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I think GW was very smart to leave it open for the player to decide. The Designers Note chart for using Index-only options leaves the door open. Having those options use Codex points if available if possible is also very smart as it provided some measure to be able to update options.

Eventually the community will have far, far more players that stick to their Codex and may not even be aware of "indexes", but by that point, 40K will likely be on 9th or 10th edition when everything will have changed for everyone, so it won't matter.

If YOU don't want to use the Index....don't. But assuming other players should not is like assuming everyone play from a single codex and not use allies. It ain't gonna happen.
If the issue is that there are just too many rules....I agree, but it's better than having too few.

I long ago gave up on my quest to know every rule in every Codex in 40K. There are just too many Codices and with how quickly they have been released lately, it's difficult to know keep up. Removing all Index options would hardly make a dent in plethora of existing rules, so why bother?
At best, GW will stop producing them (already started this) and just quietly ignore the Indexes exist, but they will leave the Designers Note available for players who have them.
At that point, as now, it will be up to the players and TOs to enforce "Codex Only" stuff. But unless an option starts dominating the Tourney scene, I don't see this happening either

-

I don’t see why it’s a big deal that people want to use bike Captains and Autarch weapons.

I do, but I'll be banned if I outline it.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I do, but I'll be banned if I outline it.

Tease lol, now I'm curious. Over all though there really isn't a legit reason to do a mass purge of older models. Just because older players have stuff that newer players may not due to time is kinda baked in miniature war gaming.

Martel732 wrote:
Their inability to do math is the limiting factor.

I'm talking about marines, which has the most useless entries and kits.

Too many false choices in the game.

That's an issue with the Marine codices not being consolidated correctly. That's got nothing to do with the index.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I do, but I'll be banned if I outline it.

Tease lol, now I'm curious. Over all though there really isn't a legit reason to do a mass purge of older models. Just because older players have stuff that newer players may not due to time is kinda baked in miniature war gaming.

That said, how do I field my Squats?

And let's not start on Sigmar, where a huge number of old kits have no obvious analogue.

Basically, there's no rule at GW saying an old, no longer available unit has to stay in the game forever. It's kind of weird that so many 40k ones still are usable really...

GW learned at least a partial leason from Sigmar, which was a dumpster fire when it first came out and took a while to pick up again after a lot of tweaking. It's why I believe even if older models do get squatted at some point we are looking at them not doing it for about a decade or so. They don't need the back PR after working pretty hard to win back the community.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
GW learned at least a partial leason from Sigmar, which was a dumpster fire when it first came out and took a while to pick up again after a lot of tweaking. It's why I believe even if older models do get squatted at some point we are looking at them not doing it for about a decade or so. They don't need the back PR after working pretty hard to win back the community.

I can agree with that.

But that's why biker librarians and their ilk are likely on the chopping block. They're old enough that not enough people would care.

The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

Hmm. That makes sense to a point.

Bloat is a real issue though. Maybe not to those of us that spend all our time on forums for the game, but for the more casual player.

 Overread wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.

As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.

What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.

Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.

Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.

ok if your going to use the mtg term, you have a format called "modern" that you should be well aware of.( for you who dont play mtg; modern allows you to use any card produced from 2008 until today whit the exeptions of some clearly op cards, and there are official competitions/turnys in modern, as it is fully supported(heck you even have legacy for the early gen mtg cards))
that is proper game support!


for the whole debacle about fantasy, it was a dead and overcomplicated game that dident have a chanse in 2015 when you saw more and more new games whit mutch simpler rules set gaining more popularity. if your going to completely kill a game like they did to fantasy, there is no reason to keep its models.
40k 8th edition was was not an elimination of a game, it was a simplification of a very unessesary complex game system, and in that prosess apparently something had to go.

and since this prossess is ongoing and still fresh and moust likely will still be ongoing in 9th, i expect index units/selections to be fully supported in matched play for atleast another edition.
(heck, some of us builds themed armys, but still want to play fully structured)

 Stux wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

Hmm. That makes sense to a point.

