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Eldars got points drop because they needed points drop.
Eldars are not a good faction, they are a faction that is being carried by shining spears and a busted sub-faction trait. If you fix those 2, the eldars are quite down in the competitivity chart.

Karol wrote:
Although it would be nice to see someone from the design team explain why they thought that eldar should be getting point drops on multiple units.

Most of those point changes are from units that never see the table. They could jack up the "overpowered" stuff or do what they did and increase the competition within the codex.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Does not have to be fake, but could very well be early version.

Just...alot of oddities, but bloodcrushers at codex price (as in, actually printed at same point cost) takes the cake.

GW can also just be you know... being bad at checking their material against each other, like always.

Spoletta wrote:
Eldars got points drop because they needed points drop.
Eldars are not a good faction, they are a faction that is being carried by shining spears and a busted sub-faction trait. If you fix those 2, the eldars are quite down in the competitivity chart.

This just isn't true.

A couple of my FW units went down, this makes me very happy. Blood Slaughterers -15, Kytan -104, Butcher cannons -5, contemptor base -16. Plus Bloodthirsters down 100, who doesn't like that?

Tyel wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Eldars got points drop because they needed points drop.
Eldars are not a good faction, they are a faction that is being carried by shining spears and a busted sub-faction trait. If you fix those 2, the eldars are quite down in the competitivity chart.

This just isn't true.

CWE is a good faction, but outside of the "optimal" build, they are not the amazing, overpowered group that the community at large thinks they are. I'm sure when it all shakes out, the mixture between CWE/Drukhari/Ynnari will get sillier due to these changes, which will result in more valid complaints, but this change does make standalone CWE better.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Karol wrote:
Although it would be nice to see someone from the design team explain why they thought that eldar should be getting point drops on multiple units.

Most of those point changes are from units that never see the table. They could jack up the "overpowered" stuff or do what they did and increase the competition within the codex.

Cool, but doesn't that mean that eldar will just get more option to play with now ?

I'm sure when it all shakes out, the mixture between CWE/Drukhari/Ynnari will get sillier due to these changes, which will result in more valid complaints, but this change does make standalone CWE better.

Ok, thanks for explaining.

It does Karol and that isn't a bad thing, it isn't like they're gonna be fielding 2 unit of each discounted unit now. It just means there will be wiggle room for people. I mean it's what we wanted, kinda hard to begrudge people who want to use their models.

Bharring wrote:
ASM at 15ppm with Jumppacks is a -1ppm change. Don't know if it's the Battle Brother or the Jumppack. But it being listed seperately seems to be a change, too.

It's a Jump Pack change. Prior prices meant that Assault Marines paid 3 points for their Pack, while Vanguard paid 2.

"Although it would be nice to see someone from the design team explain why they thought that eldar should be getting point drops on multiple units."
Because Storm Guardians, WraithKnights, and Warlock Conclaves made GK look *good*.

Not everything in the CWE book is OP. Some of it actually is garbage (not just "garbage by CWE standards). The points drops were on those garbage units. I'm not seeing the current top CWE lists going down in points.

 Quickjager wrote:
It does Karol and that isn't a bad thing, it isn't like they're gonna be fielding 2 unit of each discounted unit now. It just means there will be wiggle room for people. I mean it's what we wanted, kinda hard to begrudge people who want to use their models.

I would have no problem with them using the models, if they had bad rules. Probably thinking that GW is going to give good rules to GK and nerfs everyone else wasn't the right mind set the last few months. I hope that people smarter then me at GW found out a way to play GK in an efficient way, that doesn't require FW or other armies. I look at the changes at see the void. Even with free 200pts, which my army doesn't get, I would still be stomped by all armies at my store, only now they get to play around with new stuff. Also knowing my store next 2-3 months is going to be CA events, to encourage people to buy in to the fixed units. I fully expect no monster and no special character weeks, just like last years CA.

Can wait for the design studio review of their book. IMO it is going to tell us a lot about the future of w40k.

Because Storm Guardians, WraithKnights, and Warlock Conclaves made GK look *good*.

I had big units of guardians teleport in and wipe out my whole army turn 2, although that was months ago. I never seen WK or conclaves, and I don't think anyone else did. And an option that doesn't get used isn't making anyone look good just, because it exists. Because you know just because my 6y old brother can't write in english, I am not suddenly turned in to the second incarnation of Hemingway. .

