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"They removed 11 wounds from my models."

3 5-man Tac squads in a 'Pod would have done the same thing. Including being likewise illegal, because only 2 can fit in a Pod (like only 2 Storm Guardian squads can DS). They would have done *much* more damage (Plasma vs Melta...), and would have survived more of a rebuttal.

The 6 Melta Guns would have averaged roughly 2 kills, for 4 wounds. The 18 Shuriken Pistol shots should average roughly 2 wounds. Doing 11 wounds when you should be averaging 6 is insane luck.

Warlock killing one is reasonable luck. A 1/9 chance of happening, but a single event, so much more likely.

The Farseer killing 2 though? They had to give the Farseer a crappy Relic Pistol, I don't recall if its 2 shots or 3, but each shot has a 1/9 chance of doing damage - so in addition to taking a crappy relic, they also had to get *insanely* lucky.

These things happen. I've had a Wave Serpent do 15 wounds to a Land Raider in one round, and have a FarSeer go next and finish it with her pistol. But they aren't indicative of balance. Farseers aren't great at killing Land Raiders just because I rolled hot that one time.

I'm not saying Storm Guardians aren't the best that Eldar have. I'm saying they're worse than most things out there, including most of GK's options.

Karol wrote:

Am not saying it is unfair. I said that saying that just because other armies got updates too and this time GK were not skiped in updates, like it happened with the past FAQs, suddenly makes GK good. If everyone gets a points drop, then nothing changes, other then people being made to buy more models. If eldar get more options to use more models, then just because Crow costs 80pts, GK do not become ok. It has nothing to do with fairness, but everything with how the change looks. How many units of lets say wind raiders can an eldar player take ? 2-3 right? This will change his list, as far as game play goes. Or at least I think so. How is the fact that a GM NDK cost less going to change the GK lists? The point drop is not enough to run a second one, and if you took draigo like me, the other HQ slot is full already. Neither the drop to the GM NDK, nor the Draigo gives enough points to run 2 battalions of GK. So more or less you get enough points to have a razorback "for free". Nothing in the game play changes, no new ways of playings come from it. And as stupid as I am, I think people will agree with me, that the GK game play is not something that could be described as working. Even if you added a "free razorback" to it.

It just doesn't work like that. The bad units were just not used in a competitive setting. This does not increase the overall Eldar power, it only makes the life of the Eldar players who were not cheese mongers and had those bad units a little bit easier.

It's like how everyone got so pissed that Eldar weren't nerfed at all in the spring FAQ.

Bharring wrote:
It's like how everyone got so pissed that Eldar weren't nerfed at all in the spring FAQ.

Isn't that when Reapers got nerfed?

This is the imperial guard edition.

If you save 100-200 points in your space marines army, that just means you can supplement more imperial guard. That's the way to do it.

And, since the imperial guard stuff got cheaper, you're better off.

You need to be thinking of Imperium with a "Guard First" mentality when building a competitive list. GK are definitely no exception. The best GK lists are about 900 points of guard for a reason. And they are still inferior to an all guard list.

Daedalus,
Among other nerfs, yes. But that's not how it's remembered.

Don't really understand the whinging against those Craftworld changes. Everything Craftworlds were spamming got a point increase and everything Craftworlds wouldn't touch with a 10 feet pole got a slight point adjustment. It's like GW is actually trying to balance the game; something everyone has been asking them for.

Hell, Shining Spears went up and they are the biggest gripe everyone and their mother had about Craftworlds. Are people seriously not wanting to balance all units out or is this just the usual "I want Craftworlds player to suffer for a 1000 years because I am salty"?

So far I am impressed by these changes. They are adjusting things, getting people to try out new combinations. I also liked that they increased the cost of Fire Dragons but reduced the price of Fusion gun as to make it more cost effective for non-Fire Dragon units(who have special abilities and good armor compared to Storm Guardians f.ex). As a Saim-hann player I am quite excited about trying these new Windrider and Vyper changes.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Don't really understand the whinging against those Craftworld changes. Everything Craftworlds were spamming got a point increase and everything Craftworlds wouldn't touch with a 10 feet pole got a slight point adjustment. It's like GW is actually trying to balance the game; something everyone has been asking them for.