Bloat is a real issue though. Maybe not to those of us that spend all our time on forums for the game, but for the more casual player.

Does this all go back to chapter house though and GW learning that to win they had to be able to point to any given entry and say here is the model we make for that entry.

Someone already posted a link to a screen grab of the notice of index xeno going out of print

Martel732 wrote:

Why are indices so important to you?

Because without them every single one of my razorbacks (las/plas turrets) can't be used as such.
Because without them I've got a lot of useless horse mounted IG.
And I'm sure there's more models in my collection that only appear in the indices.
Yeah, I want to keep playing with my existing toys.

Because I support having more options in the game. Always have, always will. For myself, for you, for people who already have stuff, for new/newer players.

The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.
The discontinued models? It's almost 2019. 3d printing is a thing. They could simply sell you a file good for printing x # of copies. Or process your bitz order through Shapeways or some other 3d printing company.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.

Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...


It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.

GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time

*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.

 Overread wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.

Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...


It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.

GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time

*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.

Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.

I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

Well, it's actually much dumber than even that.

GW sell all the parts to make a Herald of Slaanesh on a Seeker Chariot and on an Exalted Seeker Chariot in one box, but they still killed the rules for them.

So if I don't have an Index I can only field six Seeker Chariots, or with an Index I can field twelve and spend literally twice as much at GW.

meleti wrote:
But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.

But that is decreasing, and those conversion options are likely to disappear. GW's goal is that every kit (including terrain and things that would normally just be decorative) can be built straight out of the box and have rules, and every rule has a matching kit you can buy. Conversions are intimidating for the new players GW wants to recruit. They might produce multi-kit purchases by more experienced players, but GW doesn't get to the point of having experienced players if the newbies are scared off by a game where buying a viable configuration for a unit means buying multiple kits and/or going to third-party bits sellers. In short, GW wants a theme park and not a sandbox.

 Peregrine wrote:

meleti wrote:
But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.

But that is decreasing, and those conversion options are likely to disappear. GW's goal is that every kit (including terrain and things that would normally just be decorative) can be built straight out of the box and have rules, and every rule has a matching kit you can buy. Conversions are intimidating for the new players GW wants to recruit. They might produce multi-kit purchases by more experienced players, but GW doesn't get to the point of having experienced players if the newbies are scared off by a game where buying a viable configuration for a unit means buying multiple kits and/or going to third-party bits sellers. In short, GW wants a theme park and not a sandbox.

So why don't Plague Marines (a fairly new kit) come with all their weapon options then? They've mostly got one of each option but can take two.

 Overread wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.

Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...


It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.

GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time

*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.

Which makes sense because the only non-single kit I know of that made into codex are talonmasters and characters with jump packs because GW sells jump packs and ravenwing upgrade sprue seperately.

meleti wrote:

 Overread wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.

Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...


It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.

GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time

*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.

Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.

I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.

The really strange part is that the Biker Captain STILL has a kit (albeit only as White Scars) and he's still only Index option.

I wouldnt be surprised if Indexes continue, but as Open Play type suggestions. How else are we supposed to buy more books once the Codexes are all completed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Overread wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.

Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...


It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.

GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time

*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.

Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.

I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.

The really strange part is that the Biker Captain STILL has a kit (albeit only as White Scars) and he's still only Index option.

Captain on bike entry is page 141 of the Codex.

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Why are indices so important to you?

Because without them every single one of my razorbacks (las/plas turrets) can't be used as such.
Because without them I've got a lot of useless horse mounted IG.
And I'm sure there's more models in my collection that only appear in the indices.
Yeah, I want to keep playing with my existing toys.

Because I support having more options in the game. Always have, always will. For myself, for you, for people who already have stuff, for new/newer players.

The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.
The discontinued models? It's almost 2019. 3d printing is a thing. They could simply sell you a file good for printing x # of copies. Or process your bitz order through Shapeways or some other 3d printing company.

