Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Da Boss wrote: The really stupid thing about GW and base sizes is, it is totally possible to write the rules of the game so that base sizes have no in game effect. If I wanted to change the base sizes for aesthetic reasons (this must be the reason GW are doing it!) then I would just make sure that the base sizes were irrelevant. Saga does this for example - rather than measuring on an individual model basis, if a unit is in combat the entire unit is in combat. This is much simpler and less fiddly in game to work out, and means it really does not matter that base size you use.
The fact that GW doesn't design the game this way suggests they do not give a crap about players or they are too incompetent to see the problem or the obvious solution. Given their track record I sadly think it is the latter.
Edit to add: Were ork infantry lists over powered this edition? I had played Ork infantry from 3rd edition til 6th when I stopped playing 40K due to hating the way the rules had gone, but I was not under the impression that ork horde lists were that powerful in the current edition. If they are not overpowered then reducing their power further seems like a pretty dumb thing to do.
Seeing players support this is sad. Have ye no sense of fair play?
It's not so much about being better or worse per say personally.
It is the inconsistency that I hate as old players with 25mm bases will still do well and claim their is nothing wrong with the army while new players on 32mm's struggle.
If everyone is playing the same game with the same models atleast some hope exsist of it being noticed that even with a codex they suck. If running them on 25mm keeps them at the top tables GW will say jobs a good one while new players just learn to hate the army and it dies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 12:56:20
Nothing stops new players from using older bases. As Ork Boys were once on 25mms bases, this means some players will still use 25mm bases. As nothing in the game dictates different rules for a new player vs a "veteran", it is perfectly legal for a new player to pick up a box of Boys + some 25mm bases and use those. They shouldn't "have" to, but they can
Same goes for Space marines. If it was legal/supplied with the model as any point in the game's history, you should be able to use it. I feel GW intentionally does not address base size for this very reason. The player should be able to decide which base they feel is the best for their models....within reason. The "within reason" part is important and ultimately up to the player's community to dictate..
For example, Terminators used to be based on 25mm way, WAY back in the day. But now they are on 40mms. That's a big change. While using 25mms might be "legal" given the above guidelines, it should be frowned upon because the models themselves have goen thought many changes since them and really look and play better on 40mms.
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 14:08:46
One of the last subjective element left in the game is TLOS. This works well for skirmish games but not on a typical 2k pt games (as evidenced by 50% obscured, tip of lance on custodes jetbikes providing TLOS, etc). IMO, the primary branch of 40k matched play needs to do away with any Z-axis directional values completely and go strictly with base-to-base basis.
It's a war sim game, not a FPS. It needs more concrete sets of standards and rules, and in order to do so, certain elements needs to be abstracted further - i.e. base sizes.
Base size is essentially the concept of "hit box" on the table top, and it should be brought up to a level of certain uniformity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 14:08:12
JohnnyHell wrote: Entire unit in combat then doesn’t vibe with conga lines to auras, as you end up with guys who must have 20 metre chainswords if they can hit from miles away. Making bases sizes irrelevant impacts on other areas. It’s not incompetence - it’s a choice. Dislike it, cool, but don’t pretend ignoring base sizes doesn’t break other areas of the current rules.
You could also make coherency a matter of being within a certain range of the unit leader, rather than being next to a single other model. That will make units for blobs round the leader, rather than long chains. That's something for a major revision, though.
Or just say ranges are measured to/from the models' heads (or suitable alternative, in the case of things without a head) and adjust as necessary. Then base size is irrelevant, other than stopping the model falling over.
I suspect that most ork players genuinely don't care too much about the nerf it brings to have the bigger bases (though it's probably an unnecessary nerf now they've gone up to 7pts)
I also believe they look fine on 32mm, maybe a little better than 25mm (though personally I don't really think the difference in looks amounts to much).
The only thing I DO care about is if players ask me to rebase 120 models at a huge cost in time and some probably damage to the feet of the models, just cos GW is rebasing for aesthetics. If they really want to nerf boyz further, I would be a lot less unhappy if they just made them cost more points or something.
I won't be rebasing until GW actually writes it in the rules that you have to rebase old models to new bases in matched play. They were assembled with the bases they were supplied with.