I suppose the obvious should be pointed out: what we're seeing in CA is a continuation of 'GK are a flavor-add to lists, not a core army'.

Not saying that's good or bad. Just saying that's the most likely explanation of everything GW has done with respect to GK this edition.

Bharring wrote:
I suppose the obvious should be pointed out: what we're seeing in CA is a continuation of 'GK are a flavor-add to lists, not a core army'.

Not saying that's good or bad. Just saying that's the most likely explanation of everything GW has done with respect to GK this edition.

Ok, but where is this writen down or said. People keep saying it. But it is not in the codex, not in the old CA, not in faction review for last year FAQ, there is no this years GK FAQ review because GW didn't gave them one. Was it said in a twich stream or something like that?

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I suppose the obvious should be pointed out: what we're seeing in CA is a continuation of 'GK are a flavor-add to lists, not a core army'.

Not saying that's good or bad. Just saying that's the most likely explanation of everything GW has done with respect to GK this edition.

Ok, but where is this writen down or said. People keep saying it. But it is not in the codex, not in the old CA, not in faction review for last year FAQ, there is no this years GK FAQ review because GW didn't gave them one. Was it said in a twich stream or something like that?

It's in the brain of people who have played for a loooooong time. GK used to be only field-able as a single squad of ultra-powerful Terminators. It remains somewhat their lore, too. They're the force that exists to fight Daemons, so why they show up in an engagement against Tau (or whatever) is beyond me. They exist for a single purpose, the use of them otherwise is canonically a waste.

Maybe that's shifted in there lore, but I sorta doubt it.

"I had big units of guardians teleport in and wipe out my whole army turn 2, although that was months ago."
Did they have swords or guns? I'm betting guns. those were Guardian *Defenders*, a different unit - which did *not* get a points reduction (rightly - they're fine as-is).

*Storm* Guardians are basically the same unit, but trade away the gun for pistol+sword. On an S3 body. Basically, Guardsmen with pistol/sword. For 7ppm vs 4ppm. They're the ones that went to 6ppm - still half again the points.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Maybe that's shifted in there lore, but I sorta doubt it.

In the GK lore, at least in the book I have, it is writen that GK respond before any other forces thanks to having super oracles that know in advance where an attack may or may not happen, better and more accurate then the eldar ones. And this is why GK forces drop when a demon infestation starts to stop it and not come after 20 years of warp travel to a planet that was already eaten. But I get it, non GK players don't have to read GK lore in their books.

" And an option that doesn't get used isn't making anyone look good just, because it exists. Because you know just because my 6y old brother can't write in english, I am not suddenly turned in to the second incarnation of Hemingway. . "
This argument boils down to: "If an option is bad, just forget it exists. Balancing doesn't help if it's not used."

Why does that apply to Storm Guardians but not GK? Aren't GK jsut another "option that doesn't get used"?

Bharring wrote:
"I had big units of guardians teleport in and wipe out my whole army turn 2, although that was months ago."
Did they have swords or guns? I'm betting guns. those were Guardian *Defenders*, a different unit - which did *not* get a points reduction (rightly - they're fine as-is).

*Storm* Guardians are basically the same unit, but trade away the gun for pistol+sword. On an S3 body. Basically, Guardsmen with pistol/sword. For 7ppm vs 4ppm. They're the ones that went to 6ppm - still half again the points.

they had 2 melta guns and pistols. 3 squads droped in they had meltaguns, he also had warlocks and farseers, and some DE. After one turn of shoting my 4 squads of paladins went down to 2 squads of 1 dude each.


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Bharring wrote:
" And an option that doesn't get used isn't making anyone look good just, because it exists. Because you know just because my 6y old brother can't write in english, I am not suddenly turned in to the second incarnation of Hemingway. . "
This argument boils down to: "If an option is bad, just forget it exists. Balancing doesn't help if it's not used."

Why does that apply to Storm Guardians but not GK? Aren't GK jsut another "option that doesn't get used"?

Because eldar have a ton of options that do get used. you could take a squad of guardians, park it anywhere or even forget to deploy it, and you would still be beating any non tournament list, and sure as heck all GK lists.

