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Hi all!

I'm going to be having my first game of 8th edition (coming back from 7th) today, hopefully, and I'm looking for any pitfalls I can avoid.

I'm mainly concerned with getting it right, not with the outcome of the game. I am, however, taking Orks (I know there's a new codex soon but that won't help me today!) and have been advised that they play at 50-100 power level at the GW.

I've concluded that power level business is inherently unfair, as I have 2 lists at 100 power level, but one is 1750 points and the other is over 2k, and has an extra CP to boot.

One list has 3 KFF Meks, a kill bursta, big trakk with all skorcha stuff, meka dread and 2 battlewagons full of boys (battalion, superheavy and heavy support platoon thingy). The other has 2 weirdboys, 80 footslogging boys, and some bikes and stormboys to do repositioning, 5 kustom mega kannons and tankbustas. (just a battalion).

I also have 2 50PL lists, one is 2 units of 30 boys, 1 unit of 30 grots, lootas behind in a trukk and a mega-warboss and KFF mek slogging with them. the other is 3 deffkoptas, 6 bikers, 10 stormboys, biker SAG mek, and lootas I think.

General gist in the 100PL lists is that the kill tank is a red herring to let the meka dread get close. with the turbo charga, it can move 16" and then charge, and kick out some nice damage. Hopefully between the meka dread and the kill bursta, the boys can make it to the enemy to wreak some havoc relatively unscathed. The big trakk will mainly be to combat fliers (with a supa skorcha... ...yeah...) and medium infantry.

The other 100PL list plans on walking up and stomping. In reality, it'll probably be shot to death. but I'll have a good go at it!

One pitfall I've already clocked is that you can't move a vehicle and then get out - so charging out of a battlewagon is going to be a bit more tricky. I've also had to remind myself that what I think of as blast weapons can fire if they move, even if they're heavy weapons (looking at you SAG!).

Has anyone got any other points I should bear in mind for my first game, so I don't go committing to an attack which I can't actually do, and get my butt whooped for it?

I'll try and do a battle report, but I make no promises!

Both are inherently unfair so either way it's unfair. In practice I haven't found either to be more broken than the other.

But as for your list...Don't want to discourage too much but with index rule both sucks. Big time. If your opponents have any semi decent army you could be wiped out in 2 turns, 3 at most. Ork index is one of the worst armies out there(grey knights have it worse at least...There's one faction even orks feel sorry for) and pretty much only thing that holds them away from total defeat is spamming toooooons of cheap infantry and hope enemy doesn't wipe you off. Which they quite likely can do anyway but occasionally you'll have handful of models left and have won on objectives(btw hope you have maelstrom card scenarios as those are where orks need to win. End of game scoring sucks as you won't have much of an army left so holding objectives at the end is super unlikely. Generally orks score objectives well 1-3 turns and then start to drop. Thus best scenario for orks is one where maelstrom cards start in numbers at first and decrease as turns go by)

Both list suffer from having vehicles which are expensive, soft and not that killy. 2 battlewagons will be taken out rather fast when everybody aims to kill knights(when people are planning on killing knight on T1 and knight is tougher than 2 battlewagons combined...) and 40 boyz inside there can be taken out in 1 turn to state of no concern. Big trak there at least is good. Those you might want more of. One of the few ork vehicles that don't suck completely.

Other list has more idea but 80 boyz is 2 turns worth of shooting for enemy. Bikes are horribly overpriced but stormboyz are good and KMK's are the most killy stuff orks actually have so that's good. Make shots count though as being T5 4+ W5 vehicles enemy will make them priority target for all the lascannons etc(that's issue with the ork vehicles. If you take vehicles you give good targets for enemy AT guns).

Still if one of the two is going to do anything it's the 2nd list.

Either way both are on fast track for defeat. Hopefully the new codex helps though so far rumblings aren't too promising but maybe there's hidden gem and rule leakers just start with all the crappy news.

tneva82 wrote:
If your opponents have any semi decent army you could be wiped out in 2 turns, 3 at most.

