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NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
If you ignore the points cost of the officer giving the order by my rough maths a unit of Guardsmen with FRFSRF would kill roughly half their points cost in Space Marines per shooting phase.
NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
I'd argue that's more a problem of guardsmen and not marines.
The new Ork Boyz (7 points) is not mathematically competitive with guardsmen either, and instead competes with marines.
I'd say its a definite of point increases for GEQ troops across the board come CA
NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
Bolters having no AP what so ever really hurts. It used to be if I wound a lot of light infantry that model is dead unless it has cover. Now you get your save and if your in cover guardsmen are shrugging off hits half the time.
If you juice them with FW units space marines are okay. Sicaran variants, deredeos, quad mortars, etc. add the missing pieces need I think for many space marine lists. Pure codex outside of 1 or two builds, not really. They are just designed poorly for 8th. There are a hundred threads on how to fix marines so look at your leisure but I also wanted to note just using space marines isn't an auto-lose either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 01:04:56
NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
I'd argue that's more a problem of guardsmen and not marines.
The new Ork Boyz (7 points) is not mathematically competitive with guardsmen either, and instead competes with marines.
I'd say its a definite of point increases for GEQ troops across the board come CA
Yeah Guardsmen are nearly guaranteed to get a points cost increase and in any case CA is finalized and probably already being printed. This whole debate is just hilarious because there’s never a new point getting brought up and it just goes in circles for months and months.
bananathug wrote: None of the marine armies ended up in the top 25. None ended up with less than 2 losses. Meanwhile index orcs > 5 codexes of marines...
Mostly because of Eldar soup (cough Marmatag, cough) and knights (you know, the meta) which marines just don't have the tools to deal with efficiently outside of one off builds (MW spam/neg to hit stacking) now that BA slam captains are dead and regular captains can't fly over screens.
Hopefully CA changes something. If not 2-1/4-2 is not so bad of a goal...
as noted earlier in this thread mono marines pulled off 15th at NOVA
NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
Bolters having no AP what so ever really hurts. It used to be if I wound a lot of light infantry that model is dead unless it has cover. Now you get your save and if your in cover guardsmen are shrugging off hits half the time.
I ask: is the new AP system an improvement? Is only Marine-type(tier?) infantry that is at a disadvantage, or the benefit of the new system is illusory? Perhaps it needs a topic on its own.
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
Bolters having no AP what so ever really hurts. It used to be if I wound a lot of light infantry that model is dead unless it has cover. Now you get your save and if your in cover guardsmen are shrugging off hits half the time.
I ask: is the new AP system an improvement? Is only Marine-type(tier?) infantry that is at a disadvantage, or the benefit of the new system is illusory? Perhaps it needs a topic on its own.
It's a better system, but kept too simple in its implementation.
I'd rather see AP change depending on what tag its firing at.
bananathug wrote: None of the marine armies ended up in the top 25. None ended up with less than 2 losses. Meanwhile index orcs > 5 codexes of marines...
Mostly because of Eldar soup (cough Marmatag, cough) and knights (you know, the meta) which marines just don't have the tools to deal with efficiently outside of one off builds (MW spam/neg to hit stacking) now that BA slam captains are dead and regular captains can't fly over screens.
Hopefully CA changes something. If not 2-1/4-2 is not so bad of a goal...
as noted earlier in this thread mono marines pulled off 15th at NOVA
NurglesR0T wrote: So each time a unit of Guardsmen fires with FRFSRF at marines, it on average, makes it's points back?
When a Marine is nearly 3 times the cost of a Guardsmen - and barely more lethal, issues start to surface.
Bolters having no AP what so ever really hurts. It used to be if I wound a lot of light infantry that model is dead unless it has cover. Now you get your save and if your in cover guardsmen are shrugging off hits half the time.
I ask: is the new AP system an improvement? Is only Marine-type(tier?) infantry that is at a disadvantage, or the benefit of the new system is illusory? Perhaps it needs a topic on its own.
It's a better system, but kept too simple in its implementation.
I'd rather see AP change depending on what tag its firing at.
They were nearly there with the cover system granting +1 (helping offset -AP).
If they expand the terrain rules and cover system to be actually relevant (without going full 7th edition and just making EVERYTHING a cover save) I think that would be a good middle ground without drastically needing to revise every codex. Perhaps.