Making an unused unit better for an army that is already great is giving it options. Making crow cheaper, aka making a bad unit cost less in a bad list is not adding anything, it is just rubbing it in, or what ever GW though when they kept strikes at the same point cost and termintors at 39pts.

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"I had big units of guardians teleport in and wipe out my whole army turn 2, although that was months ago."
Did they have swords or guns? I'm betting guns. those were Guardian *Defenders*, a different unit - which did *not* get a points reduction (rightly - they're fine as-is).

*Storm* Guardians are basically the same unit, but trade away the gun for pistol+sword. On an S3 body. Basically, Guardsmen with pistol/sword. For 7ppm vs 4ppm. They're the ones that went to 6ppm - still half again the points.

they had 2 melta guns and pistols. 3 squads droped in they had meltaguns, he also had warlocks and farseers, and some DE. After one turn of shoting my 4 squads of paladins went down to 2 squads of 1 dude each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
" And an option that doesn't get used isn't making anyone look good just, because it exists. Because you know just because my 6y old brother can't write in english, I am not suddenly turned in to the second incarnation of Hemingway. . "
This argument boils down to: "If an option is bad, just forget it exists. Balancing doesn't help if it's not used."

Why does that apply to Storm Guardians but not GK? Aren't GK jsut another "option that doesn't get used"?

Because eldar have a ton of options that do get used. you could take a squad of guardians, park it anywhere or even forget to deploy it, and you would still be beating any non tournament list, and sure as heck all GK lists.

Making an unused unit better for an army that is already great is giving it options. Making crow cheaper, aka making a bad unit cost less in a bad list is not adding anything, it is just rubbing it in, or what ever GW though when they kept strikes at the same point cost and termintors at 39pts.

You can make squads of 2 paladins?
Edit : OK min size is 3.
Still means 30 wounds were taken out mainly with 24 shuriken pistols

Karol wrote:

Making an unused unit better for an army that is already great is giving it options. Making crow cheaper, aka making a bad unit cost less in a bad list is not adding anything, it is just rubbing it in, or what ever GW though when they kept strikes at the same point cost and termintors at 39pts.

This is just utter nonsense.

Oh, those were Storm Guardians, then. But it takes quite a lot to go wrong for Storm Guardians to do real damage.

It's kinda hard to picture 6 Melta Guns and 18 Shuriken Pistols bringing 4 Pally Squads down to 2 Models. Assuming each started with 4 members, that's 14 kills. Let's just pretend each Melta Gun kills a Pally (only about 1/3 chance of an unsaved wound from each MG, so all 6 doing so is... crazy unlikely). That leaves you with 8 kills from 18 Shuriken Pistol shots. So as long as he has a 178% success rate at wounding with Pistols, it could happen!

In other words, no. 3 Storm Guardian squads aren't shooting 4 Pally squads down to 2 models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just figured out how it happened:
"3 squads droped in they had meltaguns"
Because they weren't playing by the rules.

CWE can only Webway 2 units, not 3.

dhallnet wrote:
[

You can make squads of 2 paladins?
Edit : OK min size is 3.
Still means 30 wounds were taken out mainly with 24 shuriken pistols

And psychic powers and desintegrators. Still 1000pts of his army killed 2000pts of my in 2 turns.

This is just utter nonsense.

Ok, maybe am stupid. Could you explain to me where am I wrong? to me if everyone gets 1$, but the entery fee is 5$, and most other people had 3-4$, but you have 1$ your still stuck in the no ticket zone.

How is the points drop list for GK deal with something like an Inari soup or a Castellan list? By adding a razorback or taking 6 strikes more? I already played games when people let me recycle units, most good lists can kill 2500pts of GK and still win on objectives.

"And psychic powers and desintegrators. Still 1000pts of his army killed 2000pts of my in 2 turns. "
That's like saying GK are OK because a squad of Interceptors and a Castellian could destroy a Wraithknight.

Those Storm Guardians didn't do nearly as much damage as you think they did.

Karol wrote:


How is the points drop list for GK deal with something like an Inari soup or a Castellan list?

Ynnari is still a little borked.

Castellans you just kill everything around it and go for objectives. Like, don't even shoot it at all.

"How is the points drop list for GK deal with something like an Inari soup or a Castellan list? By adding a razorback or taking 6 strikes more? I already played games when people let me recycle units, most good lists can kill 2500pts of GK and still win on objectives."
What's nonsense is claiming that fixing non-GK units that are currently terribad is unfair, because GK are bad.

