, 1
Aspiring sorcerer has a 1/d3 smite
Extra attacks against Imperium on 6+
And an expanded wargear list with little restrictions

If this was 13 points then your regular marines would need to be 6 points.

Regular marine would be about 8-10 to keep even with this change, and i thought thats about where we wanted them.

**Crimson**

Marmatag wrote:
It is highly likely that Ynnari are squatted (eventually), and the HQs are turned into generic DE/Eldar HQs, providing solid benefits but without the Ynnari nonsense.

It is the exact opposite of 'highly likely', there is zero chance of that happening. They might rework the rules completely, but the Ynnari are staying and there will be more of them.

**Karol**

Regular marine would be about 8-10 to keep even with this change, and i thought thats about where we wanted them.

So GK strikes would be 11-12, with weaker smite, weaker guns , no sorc, no debuff to shoting while moving etc right?

**Table**

ZergSmasher wrote:
Okay, I'm wishlisting here, but these are the things I'd like to see in CA2018 for the armies I play. I know that many/most of them probably won't happen this way, but it's actually fun to speculate.
Dark Angels (many of these would be good on Marines in general):
-Basic non-Primaris Marine bodies (Tacticals, Assault, Devastators) reduced to 11 points per model. Honestly, Assault Marines would probably still totally suck balls, but at least Tacticals might be viable as an alternative to Scouts.
-Scouts reduced to 10 points per model. Sniper Rifles reduced to 2 points. Camo Cloaks reduced to 1 point per model.
-Make Assault Marines have 2 attacks base. They are still 1 wound models and so would not totally step on the toes of Primaris Reivers or Inceptors.
-Reduce the costs of most of the special and heavy weapon options. Plasma is probably okay as is, but Flamers should cost 5, Meltaguns should be 10, Grav should also be 10 as it is weaker than Plasma. Grav-cannons should be 20 rather than the ludicrous 28 they currently are. They should also bring back the Grav-amp rerolls for the cannons to make them viable. Multi-melta should only cost like 15. Missile Launcher and Lascannon are probably okay as they are, but could come down to 20 without seriously breaking the game. Heavy Bolter is fine the way it is. Plasma Cannon should be slightly cheaper due to having variable number of shots.
-Get rid of the higher costs of special Primaris weapons on Intercessors and Hellblasters. Auto bolt rifles and stalkers should cost the same as the normal ones; ditto for the assault/heavy plasma incinerators. Stalker Bolt Rifles should also have a Sniper type rule (Mortal wounds on 6's to wound) or be increased to Heavy 2.
-Vehicles need to get access to Grim Resolve (or other Chapter Tactics in the case of vanilla marines). Every other army's traits affect all of their units pretty much, so why not Marines?
-Deathwing Terminators (indeed, all terminators in the game currently) need a special rule that says all incoming damage is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. This would make them less susceptible to being blinked out by autocannons, overcharged plasma, etc. They could probably use a points drop as well.
-Drop Pods should have to abide by the 9" rule, but their cargo should be able to get closer. This would give them a niche and might make them playable.
-A lot of stuff I haven't already mentioned need points drops too, notably Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, and Land Raiders. None of these are anywhere close to durable enough for their points, and for the first two, if they move they gimp their shooting, so they don't have the firepower to make up for their lack of durability.

Chaos Space Marines:
-Basic CSM squads reduced to 11 points per model, just like their loyalist counterparts need. They also need all of the same weapon price reductions. There's a reason you always see Cultists rather than Marines in competitive Chaos lists.
-Raptors and Warp Talons need both a price drop and to go to 2 attacks base.
-Possessed need either a built-in FnP type save, or a price drop, or both. They aren't terrible as is, but they lack a niche (Berzerkers are pretty much always better).
-Just like loyalists, the Legion Traits should apply to all units, not just certain ones. That might help make things like Predators and Forgefiends better in an Alpha Legion list, and would make Maulerfiends scary in a World Eaters or Renegades list (just to name some examples).
-Also like loyalists, a lot of units are overpriced, notably the Dinobots and Mutilators.
-Daemon Princes should probably get the same god allegiance rules as their Codex: Chaos Daemons counterparts (Unstoppable Ferocity for Khorne, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle, etc.). Perhaps even things like Possessed and Warp Talons should get these abilities as well.