I'll count lasting until turn 4 as a win then

I'm mainly concerned with learning the rules, I hope that I can get enough turns in to "get it" this time, and next time I can come back swinging!

 some bloke wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If your opponents have any semi decent army you could be wiped out in 2 turns, 3 at most.

I'll count lasting until turn 4 as a win then

I'm mainly concerned with learning the rules, I hope that I can get enough turns in to "get it" this time, and next time I can come back swinging!

I always just try to postpone inevitable wipeout and see if I could try to kill SOMETHING or at least get my warlord in suitable epic fight. He's already got blood angel captain of doom(albeit less ork warlord killing optimized as it took "no overwatch" relic jump pack over D4 thunderhammer. Jump pack is my favourite relic but against orks that's not really all that usefull and hammer would have nearly quaranteed death. Needing to roll 3 6's out of 8 dice would be tough to survive!) under his belt.

Good news is codex is upcoming and while it doesn't seem like it will be boost that's sufficient it's pretty hard to make it WORSE off though GW seems to be trying hard. You'll probably need to invest on some walkers, paint them evil sunz and teleport them around. That seems to be what will be carrying orks in future. Deep striking walkers that charge straight up fairly reliably.

tneva82 wrote:
You'll probably need to invest on some walkers, paint them evil sunz and teleport them around. That seems to be what will be carrying orks in future. Deep striking walkers that charge straight up fairly reliably.

I've got quite a few walkers, I used to run a IA8 dreadmob, I think I have 2 meka dreads (technical one was a mega dread, but they don't exist any more!), 10 deff dreads and ~15 killa kans. I did consider taking them but I concluded that I'd rather have the variety in my list so I can see what is good and what isn't.

I'm kinda hoping that, if I tell the opponent I'm taking orks, they'll bring out the anti infantry guns. with this many vehicles trundling around, it should give me a chance! hopefully they won't tool up with anti-knight shenanigans as much.

whatever happens, I aim to enjoy the game!

While tneva's comments are accurate from the perspective of competitive tactics, I wouldn't be too disheartened if you're playing in your local GW and are primarily interested in learning the rules. The games shouldn't be super-competitive at this point anyways.

I would recommend you ask your opponent to take it slightly slower and explain their weapons, abilities etc as they go. 8th is very focused on overlapping abilities and other combos, and it's easy to get caught out if you're in the 7th edition mindset.

Remember that characters don't join units any more, but instead have auras that affect nearby units. They can only be shot if they're nearer the opponent than other units, but they can also join in fights if nearby units are fighting via Heroic Intervention. What this means in practice is that you want the characters to be around an inch or two behind the front line, even if they are super-killy; it's unlikely to affect their ability to fight while ensuring they don't get shot to death.

As you've mentioned, don't worry too much about the exact army build; this will change anyway when the codex drops. I'd actually go one further and recommend a bit-of-everything approach, especially if you can get your opponent to agree; it'll give you a wider range of scenarios, which should in theory help you get to grips with the rules.

Also, if you're going to be playing mainly in your local GW, check out other games to see the field. You've said it's PL which should hopefully mean it's relatively soft, but it's worth seeing if people tool everything out as far as they can or go for a more balanced playstyle. Making sure everyone's on the same page about what you're looking for is just as important as knowing the rules!

Right now this:
"2 weirdboys, 80 footslogging boys, and some bikes and stormboys to do repositioning, 5 kustom mega kannons and tankbustas."

Is the more competitive list, and contrary to Tneva's endless misery, you can do well with it.

But we may have a fully leaked codex in the next 24 hours, which may change things around.

How well he can do with that list though. Suboptimal gunline shoots 60 boyz a turn. Even very casual will thus kill 40 easy peacy. Orks will take 3 turns to get to combat if opponent doesn#t come forward...

