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The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.

Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.

I see what you did there.

The indices need to go. Too much wonky legacy crap.

I have enough non-marine models now thanks to 8th, that I wouldn't really give a crap about that, either.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.

Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.

Yes, IG should be the main Imperial focus.
I'm not entirely serious.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.

Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.

Yes, IG should be the main Imperial focus.
I'm not entirely serious.

They already are.

Martel732 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.

Or they could just ban all the marine armies from the matched play. That instantly about halves the amount of units they need to balance, and marines are trash anyway so no proper competitive player uses them anyway.

Yes, IG should be the main Imperial focus.
I'm not entirely serious.

They already are.

I don't see IG everywhere on GW's marketing.
IG are probably going to be nerfed anyway in CA.

I didn't say the focus was intentional.

Martel732 wrote:
I see what you did there.

The indices need to go. Too much wonky legacy crap.

If the choice is between more options with worse balance or less options with better balance, I would definitely choose the former.

Latter all day, every day.

BA will lose honor guard, but they're useless anyway. One less thing to complain about.

Martel732 wrote:
Latter all day, every day.

Play Chess. Or possibly Checkers, it has even better unit balance than Chess.

False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.

Why are indices so important to you?

I think they will eventually introduce a "beta rule" banning index units, but only if all units have received a placing in a codex. In the end it will be unprofitable for them to hold onto the index as people will only need an entry or two and they will most likely photocopy them.

This will probably be hastened if people manage to exploit an index unit.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I see what you did there.

The indices need to go. Too much wonky legacy crap.

If the choice is between more options with worse balance or less options with better balance, I would definitely choose the former.

Same, I really don't want to see them delete options. Its not terribly hard to tone down list builds to make more units work. It will be much harder to house rule dozen of units back into existence.

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs fewer choices as it is to facilitate balancing. I'd trashcan the indices and probably FW at this point for matched play.

You know Martel, is very difficult to take your rants about marines seriously while you show this lack of empathy for other people (adjusted to tabletop gaming of course, I mean in a trivial matter anyway).
In these days, people are taking badly some choice of the new Ork codex, because models considered basic like the Megarmoured Warboss orthe Non-MA Big Mek with KFF did not make it.
I am fairly sure Ork players could make good use of few units that intuitively should exist, and this would not affect balance.

Here's the thing - its only removing options in the short term. I'm very sure GW will bring us new options (models) and might even bring some of the legacy models back into production with new sculpts.

Removing the index levels the playing field for old and new gamers and means that we know what to expect in games. In the short term it means less options (variable impact on some armies) however in the long term we should end up with a game with tighter, better rules; plus new sculpts and models in the future

Martel732 wrote:
False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.

Why are indices so important to you?

There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.

Simple. I've basically given up on marines and no longer care. GW can't handle the number of factions they currently have, much less legacy support for a bunch of 15 year old options.

Dakka is a wonderful place to develop a complete lack of empathy, btw. The indices need to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.

Why are indices so important to you?

There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.

Codex drukhari told me I cant use 90% of my collection. Spare me the "people have models" argument.

So because your army was handled terribly, everyone's army should? Stellar logic, mate!

Martel732 wrote:
Simple. I've basically given up on marines and no longer care. GW can't handle the number of factions they currently have, much less legacy support for a bunch of 15 year old options.

Dakka is a wonderful place to develop a complete lack of empathy, btw. The indices need to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.

Why are indices so important to you?

There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.

Codex drukhari told me I cant use 90% of my collection. Spare me the "people have models" argument.

90%? How is that even possible?

 Crimson wrote:
So because your army was handled terribly, everyone's army should? Stellar logic, mate!

I think it would help considerably in the long run. GW should probably cut back to 200 units total and go from there. That's not happening, so the indices seem a good place to cut.

It's not my army anymore. I play ig soup usually now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So because your army was handled terribly, everyone's army should? Stellar logic, mate!

I think it would help considerably in the long run. GW should probably cut back to 200 units total and go from there. That's not happening, so the indices seem a good place to cut.

200 units total? You do realize you would have to delete entire factions to get down to that level, and not just the smaller sub factions. Your essentially stating that GW should trash 1000s of mini's.

Yup. It's their own fault in my view. Math fail after math fail for 25 years.

I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.

As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Simple. I've basically given up on marines and no longer care. GW can't handle the number of factions they currently have, much less legacy support for a bunch of 15 year old options.

Dakka is a wonderful place to develop a complete lack of empathy, btw. The indices need to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
False dilemma. We can have fewer units than current 40k and more than chess.

Why are indices so important to you?

There are cool units like Rough Riders, there are all sorts of little weapon options that allow giving some flavour to characters. And of course a lot of people have models for this stuff, they should be allowed to use them. And it is not only that, more options is just inherently a good thing, encouraging conversion and kitbashing is good.

Codex drukhari told me I cant use 90% of my collection. Spare me the "people have models" argument.

90%? How is that even possible?

Hes saying 90% of his codex is unplayable when armies like drukari exist. It's true.

Tyel wrote:
I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.

As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.

What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Martel732 wrote:
Yup. It's their own fault in my view. Math fail after math fail for 25 years.

Ok I get the marine hate but 90% of a dark eldar army being useless borders on comical considering it's one of the strongest factions this edition. That book has maybe two or three truly bad units.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.

I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.

As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.

What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.

Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.

Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.

Tyel wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.

I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.

You say that, and yet I can use my necron warriors just fine. They're even older than my mek.
Its almost as if computer hardware and expendable goods such as tickets aren't like models.

Options like FW autocannon arms for dreads should never have been removed from the codex. It's not even a "no model" issue and those damned arms were not cheap (although they never see the table anyways because dreads are over-priced pieces of junk).

I have no idea what GW was thinking or what they are going to do. It wasn't a balance decision to do it but it has created a records keeping/balance mess and like other posters have stated they've painted themselves into a bit of a corner. Although once they squat marines for primaris they might as well just squat everything else they don't make enough money on and just deal with one massive "REEEEE!!!" instead of death by a thousand tears...