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
I suspect that most ork players genuinely don't care too much about the nerf it brings to have the bigger bases (though it's probably an unnecessary nerf now they've gone up to 7pts)
I also believe they look fine on 32mm, maybe a little better than 25mm (though personally I don't really think the difference in looks amounts to much).
The only thing I DO care about is if players ask me to rebase 120 models at a huge cost in time and some probably damage to the feet of the models, just cos GW is rebasing for aesthetics. If they really want to nerf boyz further, I would be a lot less unhappy if they just made them cost more points or something.
I won't be rebasing until GW actually writes it in the rules that you have to rebase old models to new bases in matched play. They were assembled with the bases they were supplied with.
This. This is a perfectly acceptable attitude/approach to the current given situation.
I only recently rebased my bikers on the 75mm ovals from the 70mm round rectangle bases. Now their weapons don't get tangled up with each others when I have them stored away, and it looks MUCH better on the oval bases.
Issue of base sizes will only come to play once they establish a "suggested matched play base standards" like in AoS, so in the meanwhile, lets not bring out the pitchforks and lit torches and scream "NERF"
Galef wrote: Nothing stops new players from using older bases. As Ork Boys were once on 25mms bases, this means some players will still use 25mm bases. As nothing in the game dictates different rules for a new player vs a "veteran", it is perfectly legal for a new player to pick up a box of Boys + some 25mm bases and use those. They shouldn't "have" to, but they can
Same goes for Space marines. If it was legal/supplied with the model as any point in the game's history, you should be able to use it. I feel GW intentionally does not address base size for this very reason. The player should be able to decide which base they feel is the best for their models....within reason.
The "within reason" part is important and ultimately up to the player's community to dictate..
For example, Terminators used to be based on 25mm way, WAY back in the day. But now they are on 40mms.
That's a big change. While using 25mms might be "legal" given the above guidelines, it should be frowned upon because the models themselves have goen thought many changes since them and really look and play better on 40mms.
-
So why is me using my 25mm terminators and 25mm Calgar model "should be frowned upon, but buying new ork units and 25mm bases is OK? What is Terminators at 25mm actually are ok and not feelbad to play would that make it ok?
Your setting a weird double standards.
I'm not saying anything about what their power level is, but if base size is such an issue to their power people placing in tournaments with 25mm's will hide how bad or not 32mm boys are.
If everyone playes at 32mm and place like GK's then their is evidence that GW should rightly be forced toadmit their over nerf and address it in FAQ3. (Or atleast in CA 2019, I would rather orks didn't have to wait untill CA 2019 to get playable units).
They'll lose attacks for sure, as less boyz will get into combat, but I wonder if the additional board control from bigger bases make up for this at all?
Almost nothing. The extra base size does not allow any ork to run farther, it just makes more of their "bulk" hang back towards the deployment zone. You DO get more coverage in the deployment zone because of this, but that isn't where ork boyz want to be.
But can't Orks rapidly redeploy that bulk with the Tellaporta stratagem or with Da Jump? I'm just looking for a silver lining here.
This is true. On a deep strike, a 30-strong unit can conga line all across the board, if that is desirable. If it can charge one unit from there, it could theoretically pile in to an entire army. With 32mm bases, that line is 8 inches longer (96 vs 88).
Area effects are similar, and could possibly kill a flyer. The 32s would be slightly better at this.
Galef wrote: Nothing stops new players from using older bases. As Ork Boys were once on 25mms bases, this means some players will still use 25mm bases. As nothing in the game dictates different rules for a new player vs a "veteran", it is perfectly legal for a new player to pick up a box of Boys + some 25mm bases and use those. They shouldn't "have" to, but they can
Same goes for Space marines. If it was legal/supplied with the model as any point in the game's history, you should be able to use it. I feel GW intentionally does not address base size for this very reason. The player should be able to decide which base they feel is the best for their models....within reason.
The "within reason" part is important and ultimately up to the player's community to dictate..
For example, Terminators used to be based on 25mm way, WAY back in the day. But now they are on 40mms.
That's a big change. While using 25mms might be "legal" given the above guidelines, it should be frowned upon because the models themselves have goen thought many changes since them and really look and play better on 40mms.
