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Talking primarily about some of the forgeworld titans the revenant / warhound / taunat / heirophant / etc. but also units like the stomps which just got priced out of the game but without statlines that remotely reflect the cost.

A lot of these at least the FW ones took a huge hit in the initial chapter approved will they be forever in the dumpster or do we think GW may revisit them this time around?

I think eventually they'll get improved, but my hopes aren't high for it happening in the upcoming Chapter Approved.

I figure they'll either get fixed in Chapter Approved when things have stabilized a bit and GW has more time (not this year), or they'll slowly get fixed as FW puts out actual books.

I trhink if you're a fan of titans (and your name implies you are) you'd be best served checking out adeptus titanicus.

Stompa has chance though could take several iterations of codex. FW knights? Fat chance in hell. They are more likely looking at more nerfs.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think eventually they'll get improved, but my hopes aren't high for it happening in the upcoming Chapter Approved.

I figure they'll either get fixed in Chapter Approved when things have stabilized a bit and GW has more time (not this year), or they'll slowly get fixed as FW puts out actual books.

I dont have high hopes for this chapter approved either tbh GW hasn't been treating FW stuff well this edition and without a single 8th FW imperial armour I feel they will likely be ignored I'm honestly not sure the chapter approved will even feature forgeworld units this time around.

BrianDavion wrote:
I trhink if you're a fan of titans (and your name implies you are) you'd be best served checking out adeptus titanicus.

My name is definitely a bit of a give away there and while I appreciate adeptus titanicus it's just not big enough in my area and until they are ready for xenos titans and more variety I'm a bit scared to purchase it tbh. Its just seems like a game that wont necessarily last the test of time and will fade into the background. I could be wrong but that's always kind of been a trend of gws of shoot games for as long as I can recall they exist and eventually fade away. AT is decently expensive over say necormunda and blood bowl so I'm not really sure I'd want to buy into it with a small community and no real garunteed future support.

Well, GW doesn't really seem to look at Forgeworld models, as long as they don't break the game. And Forgeworld doesn't seem to care very much.

All things considered, I have a hard time caring about the relative power level of a series of models whose points cost are higher than the size of an average game, though. Like, it doesn't really matter how well the Warlord titan is balanced, since it exists pretty far beyond the realm of reasonable play. Like, it exists for gaks and giggles and open play, so it doesn't really need a points cost, just take what is felt to be appropriate to oppose it.

I'd like to see the smaller FW super heavies, like the Macharius, Kill Tanks, etc. become usable, but I doubt it'll happen. The Macharius is really cool.


That said, the Tesseract Vault seems pretty strong enough, and the Stompa is getting buffed this codex and might be good, and they might revisit the Stormsurge some time.

Yes.

It's just a question of when.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, GW doesn't really seem to look at Forgeworld models, as long as they don't break the game. And Forgeworld doesn't seem to care very much.

All things considered, I have a hard time caring about the relative power level of a series of models whose points cost are higher than the size of an average game, though. Like, it doesn't really matter how well the Warlord titan is balanced, since it exists pretty far beyond the realm of reasonable play. Like, it exists for gaks and giggles and open play, so it doesn't really need a points cost, just take what is felt to be appropriate to oppose it.

I'd like to see the smaller FW super heavies, like the Macharius, Kill Tanks, etc. become usable, but I doubt it'll happen. The Macharius is really cool, I'd like to see more of them.


That said, the Tesseract Vault seems pretty strong enough, and the Stompa is getting buffed this codex and might be good, and they might revisit the Stormsurge some time.

The warlord I definitely understand and it never was a model intended for normal play by any means. But if we look at the equivalent scout titan class the super heavy fliers and some weirder things like the ordinatus. All of these previously had been for normal sized games point wise sure they took up a sizable chunk of the force but they held their own at their points cost some where previously even good (revenant/ double turbo warhound) but gw currently just said here each costs 2k and no rules changes from already bad index profiles. Very very few people would take the current revenant at 1200 that it was cause it God damn sucks but at 2k? It's actually offensive that a phantom isnt even 400 points more.

Titanicus wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, GW doesn't really seem to look at Forgeworld models, as long as they don't break the game. And Forgeworld doesn't seem to care very much.

All things considered, I have a hard time caring about the relative power level of a series of models whose points cost are higher than the size of an average game, though. Like, it doesn't really matter how well the Warlord titan is balanced, since it exists pretty far beyond the realm of reasonable play. Like, it exists for gaks and giggles and open play, so it doesn't really need a points cost, just take what is felt to be appropriate to oppose it.

I'd like to see the smaller FW super heavies, like the Macharius, Kill Tanks, etc. become usable, but I doubt it'll happen. The Macharius is really cool, I'd like to see more of them.


That said, the Tesseract Vault seems pretty strong enough, and the Stompa is getting buffed this codex and might be good, and they might revisit the Stormsurge some time.

