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Bingo.
And I don't see that rule that you use the base they come with anymore, and GW keeps changing FAQs, it is actually written somewhere?
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As I've said at least four times now, RaW you can base your models however you want. If you want to put your grots on 60mm bases, that's legal. If you want to put your Knights on 25mm bases, also legal. But we're not talking about legality here because, as I have been informed, most people don't follow the rules. The whole concept of "Use the base they came on" is a social standard, not a rules standard. I personally disagree with both the social and the current rules standard. If I had my way base size would be a statistic on the datasheet (with "No Base" and "Flying Base" as options too) and be strictly enforced in matched play at the very least (with open play being whatever you want because who cares). However, since GW won't let me work for them for free to fix their rules, the rules are what the rules are and I would never dare to inform someone that because I don't like a rule I won't follow it.
From my own anecdotal experiences, people tend to dislike when people use the "wrong" base size, whether that is 25mm Terminators or 25mm Space Marines and (from now on I assume) 25mm Boyz and Nobz. I can only hope that tournaments do start enforcing base sizes (and lets face it anyone who enjoys playing 40k at tournaments is not the kind of person to get upset about needing to rebase their models) and GarageHammer will continue on as it always has, regardless of RaW, FAQs or Unwritten Constitutions.
Ok, that makes sense.
But I've always interpreted it as "Use the base the model CAME with" meaning any valid base size the particular model has ever been supplied with.
So If I bought a box of Orks last month, they CAME with 25mm
If I buy as box next month, they will have CAME with 32mm.
So Orks come with either 25mm or 32mm depending on when and where you bought them. So under the "social contract" either base is acceptable.
I've never interpreted it as you exact model came with this specific 32mm base, so it must be this base. It cannot be that 32mm that cam in a different box, it must be THIS 32mm that came with its box. If that were the case, then no one should ever be allowed to use scenic bases.
People typically only get huffy when the base sizes are different. If you are using a scenic 32 instead of a flat 32, I have never read nor seen anyone care about that instance.
There are pros and cons to having different size bases.
The one that people light on the most is that if they up the size then if you use a smaller size you're getting more models into contact and thus more attacks.
The downside is that if you are on a smaller base you don't take up as much tablespace. Which means screening operations and objective holding are more difficult.
The only intent that is currently written that I know about from Games Workshop is with regards to AOS where they have a suggested base size chart but specifically mention that the base your model came with is legal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 17:57:15
Da Boss wrote: I am at a bit of a loss as to why nerfing orks is good for the health of the game, and also disagree that "the sort of player that plays at tournaments" would not mind rebasing all their miniatures. I think I have 220 or so 25mm based boyz in my most commonly used list. Damn right I would be butthurt about having to rebase it, especially since it is against the rules.
It should be more than trivial to get all of your dudes in to fight. Especially with how easy it is to get a 9" charge for Orks with updated 'Ere we go, and also the ability to make it an 8" charge out of DS.
Finally, in a 'scale' standpoint, marines are T4 1W and are on 32mm, why not Orks?
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
auticus wrote: People typically only get huffy when the base sizes are different. If you are using a scenic 32 instead of a flat 32, I have never read nor seen anyone care about that instance.
That's because a few mm difference in height is generally a lot less significant in the game than a few mm difference in width. Especially on a melee unit.
Also you absolutely do get people getting huffy when a model is modelled much higher or lower than usual.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 18:05:38
I've never seen anyone flip a table over a few mm in height. I've seen people pull the low crawling eldar wraith knight stuff before and that caused a great deal of angst, but never have in 20 years seen anyone care about a few mm in height from a scenic base.
I suppose different regions have different standards though so that's a new one for me to learn today
I would never change bases because of a rule change, because what's to prevent GW from changing the rule again? I did change some ork bases on my own, putting the nobs in my army on 32mm to distinguish them a bit more from regular boys.
amanita wrote: I did change some ork bases on my own, putting the nobs in my army on 32mm to distinguish them a bit more from regular boys.
I appreciate little things like this.
I think the most important thing is to be consistent. If you're a long-time player that has your models on 25mms, you should continue to put any new models of the same type on 25mm. Just do not mix 25mm and 32mm in the same army for the same type of model, unless it MEANS something, like having your Boyz on 25s and your Nobs on 32s.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 19:34:13
amanita wrote: I did change some ork bases on my own, putting the nobs in my army on 32mm to distinguish them a bit more from regular boys.
I appreciate little things like this.
I think the most important thing is to be consistent. If you're a long-time player that has your models on 25mms, you should continue to put any new models of the same type on 25mm.