-
So why is me using my 25mm terminators and 25mm Calgar model "should be frowned upon, but buying new ork units and 25mm bases is OK? What is Terminators at 25mm actually are ok and not feelbad to play would that make it ok?
Your setting a weird double standards.
I'm not saying anything about what their power level is, but if base size is such an issue to their power people placing in tournaments with 25mm's will hide how bad or not 32mm boys are.
If everyone playes at 32mm and place like GK's then their is evidence that GW should rightly be forced toadmit their over nerf and address it in FAQ3. (Or atleast in CA 2019, I would rather orks didn't have to wait untill CA 2019 to get playable units).
Two reasons: 1 - terminators are generalists, and not created specifically as a horde assault unit. They suffer in tight spaces, this is true. But with 5 models the effect is much less pronounced, even with 40s. The net effect on the unit is less. Choppa boyz exist for one purpose, and one purpose only--4 deep charges.
2 - Terminators should be priced appropriately, just like boyz should be on 32s. I think GW realizes their mistake on termies. If they choose to do nothing, it's because they want you to buy new models. But the chance of termies getting an appropriate price (possibly in 2 months) is small but it exists.
In two days, boyz go from 6 points to 7. The chance of 32mm boyz going to an appropriate 5 points is zero.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 15:55:23
nareik wrote: Pretty sure any play testing would have been on 25s.
How are you sure of this?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
nareik wrote: Pretty sure any play testing would have been on 25s.
How are you sure of this?
would suggest because its very unlikely GW paid to rebase a large orc army or several for such testing, and likely don't have a large in house ork army on 32mm bases themselves
If so, why were they on 25s for all those years? Was that a mistake?
Accept the new reality, or don't. It doesn't sound like you play in tournaments so youre really not the target audience as far as this discussion goes since nobody outside of your local gaming group will care if your fourth row swings or not. This only matters for competitive where you can have a new Ork player at a disadvantage to an old one. Both against the old Ork player and relatively against any of their other opponents.
I fully expect index options to eventually be removed from matched play/competitive as well. It creates way too many headaches in the long run to carve out exceptions than it does to just say "go with the most current models."
If so, why were they on 25s for all those years? Was that a mistake?
Because GW have changed the base they are on now?
That's awesome, GW can either send me free bases then or they can kiss my ass. Models don't expire, they aren't fruit. My newer models are on the bases they came with, my older models are on bases they came with. I'm not ripping my models apart a decade plus later because they suddenly decided to find another way to pump money out of it's fanbase.
If so, why were they on 25s for all those years? Was that a mistake?
Because GW have changed the base they are on now?
That's awesome, GW can either send me free bases then or they can kiss my ass. Models don't expire, they aren't fruit. My newer models are on the bases they came with, my older models are on bases they came with. I'm not ripping my models apart a decade plus later because they suddenly decided to find another way to pump money out of it's fanbase.
And if you'd read my posts, I said that was perfectly fine because the rules allow it. However, don't expect everyone to go along with that since the new standard is 32mm bases.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 01:46:40
Are you guys aware that 32mm bases can fight in 4 ranks? They just have to be in a slightly staggered pattern (6mm apart). I did some geometry, and on a frontage of 100mm exactly 16 25mm bases can fit, while with 32mm bases about 10,5 fit. Sure there is a difference, but it's not like less ranks can fight. I attached a picture to illustrate
Also where are you guys planning on buying 32mm bases? I cant find any deal from gw, so alternatives? [img]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 01:54:59
If so, why were they on 25s for all those years? Was that a mistake?
Because GW have changed the base they are on now?
That's awesome, GW can either send me free bases then or they can kiss my ass. Models don't expire, they aren't fruit. My newer models are on the bases they came with, my older models are on bases they came with. I'm not ripping my models apart a decade plus later because they suddenly decided to find another way to pump money out of it's fanbase.
And if you'd read my posts, I said that was perfectly fine because the rules allow it. However, don't expect everyone to go along with that since the new standard is 32mm bases.
