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CthuluIsSpy wrote: What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
My 15 year old house must not be worth much use either. Or a 15 year old car, regularly maintained. My Mom get's regular use out of a 15 year old TV. Sorry, most stuff isn't bought to become obsolete or consumed.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.
As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.
Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.
Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.
Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.
One of the selling points for Warhammer over magic is that it didn't do that.
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Martel732 wrote: In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.
That is not a fact. That's an opinion. My opinion is that it's the opposite.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is a good example of why there stance is kinda silly and arbitrary. GW produces librarian models and produces bikes. Do they sell that in one kit, no I need to buy at least two to make a convincing one. But that makes GW money and keeping rules for it doesn't cost anything. I can get shuttering things they outright have no current model for but something like the above is just dumb.
Hmm. That makes sense to a point.
Bloat is a real issue though. Maybe not to those of us that spend all our time on forums for the game, but for the more casual player.
That's not even that big a deal. Just include a line under librarian that says "Space Marine Bike: +1PL Model gains +1T, +1W and movement become 12"" Include any appropriate keyword changes, and good to go.
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
It's true. When I put my 15-year old DVDs into the DVD player now, I get a message saying 'Sorry, you can't watch this one anymore, just because.'
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
It's true. When I put my 15-year old DVDs into the DVD player now, I get a message saying 'Sorry, you can't watch this one anymore, just because.'
What, you sold the VCR? (I still have my Star Wars VHS tapes, but no VCR, oddly enough).
Anyway, doesn't Age of Sigmar have a site where they are posting PDFs of old hero units? If they are going to drop models from 40K, it would be nice if they had a repository of one-page PDFs for those old 40K units with their last datasheet somewhere where they can be accessed for the casual/open play crowd.
(Actually, I wish they did datasheets for the 40K units like they do for the AoS units, where you could just download them off the model's page)
I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.
It's true. When I put my 15-year old DVDs into the DVD player now, I get a message saying 'Sorry, you can't watch this one anymore, just because.'
What, you sold the VCR? (I still have my Star Wars VHS tapes, but no VCR, oddly enough).
Anyway, doesn't Age of Sigmar have a site where they are posting PDFs of old hero units? If they are going to drop models from 40K, it would be nice if they had a repository of one-page PDFs for those old 40K units with their last datasheet somewhere where they can be accessed for the casual/open play crowd.
(Actually, I wish they did datasheets for the 40K units like they do for the AoS units, where you could just download them off the model's page)
Yes they do, it's on the app. They have downloads for all the legacy armies and Forge World books with updated points for older units not carried over and substitute war scrolls for anything that has carried over to AoS. So you can just use those as an equivalent in the older army types.
Galef wrote: But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.
Wouldn't a better compromise have been to just, you know, keep selling those models...?
Removing options from the game always sucks. Removing options when you still have the capability to produce those options, but are removing them for no reason other than that someone thought it would be a good idea to just drop everything that wasn't plastic rather than carrying out a structured replacement, is just rude.
Oh, for sure keeping the models in stock would be ideal, but I was under the impression that most (not all) of the options removed were options GW either never made or haven't for years.
I don't ever remember GW releasing a Librarian on a bike, or Twin-Autocannons for a Dread (FW doesn't count) or many of the Autarch options (certain cobmos had models up til recently, but never a specific kit with all the options).
So I though GW was just removing options to thing they no longer or have never produced, but had the rules options for in prior editions that players just converted.
So by removing them in the Codex, it doesn't confuse new players, but by leaving the option available via Index, older players can still take their models as they converted them.
I can only see good intentions in this.
Most entries removed have been kits that never had specific models to begin with. There are of course few exception and those exceptions are usually old metal/resin models.
2018/11/01 14:46:50
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
My age as a hobbyist is probably showing but it makes me laugh that the idea of a unit entry or an option not having a specific one click buy model as confusing to a new player. When I started playing so many options and units didn't have an official model, or you would have to kit bash to get the load out you wanted.
That led to interesting models as people put their own spin on things. Increasingly I've seen that die out when I've ventured to local stores and newer players are playing identical models against identical models. So much flavor is being lost as GW doubles down after chapter house.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 14:48:04
2018/11/01 14:56:28
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
HoundsofDemos wrote: My age as a hobbyist is probably showing but it makes me laugh that the idea of a unit entry or an option not having a specific one click buy model as confusing to a new player. When I started playing so many options and units didn't have an official model, or you would have to kit bash to get the load out you wanted.