Just do not mix 25mm and 32mm in the same army for the same type of model, unless it MEANS something, like having your Boyz on 25s and your Nobs on 32s.
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That sounds like a fine approach, but I think people should be encouraged to stick with 32mm - especially new players as they may find themselves stuck in a corner if they ever want to play in tournaments that enforce a base size.
Daedalus81 wrote: ..... want to play in tournaments that enforce a base size.
I guess my stance is that no tourney should EVER enforce base size by requiring the latest base be used. It's fine to only allow any base a particular model has ever been supplied with, as we do need some restriction to prevent people doing crazy things But requiring the newest, latest base, is an unfair requirement.
If someone wants to spend the time and money rebasing to use whichever size is "best", that should be their choice. But just because a kit has been updated, you should not require older players to spend that same time, money and effort if they do not want to.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 20:07:47
Daedalus81 wrote: ..... want to play in tournaments that enforce a base size.
I guess my stance is that no tourney should EVER enforce base size by requiring the latest base be used. It's fine to only allow any base a particular model has ever been supplied with, but requiring the newest, latest base, is an unfair requirement.
If someone wants to spend the time and money rebasing to use whichever size is "best", that should be their choice. But just because a kit has been updated, you should not require older players to spend that same time, money and effort if they do not want to.
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No-one is "requiring" anything of anyone. If a tournament wants to house rule that certain models must have certain bases, that's perfectly within their remit. Likewise, if you don't like it you don't have to go to those tournaments. And if you still want to play tournaments with your old, strictly superior models, make your own tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 20:08:17
Da Boss wrote: I am at a bit of a loss as to why nerfing orks is good for the health of the game, and also disagree that "the sort of player that plays at tournaments" would not mind rebasing all their miniatures. I think I have 220 or so 25mm based boyz in my most commonly used list. Damn right I would be butthurt about having to rebase it, especially since it is against the rules.
It should be more than trivial to get all of your dudes in to fight. Especially with how easy it is to get a 9" charge for Orks with updated 'Ere we go, and also the ability to make it an 8" charge out of DS.
Finally, in a 'scale' standpoint, marines are T4 1W and are on 32mm, why not Orks?
Have you tried it? Set up a knight or other large base near other models, then teleport 40 32mm boyz in and charge them. Use 11 for your charge roll.
IF the boyz can nearly surround the knight, it is easy. If they are forced into a blob or a wedge-shape, and can only go 11 inches, see how many get in the first 3 rows.
Da Boss wrote: I am at a bit of a loss as to why nerfing orks is good for the health of the game, and also disagree that "the sort of player that plays at tournaments" would not mind rebasing all their miniatures. I think I have 220 or so 25mm based boyz in my most commonly used list. Damn right I would be butthurt about having to rebase it, especially since it is against the rules.
It should be more than trivial to get all of your dudes in to fight. Especially with how easy it is to get a 9" charge for Orks with updated 'Ere we go, and also the ability to make it an 8" charge out of DS.
Finally, in a 'scale' standpoint, marines are T4 1W and are on 32mm, why not Orks?
Have you tried it? Set up a knight or other large base near other models, then teleport 40 32mm boyz in and charge them. Use 11 for your charge roll.
IF the boyz can nearly surround the knight, it is easy. If they are forced into a blob or a wedge-shape, and can only go 11 inches, see how many get in the first 3 rows.
Just playing along with this idea in real life setting - what's stopping the knight from just falling back? I mean, I'm assuming your charging with 4 ranks of boyz to tie up the knight, no? If that's the case, wouldn't it be easier to trap it in with 32mm bases intead?
Daedalus81 wrote: ..... want to play in tournaments that enforce a base size.
I guess my stance is that no tourney should EVER enforce base size by requiring the latest base be used. It's fine to only allow any base a particular model has ever been supplied with, but requiring the newest, latest base, is an unfair requirement.
If someone wants to spend the time and money rebasing to use whichever size is "best", that should be their choice. But just because a kit has been updated, you should not require older players to spend that same time, money and effort if they do not want to.
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No-one is "requiring" anything of anyone. If a tournament wants to house rule that certain models must have certain bases, that's perfectly within their remit. Likewise, if you don't like it you don't have to go to those tournaments. And if you still want to play tournaments with your old, strictly superior models, make your own tournaments.
But it isn't that simple. Some people do not get the opportunity to play casual games and use tournaments as a way to pack several games in a single day. If a TO is that staunch about base size and the player in question has older models, I hope you can see how that isn't a fair judgment on the TOs part.