Hell, Shining Spears went up and they are the biggest gripe everyone and their mother had about Craftworlds. Are people seriously not wanting to balance all units out or is this just the usual "I want Craftworlds player to suffer for a 1000 years because I am salty"?

So far I am impressed by these changes. They are adjusting things, getting people to try out new combinations. I also liked that they increased the cost of Fire Dragons but reduced the price of Fusion gun as to make it more cost effective for non-Fire Dragon units(who have special abilities and good armor compared to Storm Guardians f.ex). As a Saim-hann player I am quite excited about trying these new Windrider and Vyper changes.

You are impressed by the ELDAR changes don't go implying anything else.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Don't really understand the whinging against those Craftworld changes. Everything Craftworlds were spamming got a point increase and everything Craftworlds wouldn't touch with a 10 feet pole got a slight point adjustment. It's like GW is actually trying to balance the game; something everyone has been asking them for.

Hell, Shining Spears went up and they are the biggest gripe everyone and their mother had about Craftworlds. Are people seriously not wanting to balance all units out or is this just the usual "I want Craftworlds player to suffer for a 1000 years because I am salty"?

So far I am impressed by these changes. They are adjusting things, getting people to try out new combinations. I also liked that they increased the cost of Fire Dragons but reduced the price of Fusion gun as to make it more cost effective for non-Fire Dragon units(who have special abilities and good armor compared to Storm Guardians f.ex). As a Saim-hann player I am quite excited about trying these new Windrider and Vyper changes.

I can understand it. Let me explain it with this example:
Lets say your list had 9 Spears, 3 Fire Prims Farseer Skyrunner, a Warlock or 2 and some Hemlocks

Those are pretty standard "it" units for Eldar right now. The Spears got a superficial 6ppm increase, but Twin-cats also went down 3ppm
So those 9 Spears would only be 18pts more
But look what else in that list has Twin-cats: The Farseer and the Fire Prims, which by virtue of the Twin-cat decrease, each went down 3ppm
So in total, that list only went up 6pts.

SIX...POINTS. And if the list only had 7 Spears, there would be no change in total points...at all

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the changes. A lot. Especially since I want to play WRs and I now can without feeling like I am gimping myself
But considering Eldar lists will generally not have to change, and many Marine armies still have overcosted Troops, AND Dark Eldar got NO changes/nerfs, I can easily see the hate/frustration.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Don't really understand the whinging against those Craftworld changes. Everything Craftworlds were spamming got a point increase and everything Craftworlds wouldn't touch with a 10 feet pole got a slight point adjustment. It's like GW is actually trying to balance the game; something everyone has been asking them for.

Hell, Shining Spears went up and they are the biggest gripe everyone and their mother had about Craftworlds. Are people seriously not wanting to balance all units out or is this just the usual "I want Craftworlds player to suffer for a 1000 years because I am salty"?

So far I am impressed by these changes. They are adjusting things, getting people to try out new combinations. I also liked that they increased the cost of Fire Dragons but reduced the price of Fusion gun as to make it more cost effective for non-Fire Dragon units(who have special abilities and good armor compared to Storm Guardians f.ex). As a Saim-hann player I am quite excited about trying these new Windrider and Vyper changes.

I can understand it. Let me explain it with this example:
Lets say your list had 9 Spears, 3 Fire Prims Farseer Skyrunner, a Warlock or 2 and some Hemlocks

Those are pretty standard "it" units for Eldar right now. The Spears got a superficial 6ppm increase, but Twin-cats also went down 3ppm
So those 9 Spears would only be 18pts more
But look what else in that list has Twin-cats: The Farseer and the Fire Prims, which by virtue of the Twin-cat decrease, each went down 3ppm
So in total, that list only went up 6pts.