Question then, would you have an issue with someone using an older model that has current rules? It's technically not the current standard. For instance I have a chaplain model from the 90s that is a head smaller than current standard marines. Should I put him in a draw and forget he exists because he isn't as big as the current model. The idea of standards for models that need to be updated is silly, and is harmful to the hobby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 02:13:20
HoundsofDemos wrote: The idea of standards for models that need to be updated is silly, and is harmful to the hobby.
And that is where I disagree. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to update the base of your models after 10-20 years.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Question then, would you have an issue with someone using an older model that has current rules? It's technically not the current standard. For instance I have a chaplain model from the 90s that is a head smaller than current standard marines. Should I put him in a draw and forget he exists because he isn't as big as the current model.
I assume you are not familiar with my reputation. Of course I would be ok with it because the rules currently allow you to do so. That doesn't mean the majority of people would (as I have been informed multiple times, the "majority" don't play by the rules). Also, me being "okay" with it doesn't mean I agree with it. If I had my way base size would be a stat on the datasheet and (for matched play at least) be enforced.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 02:18:34
Marine players (loyalist) went through this already. My entire Raven Guard force is unplayable in tournaments because its still on 25's which was the standard when I built it in 5th edition.
All my bases were custom made by me so I have yet to find the drive to upgrade them. But that's my choice and I accept it as such.
I used it as personal incentive to start building and play a new army. At some point I'll go back and upgrade the bases.
I feel like I'm the only person that thinks boyz are fine on 25mm. I could see 32mm on any other Ork infantry but boyz don't feel like they need it. I mean, you're sometimes taking 30, smaller base makes sense.
I'll show ye..... - Phillip J. Fry
Those are brave men knocking on our door! Let's go kill them! - Tyrion Lannister
I've been playing since 2nd edition and all my orks and marines have been on 25s. Everyone I have played against since then have used 25s. People who just joined the game and those who hate an ork green tide need to relax. If tournaments want to ban the 25s ork players need not go and let the organizers know about it. GW needs to make a decision. Due they want to drive away all the old ork players or do they want to sell them all the new shiny models they are just putting out. If they want to drive me and my money away that's their decision.
Pointer5 wrote: I've been playing since 2nd edition and all my orks and marines have been on 25s. Everyone I have played against since then have used 25s. People who just joined the game and those who hate an ork green tide need to relax. If tournaments want to ban the 25s ork players need not go and let the organizers know about it. GW needs to make a decision. Due they want to drive away all the old ork players or do they want to sell them all the new shiny models they are just putting out. If they want to drive me and my money away that's their decision.
Persecution complex much? They changed them to 32mm because they changed them to 32mm. They didn't do it to "drive away all the old ork players" because you can still use your old models. If you're playing tournaments you have to be willing to deal with rebasing. If you're not then it doesn't affect you in the slightest.
Also, if you've already bought your models, how can they be "driving you and your money away"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 03:22:15
I do find it a bit interesting that Ork players are angry at something others of us have had to do beforehand over the years. Space Marines and Necrons to 32mm and Terminators to 40mm, Bikers to the new ovals, and so on. It's going to continue until GW is happy with how it looks or whatever reasoning they have for this(I personally just think the larger bases look better).
Regarding a game being gak if it cares about base size then you haven't played many miniature games. Warmahordes has very strict base rules, X-Wing has very strict base rules(with a base scale creep happening between 1.0 and 2.0). Bases are the best unit of measurement of the abstract game that is tabletop wargaming.
Now, does it suck if you have everything based and spent a lot of time it? Definitely, not going to argue that. There are, however, solutions. I personally just glue the old existing base on top of another larger base and create a little terrain/basing out of the thing(steps, skulls, whatever). It does increase the height of the model a bit, but for old Terminators it just puts them in line with the new ones. The second option is to buy those converters some outlets are selling.
Which brings me to my own personal gripe regarding the base change. I can deal with as it is a part of the game as it progresses. Wouldn't be the first game or the last. Games change and the rules evolve. What annoys me about the entire thing is that GW hasn't sold their own conversion kits making everyone rely on Third Party suppliers.
Regarding power of Orks between 25mm and 32mm my guess is we'll see when the Ork codex comes out. Then the proof will be in the pudding so to speak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 10:04:27
1000pts Space Marines 
2500pts Blood Angels 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
Standing in the light, I see only darkness. 