That led to interesting models as people put their own spin on things. Increasingly I've seen that die out when I've ventured to local stores and newer players are playing identical models against identical models. So much flavor is being lost as GW doubles down after chapter house.
Yeah, it is really sad. Conversions are the heart and soul of this hobby.
I personally hope they keep them legal if for no other reason than having long-standing formerly legal options from multiple editions (and their corresponding models) be able to still be used.
Case-in-point, a jump pack equipped Sanguinary High Priest and Sanguinary Novitiate, as well as a jump pack equipped Company Champion. I have these models, and I want to keep using them, especially considering I used assault marine jump pack belt torsos in their construction several years ago.
Just my opinion on it. I hope they remain legal for folks. Just my .02 pennies.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.
In Europe, Index units are already banned from ETC, and therefore effectively banned from most competitive events.
Look to AoS to see how GW handles legacy units - a pdf of datasheets for open play only.
And this to me has the sinister undertone to GW getting back into organized play. It realizes if it can encourage the above behavior it can make more money by making current models illegal and force players to buy new ones.
2018/11/01 16:22:48
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
And this to me has the sinister undertone to GW getting back into organized play. It realizes if it can encourage the above behavior it can make more money by making current models illegal and force players to buy new ones.
What current models? I have a chaplain on a bike but he is far from current. Also, organized play requires parity between players. If one player can use a rare unit they bought 20 years ago and nobody else can unless they resort to recasters you are creating a very unbalanced battlefield(and enabling recasters) in the competitive circle.
To be fair they could do this in a much smarter way which would cause less backlash. Simply out price the unavailable models in Chapter Approved. Make Trueborns cost double. Make that Librarian on bike cost double and pay more for his upgrades. It would discourage their use in competitive circles but not really remove them. Basically what they've already done with Forgeworld.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 16:23:59
2018/11/01 16:29:21
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
And this to me has the sinister undertone to GW getting back into organized play. It realizes if it can encourage the above behavior it can make more money by making current models illegal and force players to buy new ones.
What current models? I have a chaplain on a bike but he is far from current. Also, organized play requires parity between players. If one player can use a rare unit they bought 20 years ago and nobody else can unless they resort to recasters you are creating a very unbalanced battlefield(and enabling recasters) in the competitive circle.
To be fair they could do this in a much smarter way which would cause less backlash. Simply out price the unavailable models in Chapter Approved. Make Trueborns cost double. Make that Librarian on bike cost double and pay more for his upgrades. It would discourage their use in competitive circles but not really remove them. Basically what they've already done with Forgeworld.
Which again gets back to the real reason their doing this, they don't make money from people who have old models. And again, it's a hobby you want a chaplain on a bike there is nothing stopping a new player from making one. GW sells all the needed parts. Pretty much everything in the Indexes that don't have an "Official Model" can be made with a bit of kit bashing and a little conversion work. A lot of units didn't have models back in the day but still had rules. Which meant players figured it out. Acting like new players can't do so is patronizing.
I think people are loosing there gak over nothing. Yeah index entries will eventually go away however GW likes to add new units from campaigns. I could see units like KFF mekboyz and ruff riders make legal comebacks in this form. We gotta givem more time...
The indices don't have to exist as dead tree books. They could be offered as reasonably priced PDFs.
If they weren't going to be included in the rulebook, they always should have been offered as PDFs.
Galef wrote: But I think GW hit the right compromise by releasing the Codices with only the options provided in the kits (mostly for new players) and leaving the Index options available not only for veteran players who already have them modeled, but for new players who have gotten a bit deeper in the hobby.
Wouldn't a better compromise have been to just, you know, keep selling those models...?
Removing options from the game always sucks. Removing options when you still have the capability to produce those options, but are removing them for no reason other than that someone thought it would be a good idea to just drop everything that wasn't plastic rather than carrying out a structured replacement, is just rude.
That's an excellent point, and if their logic is removing everything that isn't plastic, I guess all of the Eldar aspects should be killed off, along with half of the non Space Marine HQ units in the entire GW model range. There's still an absurd amount of models in failcast.
And that's precisely why I think Eldar are going to be Primaris-ized. I suspect instead of proper Eldar in plastic we'll end up with Ynnari nonsense as new types of units in plastic and Aspects will fade.
I'd like to think they're not dumb enough to do that - but I wouldn't put it beyond GW. They did just do a plastic Spiritseer which is hopeful.
2018/11/01 17:46:16
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
Which again gets back to the real reason their doing this, they don't make money from people who have old models. And again, it's a hobby you want a chaplain on a bike there is nothing stopping a new player from making one. GW sells all the needed parts. Pretty much everything in the Indexes that don't have an "Official Model" can be made with a bit of kit bashing and a little conversion work. A lot of units didn't have models back in the day but still had rules. Which meant players figured it out. Acting like new players can't do so is patronizing.