I second this. Without the Index options, my Autarch has very few options. It was always the point of an Autarch to have a customizable general. But since GW cannot be arsed to release a multi-part plastic kit with options, they decided to just remove them. But the options are still there on other kits, namely Aspect warriors.
It makes no sense to just remove the options wholesale.

But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.
It's a win-win for GW and the players.
I'm sorry if my Autarch with Banshee Mask and Reaper Launcher offends any one, but without those options, he'd be another Farseer instead.

-

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if Indexes continue, but as Open Play type suggestions. How else are we supposed to buy more books once the Codexes are all completed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Overread wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.

The thing is not everyone converts their models. Some don't want to, some don't know how, others don't even know you can do it.
The point is that current GW wants to have a game whereby everything in the codex can be bought direct from GW. No converting, no sourcing parts on ebay, no scrounging around for3rd party bits etc... This makes it fair for all gamers as they are all on the same potential playing field.

Furthermore for GW it means that people are not rebuying kits on ebay and are instead more likely to be buying the new kits. Remember most people don't buy an expensive Librarian just to chop half of it up and attach to another expensive bike. Sure some fans do it and many do it when they build up a collection of spare bits etc...


It makes sense for GW and it makes sense for new gamers. GW is focusing big time on newblood. They realise that old-guard are great, but old fans get lost to time, life and general stuff. So GW needs to ensure that new kids are joining into the game and getting on board. An experienced gamer has no problem being aware of several generations of the game*; nor of referencing several books etc... New gamers very easily get put off and not its not "these young kids today". Back in the day we still had that 1 codex for each army and maybe one or two things in white dwarf as optional stuff.

GW has to tackle its past at some point otherwise keeping every legacy model around would bloat the game on things that are not there any more. Plus nothing stops GW making a new librarian on a bike in 2 years time

*I was reading the Infinity 1 reprint (of the original series) and it describes generation 1 Screamer Killers and Hormagaunts with long heads. Two things new gamers would get confused at as neither is like what they look like today.

Many armies have to rely on conversions and bits, though. Few units come with all the weapon options and combinations they can take. Some units, like Space Marine Captains, barely have anything in terms of official kit options. There’s not even a Wolf Priest model beyond a named character. The entire Tau range includes a single Cyclic Ion Blaster, in the Commander kit, but a Commander can take four of them and a minimum Crisis team can take 9.

I agree that Primaris and Easy Build are an attempt to simplify the building process by removing most unit options, and that’s fine. But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.

The really strange part is that the Biker Captain STILL has a kit (albeit only as White Scars) and he's still only Index option.

Captain on bike entry is page 141 of the Codex.

I was just looking at the codex like a few hours ago. Are you sure?

Space Wolves don't get a Lord on Bike in the codex, fwiw.

Yep. Im looking at it right now. Pg 140 is Captain Cataphractii, and regular captain, 141 is Captain on bike, right above the Primaris Captain entry. Starting points 98. No other Bike character entries though.

I'm surprised as well. I just sold off all my Bikes and bike Characters a few weeks ago. Might have held onto one or two had I even noticed.

People are meaning Bike Librarian, not Capt.

 Galef wrote:
People are meaning Bike Librarian, not Capt.

Not in the last few posts, they're definitely talking about the captain and how people assumed he wasn't codex when he infact is.

I also like that a normal captain can take a bike in the codex but Khan can only take a bike in the index. The White Scar special character potentially loses the ability to take a bike. The choices they choose to cut lead to some silly outcomes.

The Bike Captain equivalent isn't present in the Space Wolves codex (Wolf Lord on Bike). Regardless, it's a datasheel without a miniature unless you want to argue that White Scar is intended for generic Chapter use.

The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.

If they weren't going to be included in the rulebook, they always should have been offered as PDFs.

 Galef wrote:
But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.

Wouldn't a better compromise have been to just, you know, keep selling those models...?

Removing options from the game always sucks. Removing options when you still have the capability to produce those options, but are removing them for no reason other than that someone thought it would be a good idea to just drop everything that wasn't plastic rather than carrying out a structured replacement, is just rude.