Having "house rules" is fine, but they should always be for the benefit of the players, not the detriment. Enforcing base size (other than the reasonable restriction that you have to use some version of a base the model has once been on) is a detriment.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 20:46:34
Daedalus81 wrote: ..... want to play in tournaments that enforce a base size.
I guess my stance is that no tourney should EVER enforce base size by requiring the latest base be used.
It's fine to only allow any base a particular model has ever been supplied with, as we do need some restriction to prevent people doing crazy things
But requiring the newest, latest base, is an unfair requirement.
If someone wants to spend the time and money rebasing to use whichever size is "best", that should be their choice.
But just because a kit has been updated, you should not require older players to spend that same time, money and effort if they do not want to.
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What is more unfair? A unit that can come in blocks of 30 and is way stronger when on 25mms or having to buy blue tack and base extenders?
I'm not saying Boyz will be broken on 25s, but they could be and they'll be on the receiving end of tournament restrictions.
Genestealers should probably expect the same when GSC comes out (god knows those models need it anyway).
Daedalus81 wrote: ..... want to play in tournaments that enforce a base size.
I guess my stance is that no tourney should EVER enforce base size by requiring the latest base be used. It's fine to only allow any base a particular model has ever been supplied with, but requiring the newest, latest base, is an unfair requirement.
If someone wants to spend the time and money rebasing to use whichever size is "best", that should be their choice. But just because a kit has been updated, you should not require older players to spend that same time, money and effort if they do not want to.
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No-one is "requiring" anything of anyone. If a tournament wants to house rule that certain models must have certain bases, that's perfectly within their remit. Likewise, if you don't like it you don't have to go to those tournaments. And if you still want to play tournaments with your old, strictly superior models, make your own tournaments.
But it isn't that simple. Some people do not get the opportunity to play casual games and use tournaments as a way to pack several games in a single day. If a TO is that staunch about base size and the player in question has older models, I hope you can see how that isn't a fair judgment on the TOs part.
Having "house rules" is fine, but they should always be for the benefit of the players, not the detriment.
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And from my perspective, the house rule to standardise base sizes is for the benefit of the players. It stops that one WAAC 16 year old from putting all his models on 25mm bases and saying "I bought these 20 years ago, honest." and having a MASSIVE advantage over a newer player who bought the new ork kits.
Again I will put the disclaimer and say I'd be totally fine with whatever bases you want to use, but the "most recent" base size is what I think should be enforced, especially for organised play where you need a clear and fair ruleset for everyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 20:40:11
No, the whole point is to kill it...or at least work on that.
.....You... aren't serious about this are you?
A single swing of choppa from a boy has .0370 chance of wounding a T8 +3 Sv knight.
This would mean that mathematically you need 648 basic, unbuffed swings from a choppa to kill a knight.
Assuming 7 ppm boyz in a unit of 20+ boyz, in a vacuum, that would equate to 1,134 points worth of boyz. That sounds like a terrible way to deal with knights if you ask me.
11 inches of charge + 3 inches of pile in is enough to get 30 boyz to fight.
Because 3 rows can fight /w 25 mm bases. That means you need 10 boyz within 1" to get 30 to fight.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: 11 inches of charge + 3 inches of pile in is enough to get 30 boyz to fight.
Because 3 rows can fight /w 25 mm bases. That means you need 10 boyz within 1" to get 30 to fight.
A unit of 30 boyz deal on average 4.44 W against a knight where all 30 boyz are swinging all 4 attacks at the knight. Lets assume they sourced a re-roll hit from somewhere: thats 5.92 W's. What if they have re-roll hits AND wound? 10.86 W against the knight.
Saying "32mm boyz are worth significantly less when trying to kill a knight" is a poor excuse for justifying why boyz shouldn't be on 32mm bases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 21:58:11
No, the whole point is to kill it...or at least work on that.
.....You... aren't serious about this are you?
A single swing of choppa from a boy has .0370 chance of wounding a T8 +3 Sv knight.
This would mean that mathematically you need 648 basic, unbuffed swings from a choppa to kill a knight.
Assuming 7 ppm boyz in a unit of 20+ boyz, in a vacuum, that would equate to 1,134 points worth of boyz. That sounds like a terrible way to deal with knights if you ask me.
I am deadly serious. Which is why we need 25 mm bases...
40 boyz who can all swing will get 6 wounds on the knight. Which is, considering, pretty close to fair, as 280 points killing 1/4 of a 400 point model in one turn is pretty ballpark for non-broken 40k (using the metric of a unit killing 1/3 of its own points per turn).