Bharring wrote:

What's nonsense is claiming that fixing non-GK units that are currently terribad is unfair, because GK are bad.

Yep, this.

Bharring wrote:
" And an option that doesn't get used isn't making anyone look good just, because it exists. Because you know just because my 6y old brother can't write in english, I am not suddenly turned in to the second incarnation of Hemingway. . "
This argument boils down to: "If an option is bad, just forget it exists. Balancing doesn't help if it's not used."

Why does that apply to Storm Guardians but not GK? Aren't GK jsut another "option that doesn't get used"?

Honestly the Storm Guardian entry just needs to be deleted. It's the silliest idea in the history of the game, and that says a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"How is the points drop list for GK deal with something like an Inari soup or a Castellan list? By adding a razorback or taking 6 strikes more? I already played games when people let me recycle units, most good lists can kill 2500pts of GK and still win on objectives."
What's nonsense is claiming that fixing non-GK units that are currently terribad is unfair, because GK are bad.

EH it's unfair if Grey Knights don't get correct fixes though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the Storm Guardian entry just needs to be deleted. It's the silliest idea in the history of the game, and that says a lot.

I have fond memories from 5th edition taking Storm Guardians with 2 flamers and accompanying them with a Warlock with Destructor. I used to put them into a Wave Serpent. Tank shock the flank of an unsuspecting foe, which forced them to bunch up. Then I would hop out of the Serpent, and put 3 templates on their models. I actually preferred Storm Guardians to regular guardians because back then Eldar civilians only hit on a 3, so auto hitting fire templates were a big draw to me. The Warlock's Witchlbade was also crazy back then, as vs vehicles it was like he was swinging a las cannon...

Times have changed now though, and Storm Guardians are basically totally worthless these days.

At 6ppm though? I won't be surprised if they see *some* use now. Not much, but 6ppm is cheap for an Elf body.

The MeltaGun also went down, but if you're spending points on them to take Melta Guns, you're probably better off just taking something else.

Bharring wrote:
"How is the points drop list for GK deal with something like an Inari soup or a Castellan list? By adding a razorback or taking 6 strikes more? I already played games when people let me recycle units, most good lists can kill 2500pts of GK and still win on objectives."
What's nonsense is claiming that fixing non-GK units that are currently terribad is unfair, because GK are bad.

Am not saying it is unfair. I said that saying that just because other armies got updates too and this time GK were not skiped in updates, like it happened with the past FAQs, suddenly makes GK good. If everyone gets a points drop, then nothing changes, other then people being made to buy more models. If eldar get more options to use more models, then just because Crow costs 80pts, GK do not become ok. It has nothing to do with fairness, but everything with how the change looks. How many units of lets say wind raiders can an eldar player take ? 2-3 right? This will change his list, as far as game play goes. Or at least I think so. How is the fact that a GM NDK cost less going to change the GK lists? The point drop is not enough to run a second one, and if you took draigo like me, the other HQ slot is full already. Neither the drop to the GM NDK, nor the Draigo gives enough points to run 2 battalions of GK. So more or less you get enough points to have a razorback "for free". Nothing in the game play changes, no new ways of playings come from it. And as stupid as I am, I think people will agree with me, that the GK game play is not something that could be described as working. Even if you added a "free razorback" to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"And psychic powers and desintegrators. Still 1000pts of his army killed 2000pts of my in 2 turns. "
That's like saying GK are OK because a squad of Interceptors and a Castellian could destroy a Wraithknight.

Those Storm Guardians didn't do nearly as much damage as you think they did.

They removed 11 wounds from my models. desintegrators killed 4 paladians, the warlock killed 1 and the farseer killed 2. And am not disagreing with you that storm guardians aren't the best of the best eldar have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:


How is the points drop list for GK deal with something like an Inari soup or a Castellan list?

Ynnari is still a little borked.

Castellans you just kill everything around it and go for objectives. Like, don't even shoot it at all.

Ok, so which army or build do GK kill after the change. I know they won't be able to deal with eldar or tyranids, If orks don't change much they can't deal with orcs either. This leaves other imperial armies, but vs other imperials GK always feel like playing marines -2. Were demons nerfed, so GK are good against them now ?