As marines are worst effected by AP, generally speaking, I wonder if errata'ing a rule something like that Power Armour of all types reduces AP by 1 to a minimum of 1. So AP -3 becomes -2 but -1 is still -1. Not sure how that really play out in actual reality though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 03:22:48
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
buddha wrote: If you juice them with FW units space marines are okay. Sicaran variants, deredeos, quad mortars, etc. add the missing pieces need I think for many space marine lists. Pure codex outside of 1 or two builds, not really. They are just designed poorly for 8th. There are a hundred threads on how to fix marines so look at your leisure but I also wanted to note just using space marines isn't an auto-lose either.
Or you throw in a Levithian Dread and watch everything die.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Bolters having no AP what so ever really hurts. It used to be if I wound a lot of light infantry that model is dead unless it has cover. Now you get your save and if your in cover guardsmen are shrugging off hits half the time
I think it's more that guardsmen should have been changed to have no save. When AP was introduced the saves of models should have been reallocated to fit the new system but GW only did half the job.
But Marines should not ever be more points efficient that guard in a face to face ranged weapon meatgrinder scenario - I think here the loss of blasts and templates have also inadvertently disadvantaged the more elite units by allowing the cheaper units to pack tighter and reduce the effect of being rolled up piecemeal.
Asherian Command wrote: I have lost every game with space marines at my store. Its not because of luck, its just that everything out paces space marines.
Guardsmen can kill space marines in droves. In Droves.
They need help in all regards to their weaponry.
It's more that Guardsmen need to be nerfed in their ridiculous cost-effectiveness. 4 points is ridiculous for a T3 5+ wound that can poop out 4 BS4+ shots in rapid-fire range with orders. Every marine would practically need to come with a free Heavy Bolter to compare at their cost.
If you're factoring Orders into that equation, we are no longer talking about 4ppm models, as those Orders have to come from Officers who also have a cost.
True, but you're going to need HQs anyway, so might as well count them in. Marines need to field a captain/lieutenant/libby/whatevz as well, so that equals out.
Pandabeer wrote: True, but you're going to need HQs anyway, so might as well count them in. Marines need to field a captain/lieutenant/libby/whatevz as well, so that equals out.
It's fair enough to include the bonuses but you have to include the points, particularly when the buffing unit contributes nothing else to the army beyond the buff.
A platoon or company commander makes a squad of 10 'rapid fire 2' guardsmen effectively 60 points (or 55 if they are deployed in pairs).
Pandabeer wrote: True, but you're going to need HQs anyway, so might as well count them in. Marines need to field a captain/lieutenant/libby/whatevz as well, so that equals out.
It's fair enough to include the bonuses but you have to include the points, particularly when the buffing unit contributes nothing else to the army beyond the buff.
A platoon or company commander makes a squad of 10 'rapid fire 2' guardsmen effectively 60 points (or 55 if they are deployed in pairs).
I don't think you can blanketly say either you must include the points or you must not when doing analysis. It all depends on the context of what you are trying to show in that specific instance.
Set some clear parameters for what is being compared and then it should follow from that whether to include it.
buddha wrote: If you juice them with FW units space marines are okay. Sicaran variants, deredeos, quad mortars, etc. add the missing pieces need I think for many space marine lists. Pure codex outside of 1 or two builds, not really. They are just designed poorly for 8th. There are a hundred threads on how to fix marines so look at your leisure but I also wanted to note just using space marines isn't an auto-lose either.
Or you throw in a Levithian Dread and watch everything die.
Has FW ever explained why it removed all the marine options from being available to GK? I get why they didn't give new primaris stuff to GK, but why did they remove FW units, often ones people already bought .
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Pandabeer wrote: True, but you're going to need HQs anyway, so might as well count them in. Marines need to field a captain/lieutenant/libby/whatevz as well, so that equals out.
It's fair enough to include the bonuses but you have to include the points, particularly when the buffing unit contributes nothing else to the army beyond the buff.
A platoon or company commander makes a squad of 10 'rapid fire 2' guardsmen effectively 60 points (or 55 if they are deployed in pairs).
55 is about right; I couldn't justify adding more than a quarter of the price of the Captain to SMs if I were including the standard buffs on both sides since you want to maximize the aura but getting more than four units under that aura gets hard to do without blocking your own LoS...but to include standard buffs you kinda also need to add a quarter of a Lieutenant as well and now your basic space marine costs 20 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 14:00:33
The Newman wrote: ...but to include standard buffs you kinda also need to add a quarter of a Lieutenant as well and now your basic space marine costs 20 points.
Best to calc with and without - buffs are not always a net gain, nor suitable for some units.
Of course the cost of a buffer gets more vague as the unit carrying it gains in power. Something like a platoon commander or imagifier is almost all buff while at the other end much of the bigger hero-type models points are tied up in their own direct impact on the game.