The warlord I definitely understand and it never was a model intended for normal play by any means. But if we look at the equivalent scout titan class the super heavy fliers and some weirder things like the ordinatus. All of these previously had been for normal sized games point wise sure they took up a sizable chunk of the force but they held their own at their points cost some where previously even good (revenant/ double turbo warhound) but gw currently just said here each costs 2k and no rules changes from already bad index profiles. Very very few people would take the current revenant at 1200 that it was cause it God damn sucks but at 2k? It's actually offensive that a phantom isnt even 400 points more.

At the same time, it's like, a titan. It doesn't need to be balanced.

Also, the Warhound has 2 Macro 2d3 S16 AP3 D2d6 weapons, is T9 with a ridiculous number of wounds, and has a 4+ save versus almost everything. Each arm gun is already more powerful than a Shadowsword [considerably. It does double the damage in exchange for 1d3 less shots, but it also hits on a 2+], the thing coming up to 2k points doesn't actually sound unreasonable.



I don't think any of them are intended for normal play, and the point of the 2k price tag is to confine them to Open Play without actually putting "for Open Play only" on their datasheets. It's also pretty obvious that the Vulcan Mega Bolter isn't the same threat category as the Twin Turbo Laser, yet the titan is 2k points independent of it's weapon loadout, so they didn't really care about the points cost, because it's just sort of a general guideline. Also, given the nature of the Macro rule, they're pretty much for playing titan wars, and Adeptus Titanicus is the venue for that. Base 40k rules aren't very good for titan wars anyway. I can't really see a titan having value in a normal 40k game.

Like, I like a lot of Forgeworld's super heavies, and would like to see them used. But like, the titan costs as much as an entire army, that really shouldn't be a thing. If it's going to be a matched play unit, it needs to drop to under 1k points and have stats to match, or it can keep the arbitrarily powerful statline it has and just be "open play only, bring it with and face it with whatever you want, preferably another titan. Also, the Shadowsword is already testing how far the boundary of "this gun is too arbitrarily big for normal 40k" is, and is probably only "okay" through virtue of the fact that Imperial Knights are a thing.

That said, a precise costing of the titan chassis and it's weapon options would be really funny to see.


I would like to see the little super heavies get buffed, though. But I think the titans are fine.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I don't think any of them are intended for normal play, and the point of the 2k price tag is to confine them to Open Play without actually putting "for Open Play only" on their datasheets. It's also pretty obvious that the Vulcan Mega Bolter isn't the same threat category as the Twin Turbo Laser, yet the titan is 2k points independent of it's weapon loadout, so they didn't really care about the points cost, because it's just sort of a general guideline. Also, given the nature of the Macro rule, they're pretty much for playing titan wars, and Adeptus Titanicus is the venue for that. Base 40k rules aren't very good for titan wars anyway. I can't really see a titan having value in a normal 40k game.

Yep. GW designers are lazy as hell so rather than do any work just up the point cost to point of useless.

But actually it's even more simple reason. It's resin. GW doesn't want gamers to buy resin. 400£ on resin model gives GW less profit than 400£ on plastic. It has zero on balance or should it be used on matched play(certainly it's possible to balance warhound for 2k games if GW wanted) or not. It's money. Profit. The more money GW gets from plastic models over resin the better.

tneva82 wrote:
Stompa has chance though could take several iterations of codex. FW knights? Fat chance in hell. They are more likely looking at more nerfs.

I'm quietly confident in this. The weapons have all been tweaked for the better but would still need a points drop to be viable.

Didn't GW just outright buy FW? I would expect the FW stuff to get appropriate point costs just as quickly as GW can convert them to plastic kits under their own umbrella.

The Newman wrote:
Didn't GW just outright buy FW? I would expect the FW stuff to get appropriate point costs just as quickly as GW can convert them to plastic kits under their own umbrella.

FW has always been part of GW same as black library they just dont communicate well for who knows what reason since they share the same offices...

Titanicus wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Didn't GW just outright buy FW? I would expect the FW stuff to get appropriate point costs just as quickly as GW can convert them to plastic kits under their own umbrella.

FW has always been part of GW same as black library they just dont communicate well for who knows what reason since they share the same offices...

I remember hearing rumors that GW was planning to just fold FW into the mail line. I guess I'd just assumed FW was operating under some sort of licensing agreement with GW instead of being under the same ownership, if that had been true then GW would have had to buy FW to fold the line in.

I was reading between lines that weren't actually there.

The Newman wrote:
Didn't GW just outright buy FW? I would expect the FW stuff to get appropriate point costs just as quickly as GW can convert them to plastic kits under their own umbrella.

Forgeworld is and always has been just a different brand name used by Games Workshop for its boutique resin line. It was never a separate company. Conversion to plastic kits is certainly possible for some of the more popular FW designs, but really the point of FW is to do kits that they don't expect to sell in high volume and therefore wouldn't be economical to produce in plastic. Stuff for the hardcore collectors and modellers that the average gamer isn't interested in.