Sucks but maths don't lie. Those boyz won't survive long even vs toned down lists. 80 boyz was good number in earlier editions but in 8th firepower has gone up the roof. Knights are regularly one shotted and infantry dies in dozens. Gw has deliberately made so that armies die fast(they need to since turns take longer than ever to make sure not many turns before armies are out)

Divide 80 by 40. That's how long those boyz survive. That's firepower casual 1500pts list puts out. 100pl is more than 1500 so...

tneva82 wrote:
How well he can do with that list though. Suboptimal gunline shoots 60 boyz a turn. Even very casual will thus kill 40 easy peacy. Orks will take 3 turns to get to combat if opponent doesn#t come forward...

Sucks but maths don't lie. Those boyz won't survive long even vs toned down lists. 80 boyz was good number in earlier editions but in 8th firepower has gone up the roof. Knights are regularly one shotted and infantry dies in dozens. Gw has deliberately made so that armies die fast(they need to since turns take longer than ever to make sure not many turns before armies are out)

Divide 80 by 40. That's how long those boyz survive. That's firepower casual 1500pts list puts out. 100pl is more than 1500 so...

Yeah, you say this in every thread. Maths doesn't lie, Orks should lose every game.
Except empirically we know they don't. They do okay in tournaments - better than GK, Necrons, non-RG marines. In fact as a non-soup list they don't seem to do badly at all.
So the conclusion is that your maths is wrong.

I'm not sure that it's particularly relevant to the topic at hand either. I feel negatively about our Index and a lot of my 8th edition games (still got a lot of love for the army though) as well but we can't just spread that negativity around non-stop in unrelated topics.

On the current topic: firstly I would say that it's very important to familiarise yourself with the rule book, it's different in some subtle ways to previous editions and is more brief than ever. For example there's more player agency in the fight phase than before. In that phase, of you choose to move, you don't just need to get as close as possible as fast as possible to enemy models - as long as you end up closer than you were before your pile in/consolidate move then you have abided by the rules. This means you can manoeuvre quite a bit during these parts of the game.

Make sure you understand the terrain rules because they can be unintuitive but are important to play correctly. For example only infantry canove freely through walls of a ruin, so your walkers can't just cut through them they will need to go around. Similarly not every unit type can move onto the higher floors of a ruin or assault units in them.

If you take the list with more Boyz on foot then be mindful about keeping your Warboss close by at all times to as many mobs as possible. The morale phase can be very punishing for Orks but with careful positioning a Warboss will make all those worries go away.

Good luck with your game, I hope it's useful for you and you have fun.

Thanks for the replies guys!

I went for my non-weirdboy list in the end, it seemed like it had the most synergy to me.

My list was (now that I have it handy!)

Batallion:
KFF Mek x 2
18 slugga boys, PK nob, rokkit launcha
19 shoota boys, PK nob, rokkit launcha
10 grots
Battlewagon, zzapp gun, killkannon, 2 big shootas, 2 rokkit launchas
5 tankbustas, 2 squigs

Spearhead:
KFF Mega Mek
Meka Dread, overcharger thingy
Battlewagon, killkannon, 4 big shootas
Big Trakk, Supa Skorcha

Superheavy Detachment:
Kill Tank, Bursta Kannon, 2 racks of rokkits.


My opponent was space marines, with a black templars force. he had (roughly):
terminator champion guy who gives rerolls to everyone in 6"
terminator chaplain
regular captain with thunderhammer and the relic which gives him 2+ save and 3++ for one turn
10 marines, flamer & combi-flamers
5 primaris
5 primaris
5 devastators w/ 2 las, 2 ML
5 devastators w/ 2 las, 2 ML
venerable dread w/ h. flamer & twin las
venerable dread w/ h. flamer & twin las
bigger dreadnaught with 12 shot gun.
10 thunderhammer stormshield termies.

Having had him say whilst I brought my army out "Well, that answers the question of whether or not I need anti tank", I feel he did tailor somewhat, but hey ho.

He got turn 1, and didn't kill anything. one battlewagon dropped to 4 wounds and killed 3 grots (making 3 more run away!). luckily BW had just enough wounds left to limp forward faster than a meganob with a dodgy leg.
My turn 1 I rolled forward anddid some good orky shooting, took out all but one of the primaris in one squad and took out 3 devastators. Krusha tank took all but one wound off the big dreadnaught. terrain had me bottlenecked, wasn't the most favourable of boards.