You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
This is a problem though. The game should reflect the background as much as is practical. I'm fine with both allies being a thing and some factions needing them. Space Marines should not be one of those factions. If I need three books to make a force viable from the most fleshed out faction in the game, something is very wrong.
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
This is a problem though. The game should reflect the background as much as is practical. I'm fine with both allies being a thing and some factions needing them. Space Marines should not be one of those factions. If I need three books to make a force viable from the most fleshed out faction in the game, something is very wrong.
I think you're conflating being fleshed out with being really good at "all the things". There are plenty of opportunities for fixes and such still.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 17:21:26
Asherian Command wrote: I have lost every game with space marines at my store. Its not because of luck, its just that everything out paces space marines.
Guardsmen can kill space marines in droves. In Droves.
They need help in all regards to their weaponry.
Can we see a typical list of yours and an idea of what your opponents run? I am curious to see what you're running that Guardsmen are killing 'in droves' and that you've managed to lose every game with. Cause even at Socal open, plenty of mono or near mono SM lists were able to get 3-3 or better.
I usually try to do a mono marine army:
1 Captain with Stormshield (Shield Eternal) with thunder hammer, jump pack
2 Librarians
2 Intercessor Squads
4 Scout Squads
2 Inceptors (All bolters)
1 bike squad or Assault Squad
1 Aggressor Squad
1 Apothecary or a Venerable Dread
2 sternguard (5 man each) or 2 vanguard units (depending)
Depending upon the opponent I switch up the army to include razorbacks or a smash captain or use blood angel rules and take an entire squad of death company.
For Knights I take as many razorbacks as possible with a potential predator squad (replacing bolters and missile launcher).
Inceptors are used for area denial against hordes, while aggressors hold positions, Intercessors are defenders, while sternguard take out the major of MEQ or Plague forces.
Obviously space marines lack ways to adequately deal with Knight titans as grav weaponry is overcosted for what it does.
Terminators are too expensive and die to literally everything for their points cost.
If I am not running a marine mono army (which never wins). I run an imperial soup list with three shield captains on bikes with auric shackles and two squads of intercessors and a smash captain.
Not a single rhino or razerback, no wonder your men are dying in droves.
My point was that I don't like the idea of having to take units from three different chapters to sell the idea that marines are competitive. That just feels gamey to me but I know these days soup is all the rage and GW seems to be balancing things more around the 40k equivalent of grand alliances than distinct factions.
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
It's not just that it's not fluffy. It feels like an exploit and is just a further example that marines should just be 1 book.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
It's not just that it's not fluffy. It feels like an exploit and is just a further example that marines should just be 1 book.
I'm not sure how you do that effectively, but it's not a bad idea.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
It's not just that it's not fluffy. It feels like an exploit and is just a further example that marines should just be 1 book.
Even in one book, I'd still feel dirty about cherry picking units from a bunch of different chapters to make a functional list.
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
It's not just that it's not fluffy. It feels like an exploit and is just a further example that marines should just be 1 book.
Even in one book, I'd still feel dirty about cherry picking units from a bunch of different chapters to make a functional list.
Consolidating the Angel chapters into the vanilla codex and giving everyone only a few unique units makes them far easier to balance though, internally and externally.
Hell, I'd be for consolidating Space Wolves if they didn't have so many blasted odd entries. Although it might work...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
It's not just that it's not fluffy. It feels like an exploit and is just a further example that marines should just be 1 book.
Even in one book, I'd still feel dirty about cherry picking units from a bunch of different chapters to make a functional list.
Well - why do we feel that way about marines but not feel like that when doing it with IG or tyranids or whatnot? Really - it's because we have different books. It makes us think - that is a separate army. The reality is - its the same army with a different chapter tactic and a few special units.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Marmatag wrote: You guys are totally off, to compete in the meta you need to do more than kill Guardsmen.
Marines can effectively slaughter a lot of things that pose a real challenge in the meta. Especially if you bring a kill team with poisoned ammo. Or, if you bring a librarian command with Wolves & Dark Angels.
You have to pull from different chapters and books. I get that this might not be the fluffy way to play the game, but there are clear paths to victory. If you don't want to take them that's on you.
It's not just that it's not fluffy. It feels like an exploit and is just a further example that marines should just be 1 book.
Even in one book, I'd still feel dirty about cherry picking units from a bunch of different chapters to make a functional list.
Well - why do we feel that way about marines but not feel like that when doing it with IG or tyranids or whatnot? Really - it's because we have different books. It makes us think - that is a separate army. The reality is - its the same army with a different chapter tactic and a few special units.
I feel weird taking different Hive Fleets in the same army, for what it's worth.
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