I expect that's why GW deliberately nerfed the points costs on FW units in the last Chapter Approved. They don't want gamers to feel as though they need to buy FW to be competitive. They'd rather the top competitive lists were all Citadel plastic. The aforementioned hardcore collectors and modellers will buy FW regardless of whether it's good in game, while the gamers can stick with Citadel. In some cases with the likes of the Revenant Titan they clearly took it too far in that it's incredibly underpowered for its points, but like Katherine said I suspect that's deliberate just to keep them out of normal point size matches. The Revenant at 1200 might not have been taken by many people, but it was feasible to take it in a 'normal' game. The points hike to 2K was designed to take it out of a normal game, balance be damned.

I get the sense of not needing to buy FW though ag the close of 7th they were pushing FW really hard compared to ever before.

And yeah at 1200 it sucked but I already have one and it's one of my favorite models I'd use it even if its gak but st 2k it's just not even comprehensible it would likely lose to a shadow sword if the eldar player goes second.

I believe that since the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh no one at GW seems to really know what to do with FW. He was a huge driving force behind a lot of what FW was producing/planing and since his health began to falter FW hasn't seem to do much than release things that had seem to have been in the pipe line already and release a few books to give models 8th edition rules, with many but not all units not being well balanced to the 40k indexes and certain not to most codex releases. Until GW gets someone in who has a similar level of passion for what FW produces it's going to kinda flounder in an odd spot.

Hopefully one day they'll just make everything in plastic and 75% cheaper. Wake me up when they give us a plastic Gargantuan Squiggoth.

Wasn't Forgeworld put in place by GW because they saw money going out the window with Armorcast making big, licensed kits?

I still have my Armorcast Baneblade and Shadowsword - I'd love to pick up a GW plastic kit to make one of the other superheavies, but they really seem to be of "lesser" concern to GW. From the talk I've seen around here, it really sounds like GW wants to move away from having anything bigger than Knights in the regular game.

I'd be cool with that. I remember the days when the only time you'd see the likes of a Baneblade was in a scenario "Stop the Beast" where the objective was to stop the enemy group from getting a Baneblade up and running (with it only getting a shot in on maybe the fifth turn...).

 Stormonu wrote:
Wasn't Forgeworld put in place by GW because they saw money going out the window with Armorcast making big, licensed kits?

I still have my Armorcast Baneblade and Shadowsword - I'd love to pick up a GW plastic kit to make one of the other superheavies, but they really seem to be of "lesser" concern to GW. From the talk I've seen around here, it really sounds like GW wants to move away from having anything bigger than Knights in the regular game.

I'd be cool with that. I remember the days when the only time you'd see the likes of a Baneblade was in a scenario "Stop the Beast" where the objective was to stop the enemy group from getting a Baneblade up and running (with it only getting a shot in on maybe the fifth turn...).

I think the blades are a good solid 1 unit in 1 army model... it;s when you see like 3 on the table you start to question if it's a good idea. I seriously saw a 2k point game with 3 of them and just the rest being guard buffers. Same with knights.... 1 or 2 is fine but any more and it's getting silly. 40k is supposed to be about the ground combat, apoc games are where the marines become invisible.

People shouldn't be fielding Titans in tournaments. Their points value is just fine where it is, for casual and narrative games where people aren't fixated on points and optimization.

And, notably...the power level of Forgeworld units remains unchanged. It's pretty clear they did this intentionally. This allows Titans etc. to be priced out of tournament appearances, yet show up in Apocalypse games (which you really should just use power level for anyway) without such a penalty. It was a pretty clever solution.

Typhon Heavy Siege Tank: Power Level 25 (roughly 500 points), current Chapter Approved cost: 700+ wargear. So it's not remotely worthwhile in a tournament setting, but is probably appropriately costed in an Apocalypse event using power level.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I believe that since the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh no one at GW seems to really know what to do with FW. He was a huge driving force behind a lot of what FW was producing/planing and since his health began to falter FW hasn't seem to do much than release things that had seem to have been in the pipe line already and release a few books to give models 8th edition rules, with many but not all units not being well balanced to the 40k indexes and certain not to most codex releases. Until GW gets someone in who has a similar level of passion for what FW produces it's going to kinda flounder in an odd spot.

For the last couple of years, Forge World has been becoming the Specialist Games imprint, rather than the imprint for "boutique" 40k models - they've done Blood Bowl, Middle Earth, Necromunda and Adeptus Titanicus.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


All things considered, I have a hard time caring about the relative power level of a series of models whose points cost are higher than the size of an average game, though. Like, it doesn't really matter how well the Warlord titan is balanced, since it exists pretty far beyond the realm of reasonable play. Like, it exists for gaks and giggles and open play, so it doesn't really need a points cost, just take what is felt to be appropriate to oppose it.

This is basically my opinion on it too. Titans and the like are for Apocalypse where there already is nothing but an extremely nebulous concept of balance.