His turn 2 took out both of the battlewagons. the 10 termies dropped with the chaplain on one flank. all the boys that piled out of the wagons were as far as possible from them to deny a charge. several boys die to primaris shooting. big dreadnaught with 1 wound left charges in, kills a boy and is powerklawed to death.
My turn 2, the meka dread breaks cover and charges some primaris guys (wrong target for him, my mistake). tankbustas in big trakk chip some wounds off the venerable, his damn "6+ ignores the wound" saving him too much! supa skorcha gets a mediocre roll and kills 2 marines. boys & meka dread kill all but one of the primaris guys.

his turn 3 sees the termies march forward and target the boys. shoota boys are dropped to 3 models by shooting. the primaris ambles away from my baffled 7th edition meka dread, who's shouting "we ain't done yet!". meka dread takes 2 lascannons & 2 missiles to the face and dies. slugga boys get charged by the termies but the chaplain fails, so they conga line to pass his "try harder" messages on via chinese whispers to the guys at the front. most of the boys die, powerklaw nob makes a good account of himself and kills a termie. the remainder of them flee (should have done a heroic bravery 2CP thing here). 2 boys run from the shoota squad, leaving just the nob.

My turn 3 sees the krusha tank blow up some terminators and chip some wounds of a dreadnaught. tankbustas bring the dread on the flank down to 4 wounds (damn you 6+ save thingy!!!) and supa skorcha deals some damage to the marines. The lone PK nob charges the lone primaris guy with 1 wound and kills him, feeling very good about himself. the KFF meks run to try and get back into the safety of some vehicles before they are smushed by terminators.

His turn 4 (I made it! Take that internet people!) saw most of my army finished off. Big Trakk is destroyed, tankbustas hide to avoid being charged by the dread. KFF mek is shot down, the triumphant lone PK nob is set on fire, the kill tank loses 4 wounds (prompting the question "It has how many wounds?") and the other mek is sat on by a dreadnaught.

My turn 4 - now with 4 tankbustas, 4 grots, a kill tank and a megamek inside it - goes fairly quickly but effectively. tankbustas blow up the dreadnaught, who really blows up and kills 4 marines and 3 tankbustas - leaving just the nob. the grots move up to try and do something, and fail. the kill tank does much damage to terminators, but they mostly save it, only losing 1 model (I got 10 shots! 10!). Grots charge the marines, 3 die to overwatch (flamers) and the 1 rolls a 12! moves in, and now the tankbusta nob moves in as well to do some killing. grot fails, nob kills 1, then the thunderhammer matey who heroicly intervened splats him. grot knocks himself out on his knee as he does so, 'cos he was running too fast!

His turn 5, he does some damage to the kill tank, but by now I've hidden from his lascannons. he has all 3 objectives, and I can't win. so I decide to try to at least contest one!

My turn 5, megamek gets out and moves up to charge the 2 marines left (both flamers) and makes it. gives 1 attack to each of the models, and lands all of them. damn thunderhammer guy activates his 3++ and shrugs it off, then mushes the mek. Krusha tank charges a dread (I'd forgotten you can charge with vehicles!) and I remember the D3 mortal wounds thing it has, which would have been very effective if I'd been using it! almost kill the dread, the dread doesn't kill me, and the game ends, orks losing quite thoroughly.

Things I've learnt:
1: vehicles charge! they have to to get close. use it!
2: big trakk is a long ranged tank, don't use it's speed to get close, use it to stay away!
3: Krusha tank is nice, I'll be trying the giga shoota next time.
4: Meka Dreads aren't good at killing infantry, they're for killing tanks. D6 damage on 6 S12 attacks is not for smushing marines.
5: using bravery to keep 3 models holding up some termies would have been a good tactic.

If I'd remembered most of this, the game may have gone differently. As it is, it was good fun, and I'm looking forward to coming back swinging!