SIX...POINTS. And if the list only had 7 Spears, there would be no change in total points...at all

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the changes. A lot. Especially since I want to play WRs and I now can without feeling like I am gimping myself
But considering Eldar lists will generally not have to change, and many Marine armies still have overcosted Troops, AND Dark Eldar got NO changes/nerfs, I can easily see the hate/frustration.

-

Yea, but other armies got massive point reductions. My Guard army I'm building, for example... I have enough points now from the reductions to throw in a Manticore without changing anything about my list. Other armies are seeing drastic point reductions as well. If CWE costs stay about the same, then it is in effect a nerf if everyone else got cheaper.

New theory of what happened to Tacs in regards to CA:
The new Intercessor datasheet includes all the options Tacs have as-is. Thus, Tacs are 'fixed'.

That's not a rumor. Just throwing that out there.

Bharring wrote:
New theory of what happened to Tacs in regards to CA:
The new Intercessor datasheet includes all the options Tacs have as-is. Thus, Tacs are 'fixed'.

That's not a rumor. Just throwing that out there.

They should absolutely do that, that way you can just use your old tac models as "counts-as" primaris, and as long as you don't mix primaris units and tac marines in the same army there's no confusion.

Bharring wrote:
New theory of what happened to Tacs in regards to CA:
The new Intercessor datasheet includes all the options Tacs have as-is. Thus, Tacs are 'fixed'.

That's not a rumor. Just throwing that out there.

But that:
A) Does nothing to help Chaos Marines
B) Does not jive with the options in the Intercessor box and we all know how GW reacts to this

But I get the joke. Hopefully, however, part of your "theory" is true in that Tacticals and CSMs do indeed get updated datasheets with something extra to merit not getting their MUCH needed points decrease. Maybe they're getting 2 Wounds? Maybe they're getting some special ability that improves their damage output?

But holding my breathe might be fatal, so I wont' be doing that

-

Bharring wrote:
New theory of what happened to Tacs in regards to CA:
The new Intercessor datasheet includes all the options Tacs have as-is. Thus, Tacs are 'fixed'.

That's not a rumor. Just throwing that out there.

Too soon for that.

Yea, but other armies got massive point reductions. My Guard army I'm building, for example... I have enough points now from the reductions to throw in a Manticore without changing anything about my list. Other armies are seeing drastic point reductions as well. If CWE costs stay about the same, then it is in effect a nerf if everyone else got cheaper.

Which is what I feel GW is going for. They appear to be pushing a lot of the armies up instead of taking things down. Time will tell how effective that will be.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the changes. A lot. Especially since I want to play WRs and I now can without feeling like I am gimping myself
But considering Eldar lists will generally not have to change, and many Marine armies still have overcosted Troops, AND Dark Eldar got NO changes/nerfs, I can easily see the hate/frustration.

You make fair points Galef. I do however wonder if those decrying Craftworlds/Drukhari are taking into account the overall boost other armies are getting. These point changes are not happening in a vacuum where every other army is not getting anything.

I personally am looking forward to the next few months to see how things change. I am also looking forward to see if they've changed traits like the Alaitoc one. If they were to change that(no more -1 to hit) I would be a happy camper.

A) "Chaos Marine players love their Thousand Sons and Death Guard. So they're fine. We'll just bump Cultists to show 'em we're listening."
B) Well, there's a $40 upgrade kit for Intercessors that come with a bunch of Specials, CC weapons, and a Heavy weapon or two. Plus, you get 10 cheerleader mini-Primaris with every upgrade kit you buy.

Meanwhile, Orks...