That's why I'm pretty salty about this whole thing. If you lose a quarter of those swings, it starts to get ugly really fast.
Some of this salt comes from the fact that orks had almost no ranged d6 damage and could do practically nothing against knights. The choppa boyz dropping 6 damage was one of our only options. With the codex, that is no longer true, and so "death by 648 cuts" may not be needed as much.
nevertheless, paying 7 points for a boy only to not get to use him at all is no fun (remember, after the boyz get that one attack the other side will fall back and vaporize all 40 of them.) making them bigger puts a big chunk of them out of their attack range, but still in plain view of the lasguns (et al) that did not get this nerf, on 32s OR 25s.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: 11 inches of charge + 3 inches of pile in is enough to get 30 boyz to fight.
Because 3 rows can fight /w 25 mm bases. That means you need 10 boyz within 1" to get 30 to fight.
Yes, but 30 is not enough. We paid for 40, shouldn't we get to use 40?
Also, 10 32s do not always fit on the front line. If there is terrain or other units flanking the knight, the boyz can't occupy that space no matter how big the bases are. The best solution is to pack in as many as possible into a narrow, dense line, and back that up with 3 more rows.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 22:47:22
No, the whole point is to kill it...or at least work on that.
.....You... aren't serious about this are you?
A single swing of choppa from a boy has .0370 chance of wounding a T8 +3 Sv knight.
This would mean that mathematically you need 648 basic, unbuffed swings from a choppa to kill a knight.
Assuming 7 ppm boyz in a unit of 20+ boyz, in a vacuum, that would equate to 1,134 points worth of boyz. That sounds like a terrible way to deal with knights if you ask me.
I am deadly serious. Which is why we need 25 mm bases...
40 boyz who can all swing will get 6 wounds on the knight. Which is, considering, pretty close to fair, as 280 points killing 1/4 of a 400 point model in one turn is pretty ballpark for non-broken 40k (using the metric of a unit killing 1/3 of its own points per turn).
That's why I'm pretty salty about this whole thing. If you lose a quarter of those swings, it starts to get ugly really fast.
Some of this salt comes from the fact that orks had almost no ranged d6 damage and could do practically nothing against knights. The choppa boyz dropping 6 damage was one of our only options. With the codex, that is no longer true, and so "death by 648 cuts" may not be needed as much.
nevertheless, paying 7 points for a boy only to not get to use him at all is no fun (remember, after the boyz get that one attack the other side will fall back and vaporize all 40 of them.) making them bigger puts a big chunk of them out of their attack range, but still in plain view of the lasguns (et al) that did not get this nerf, on 32s OR 25s.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: 11 inches of charge + 3 inches of pile in is enough to get 30 boyz to fight.
Because 3 rows can fight /w 25 mm bases. That means you need 10 boyz within 1" to get 30 to fight.
Yes, but 30 is not enough. We paid for 40, shouldn't we get to use 40?
Also, 10 32s do not always fit on the front line. If there is terrain or other units flanking the knight, the boyz can't occupy that space no matter how big the bases are. The best solution is to pack in as many as possible into a narrow, dense line, and back that up with 3 more rows.
Let us hope the ork codex is better internally balanced so resorting to 40 boyz is not the best solution to fighting a knight!
skchsan wrote: Let us hope the ork codex is better internally balanced so resorting to 40 boyz is not the best solution to fighting a knight!
I am almost certain that it is not even if it means clearing the whole table except the knight.
It is better. Mek guns have better range and damage, the new buggies hit pretty hard and quite a few things got huge point drops. Plus a 16% across the board shooting increase.
Enough to drop 2000 points of knights? Nope. Still need choppas, at least to finish them off.
a) I do have hundreds of orks actually. Total model count for my orks is ATM 520 and this doesn't include pile of orks in box and unassembled boxes
b) it's not just bases but movement trays(enough to cover all the models and some spare to differentiate different clans and unit size combinations) to ensure games end up within the ~2.5h I have to play. Those would go to garbage bin because funny that 32mm bases don't fit 25mm base movement trays.
Five hundred and twenty orks Hopefully you won't have to go through the hassle of rebasing them all!
No, the whole point is to kill it...or at least work on that.
Well, while they can fall back over infantry and swarm models, they still have to be more than 1" away from enemy units. They might have a harder time doing that with the larger footprint of a unit on 32mm bases
Hopefully you won't have to go through the hassle of rebasing them all!