Tau Empire:
-Crisis Suits need at least a 15 points reduction in the base cost, along with a reduction is cost for most if not all of their weapons. I think a good way to do this would be to give each weapon 2 costs: one for regular Crisis suits, another for Commanders. Similar to how many of the Support Systems cost different amounts depending on what is equipped with it.
-Stormsurge needs a price drop, or it needs the Battlesuit keyword so that Drones can protect it. I'd be okay with Savior Protocols requiring a 4+ instead of a 2+ for a Stormsurge (because it's big and hard to cover). What I'd love to see for a Surge is a new Stratagem for 2 or 3 CP that lets it shoot twice if it is anchored, but that's not going to happen.
-The Hammerhead's railgun needs to be 2d6 damage, or 4d3, or something. It's just so pathetic right now. Even just being flat 6 damage would be decent. Ion Cannon is both better AND cheaper, and that's a problem (here's hoping they don't increase the cost of Ion Cannons to compensate...).
-Pathfinders need a built-in -1 to be hit or something, as they are currently just too squishy to be good. It doesn't help that Markerlights in general are kind of meh.
-The Ghostkeel's stealth drones need a Character-like rule, as currently it's way too easy to just swat them and get rid of the suit's protection. Indeed, a lot of the drones typically taken singly (Pulse Accelerator, Grav-inhibitor, Guardian, Shadowsun's special ones) need this.

Imperial Knights:
-Castellan probably does need a points increase, but not a huge one. The CP increase to the Order of Companions strat already has weakened it, and it has to pay 3CP to use Rotate Ion Shields. I hope it doesn't have to pay for being a main ingredient of soup.
-Ion Bulwark should probably be ineligible for Rotate Ion Shields. No more 3++ saves on Knights would reduce the crazy durability and help keep them under control, while still being pretty good.
-I'm not sure but what the Stomping Feet need some kind of a rework, as there is currently almost never any reason to actually use a Knight's melee weapons. Maybe give the actual melee weapons an alternative profile, like how Mortarion and the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage are?

Daemons:
-All Greater Daemons need at least an 80 point drop, perhaps more. Especially now that Warp Surge has been capped at a 4++. They are currently priced into unplayability in competitive lists. Especially poor Kairos Fateweaver...
-Be'lakor probably also needs an 80 point drop. He was already overcosted in the Index, and then in the codex GW actually increased his cost. It's like they hate him.
-Several other units need varying price drops, including Bloodcrushers, Beasts of Nurgle, Screamers, Flamers, and also especially Soul Grinders.

Death Guard:
-Possessed should be T5 and have Disgustingly Resilient. They are Daemons of Nurgle in this codex, so their statline should reflect that. Likewise, Chaos Lords and Sorcerers should get this as well. Helbrutes and Defilers should probably get DR.
-Deathshroud Terminators should have some kind of reroll charges or something, because currently if they fail to get into combat, they'll just be kited forever.
-Plague Marines probably need to come down to 15 points per model.
-Death Guard psykers should have access to the normal CSM psychic powers as well as the Contagion ones, kind of like how Thousand Sons do. At least the actual Sorcerers should get this, even if Malignant Plaguecasters and Morty don't.

Space Wolves:
-TWC need something to help them get into combat better, as currently Wulfen outclass them completely. Maybe just a points reduction to make them easier to fit into a list would be enough, but reroll charges would be even better.
-Many of the same price reductions that vanilla Marines need are also needed for SW. Grey Hunters and Blood Claws should be 11 points, for example.
-Santa Grimnar needs to be able to hide. His main weakness in the sleigh is having more than 9 wounds.
-Wulfen should be able to ride in any transport (except perhaps the Repulsor), counting as 2 models as they normally do. They'd actually be good cargo for a Drop Pod if this were allowed.

These are just some of the thoughts I had, and I'm sure others have thought of the same things before.

1ksons get that extra access because they are the 1ksons. Its like giving their DP's DR because DG's have it. I do like most of the rest of what you typed here. For once I would love to see Possessed actually hit the tables outside of a (love the models/fluff) capacity. All demon engines need a point drop not just the Dinobots. Id say 20 off across the board. 4 WS/BS really hurts them and it shows because no one is running them in comp lists (that I am aware of).