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The adeptus mechanicus tactica thread has devolved into a discussion about whether graia dogma counts as an fnp for the purpose of the abilities which ignore wounds rule. I felt this more appropriately belonged over here in ymdc.

ABILITIES WHICH IGNORE WOUNDS
Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore damage suffered, and it is possible for some units to gain more than
one such ability. These abilities have stacked in an unintended way, and as a result we have changed their interaction
such that if a model has more than one such ability you will now only be able to use one of them against each lost
wound

Refusal to yield
Roll a d6 whenever a model with this dogma is slain or flees. On a 6, that model refuses to yield and either the wound that slew it is ignored or does not flee.

Now I myself hold that it is because it ignores wounds but others disagree because it triggers on slain not on the W.

The question becomes relevant with how it interacts with the electropriests whose built in fnp triggers on being W rather than slain. Do you get a choice/do they stack/do you have to apply the W fnp first and so are unable to apply the dogma at slain.

It looks like this dogma triggers on death ( an ad mech reanimation type situation) so after any FNP type roll has not been successful. So its not quite the same from my interpretation. However, I suspect its more poorly written than set up to be be a mini reanimation

Graia's refusal to yield triggers when the model would be slain which is after all saves and fnp equivalents would have been taken, the wording has been changed slightly in the FAQ so it no longer says ignores wounds

Page 95 – Graia: Refusal to Yield
Change the first sentence of rules text to read:
‘Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain
or flees – on a 6 that model refuses to yield; either that
model is not slain (and has 1 wound remaining), or that
model does not flee.’

Followed swiftly by "there is no such thing called FNP in 8th ed."

The ability to trigger RtY would arise after you failed your what we colloquially refer to as FNP if the model comes with it. Common phrasing for FNP reads "...on a roll of X, the wound is not lost" or any similar versions of that phrase. The key is they share the concept of "wound not being lost" as opposed to "wound being saved," in which case, RtY doesn't have such phrasing f9r description of its mechanics, so it would not count as a FNP equivalent ability IMO.

The wording is as clear as day if you ask me.

"When a model is slain or flees" is the trigger, not when a model takes a wound or receives damage or makes a save or anything other than it being killed or running away.

It's actually really really good against high damage weapons because if you have a w1 model that is wounded for 3 dmg, the first wound save you fail the model is considered slain, which means all the surplus damage is then gone (unless the damage was mortal) so if you pass your RtY save you don't have to then make saves against all the other damage like you would with disgustingly resilient or similar feel no pain-like abilities.

I think an email to GW is the best response here. This could clearly be read both ways. Both abilities are preventing wounds from being lost, but are preventing that loss at a slightly different time. The rule from GW is "such ability", which is asking us to just apply this when things are similar. These two abilities ARE similar, but are the similar enough? An email to GW asking for clarification in the next FAQ is the only way to know for sure.

For the time being, come to an agreement with your local meta. If an agreement cannot be reached, offer to "Hand of Fate" it at the start of each game (have players roll off to see who gets to choose the interpretation). If I was in your local meta, considering that Ad Mech is generally seen as a weaker faction, and because the rule is looking at "slain or flee" and not "wound lost", I'd go with you being able to get both rolls. However, I think GW's intention here is that you only get the 1 roll.

That's not the intention. It's worded on purpose to be granted after the model dies. Ergo it isn't FNP

 Yarium wrote:
I think an email to GW is the best response here. This could clearly be read both ways. Both abilities are preventing wounds from being lost, but are preventing that loss at a slightly different time. The rule from GW is "such ability", which is asking us to just apply this when things are similar. These two abilities ARE similar, but are the similar enough? An email to GW asking for clarification in the next FAQ is the only way to know for sure.