As a craftworlds player who often runs things like falcons and Wraithlords and other non top tier units I can tell you from experience that whilst lists with spears and reaper spam may be top tier if you don't take our best units it's pretty tough to win games against good lists. A regular opponent plays a pretty serious drukhari list and I get a serious hiding every time.
I can understand people see competitive craftworlds armies running a few select units and thinks that we're op, but a non competitive list is actually not that great, not rubbish but not op by any stretch.
Watching battle reports from people like Liam from moarhammer and striking scorpion 82 should illustrate my point. They take non competitive armies and really struggle quite often, even against non optimised marine lists. But then Liam takes windriders, warlock conclaves, wraithknights and night spinners, so seeing him lose regularly is no surprise!

fe40k wrote:
Meanwhile, Orks...

were printed long after CA went to the printers. Orks will probably get changed in the mid year errata.

Anyone else notice "The Eight" as a 22 model unit for 1120?

 Blndmage wrote:
Anyone else notice "The Eight" as a 22 model unit for 1120?

Drones probably. 14 drones, all but two for farsight.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Meanwhile, Orks...

were printed long after CA went to the printers. Orks will probably get changed in the mid year errata.

Yeah, it's mainly the issue of being released so close to CA. Ideally, we get matched up in points to some of the other factions, but I don't think the sky is falling for Orks for the most part. P.K. are no longer the workhorse for our army (thankfully) and I think the changes to our codex plus our stratagems and traits will be enough to keep us up against most of the competition. Certainly better than us still being with the index right now.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Anyone else notice "The Eight" as a 22 model unit for 1120?

Drones probably. 14 drones, all but two for farsight.

I'm wondering how usable it will be, at 1120, you'd need to be playing, what, 1250 atvteh smallest? Even in a 2k list, it's more than half the cost in one unit, so you can't even put it in reserves to bomb with.

 Grimskul wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Meanwhile, Orks...

were printed long after CA went to the printers. Orks will probably get changed in the mid year errata.

Yeah, it's mainly the issue of being released so close to CA. Ideally, we get matched up in points to some of the other factions, but I don't think the sky is falling for Orks for the most part. P.K. are no longer the workhorse for our army (thankfully) and I think the changes to our codex plus our stratagems and traits will be enough to keep us up against most of the competition. Certainly better than us still being with the index right now.

Yeah....nothing like most of the army still being over priced and the few competitive units relying exclusively on CP to function..... Or am I still supposed believe that 23pt Warbikers are somehow competitive?

Dark eldar didn’t go up because they’re the new baseline. Eldar only got Serpent spam adjusted. Yes, Mechdar with Vect is strong and it didn’t get nerfed, but Knights didn’t get either. They got cheaper too (stubbers) and better against flyers because the 20p Icarus and the fact Ad Mech got crazy buffs. Onager at 110p is value and the tax hqs are now cheap.

Many Tau, Admech and Necron lists now got more than 200p of additional stuff into their lists. Marines didn’t get buffed enough, and Chaos got screwed, but other than that my initial impression is that this CA is a great adjustment to the game.

Wow, I didn't notice this. Space Marine Bikers are now 21pts....same as my Ork warbikers.

SemperMortis wrote:
Wow, I didn't notice this. Space Marine Bikers are now 21pts....same as my Ork warbikers.

Ork Bikers are better though. So that's fine.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is the imperial guard edition.

If you save 100-200 points in your space marines army, that just means you can supplement more imperial guard. That's the way to do it.

And, since the imperial guard stuff got cheaper, you're better off.

You need to be thinking of Imperium with a "Guard First" mentality when building a competitive list. GK are definitely no exception. The best GK lists are about 900 points of guard for a reason. And they are still inferior to an all guard list.

But something, something stormbolters! Amirite Marm?

Knights didn't get a point increase because they don't need one, except maybe the Gallant.

Castellan is a perfectly fine model, actually i can see it being a bit overcosted for what it does. The huge problem is Cawl's wrath. A relic that doubles the damage of a 600+ points model is overly dumb. It would have been a nice relic even if it only gave an additional point of AP over the standard weapon loadout, no need to also increase strenght and damage. Cawl's wrath is the strongest relic in the game, with points it would be costed around 300-350 points, no wonder that people think that castellan is hugely OP, that thing with Cawl's Wrath is a 1000 point model.

anyone have links to the datasheet changes?