For the time being, come to an agreement with your local meta. If an agreement cannot be reached, offer to "Hand of Fate" it at the start of each game (have players roll off to see who gets to choose the interpretation). If I was in your local meta, considering that Ad Mech is generally seen as a weaker faction, and because the rule is looking at "slain or flee" and not "wound lost", I'd go with you being able to get both rolls. However, I think GW's intention here is that you only get the 1 roll.

i don't think it can be interpreted your way because of the strict wording of the the rulebook faq triggering on loosing wounds

says Page 181 – Ignoring Wounds
Add the following as a boxout on this page:
‘Ignoring Wounds
Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore
the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g.
Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious
Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you
can only use one of those abilities each time the model
loses a wound.’

the wording for each time losing its wounds is paramount which is completely different to a model being slain
e.g. you can use Graia vs an overcharged plasma to not be slain, where as a FNP style ability would not be eligible (yes i know electropriest cant shoot plasma)

I hadn't realised the wording had been faq'd

‘Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain
or flees – on a 6 that model refuses to yield; either that
model is not slain (and has 1 wound remaining), or that
model does not flee.’

Clearly ignored Wounds so is an fnp

The updated wording

Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain
or flees – on a 6 that model refuses to yield; either that
model is not slain (and has 1 wound remaining), or that
model does not flee.’

Still leaves a grey patch because by leaving a model on 1W you are effectively ignoreing a W

The trigger is completely irrelevant only ? is does the W/damage get ignored and it kind of does but I get that its not clear and probably needs an faq or a TO ruling before an event.

U02dah4 wrote:
I hadn't realised the wording had been faq'd

‘Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain
or flees – on a 6 that model refuses to yield; either that
model is not slain (and has 1 wound remaining), or that
model does not flee.’

Clearly ignored Wounds so is an fnp

The updated wording

Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain
or flees – on a 6 that model refuses to yield; either that
model is not slain (and has 1 wound remaining), or that
model does not flee.’

Still leaves a grey patch because by leaving a model on 1W you are effectively ignoreing a W

The trigger is completely irrelevant only ? is does the W/damage get ignored and it kind of does but I get that its not clear and probably needs an faq or a TO ruling before an event.

Effectively ignoring a wound is completely different to actually ignoring a wound using an ability, which can only happen once. I think you are confused with the ability triggering only when slain not for each wound taken. Lets say for instance a 5 wound model takes a hit from a 100 damage weapon, for Graia you would roll 1 die and if its a 6 the model would remain with 1 wound (no wounds ignored, model not slain), if they have a FNP ability such as elcetro priests they would roll 100 dice and for each roll of 5+ would ignore a wound (wounds ignored, potential model still slain). Another case i pointed out earlier with overcharged plasma rolling 1- and the model being slain, you can still roll a 6+ for the Graia and not be slain, but can not take FNP style rolls since the model does not loose any wounds, it is just considered slain

It is not an Ignore Wounds ability. It's that simple.

U02dah4 wrote:
Still leaves a grey patch because by leaving a model on 1W you are effectively ignoreing a W

W being set to 1 is distinctively different than wounds not being lost.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It is not an Ignore Wounds ability. It's that simple.

Agreed.

 skchsan wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Still leaves a grey patch because by leaving a model on 1W you are effectively ignoreing a W

W being set to 1 is distinctively different than wounds not being lost.

I mean it's a ridiculous grey area to raise. Are necron re-animation protocols to be classed as fnp because when a unit is brought back it has wounds remaining?

if the model isn't slain how would it be left with anything but 'some' wounds. it certainly cant be left with no wounds at all.

Octovol wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Still leaves a grey patch because by leaving a model on 1W you are effectively ignoreing a W

W being set to 1 is distinctively different than wounds not being lost.

I mean it's a ridiculous grey area to raise. Are necron re-animation protocols to be classed as fnp because when a unit is brought back it has wounds remaining?

if the model isn't slain how would it be left with anything but 'some' wounds. it certainly cant be left with no wounds at all.

"Slain and removed from play" is a distinct mechanic that occurs once wound=0. FNP is a mechanism that attempts tp prevent W reaching zero. RtY is a mechanic that sets W to 1 once W=0. If anything, its more akin to healing type abilities than a FNP.

Not grey.

Fair enough