It is a different landscape and third party manufacturers ruined kitbashing of non-existent units because even though new players can kitbash stuff many do not want to and would rather buy some recast or third party model. GW quickly made sure Razorwing Flocks became expensive pointwise when people were "flocking"(pun intended) to buy the Zombicide models. Hell, I've been tempted by some amazing third party models of non-existing kits because some of the artists making them are quite frankly very good at their job. Saw a third party Baron Sathonyx that was bloody gorgeous and no amount of kitbashing could have come close to it.
I've gone through great cullings over the years and to be honest I am so jaded to people being angry at entries being removed because I've already gone through this with the Dark Eldar codex back in 7th. Hell, I even own the original Dais of Destruction model(sans the slaves though) and I can't even use it and that's just something I just live with. I can, however, urge them to remake the kit or ask them to give us a new Asdrubael Vect. I can also enjoy the old model even though I can't play it anymore(except maybe as a stand-in for something else).
Maybe I am just jaded because I already own armies in 40k and Fantasy that have already gone through a culling and know that no one did anything then and won't do anything now.
Maybe I am just getting too old for this life. Old, jaded, and staring out the window wondering where all this time has gone over the years. So many years wasted here and there. So many things lost because I didn't seize the day; carpe diem and all that. Seen my childhood heroes die, and others break their image beyond all repair. Spent too much energy being angry and disappointed when many other interesting things lay around the next corner.
Perhaps people are right. This is the darkest timeline.
Ah well. Better paint some Dark Angel Scouts.
2018/11/01 18:02:07
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
Personally, I don’t see some nefarious scheme for GW to invalidate people’s collections.
While it’s not the best example, Apple doesn’t make Apple IIe’s anymore. That doesn’t stop me from being able to use one if I had it, or from people making emulators for it. There may be enthusiasts who love the old hardware/software (I do), but the technology has long been abandoned and it isn’t in Apple’s interest to actively support it. As long as Apple doesn’t take actions to shut down the existing community or block people from being able to buy/trade/fix/emulate/develop for the old hardware, things are fine. If Apple were to step in and somehow actively make it difficult or impossible to get an Apple IIe or an emulation of it, then they’re being a spiteful, sucky company.
IMO, same holds for GW. If the old molds wear out, aren’t profitable or get redesigned, I have no issue with GW dropping future references to the model, and letting players use the old data sheets for casual play. It’s when they derp rename things or, heaven forbid, went out of their way to ban an existing, in-production model that they become the spiteful, sucky company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 21:07:17
It never ends well
2018/11/01 21:56:40
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
I bought my damned forgeworld dread auto cannon arms at the beginning of 8th based on the index. To have them removed as a valid armament within the same edition is just not fair and would leave me feeling bitter (thank god I'm not on the other side of the pond with the crazy ETC and their forgeworld hang-ups).
I played fantasy but quit before they blew the whole thing up but I still have a fair collection of savage orc boar boyz, Trolls, snotling wagons, the night goblins that launched themselves and the crazy ones with the giant metal balls, wood elf waywatchers, glade riders and some seriously old chaos demons, hounds and the terrible mono-pose chaos warriors so it wouldn't be the first time my hobby dollars turned into nothing because of the whims of GW but it would be the quickest it has happened...
2018/11/01 23:07:25
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
bananathug wrote: I bought my damned forgeworld dread auto cannon arms at the beginning of 8th based on the index. To have them removed as a valid armament within the same edition is just not fair and would leave me feeling bitter (thank god I'm not on the other side of the pond with the crazy ETC and their forgeworld hang-ups).
Good news? They're in the FW index.
2018/11/02 09:12:11
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
meleti wrote: But GW has always pushed people to convert and hopefully buy more kits while doing so.
But that is decreasing, and those conversion options are likely to disappear. GW's goal is that every kit (including terrain and things that would normally just be decorative) can be built straight out of the box and have rules, and every rule has a matching kit you can buy. Conversions are intimidating for the new players GW wants to recruit. They might produce multi-kit purchases by more experienced players, but GW doesn't get to the point of having experienced players if the newbies are scared off by a game where buying a viable configuration for a unit means buying multiple kits and/or going to third-party bits sellers. In short, GW wants a theme park and not a sandbox.
So why don't Plague Marines (a fairly new kit) come with all their weapon options then? They've mostly got one of each option but can take two.
You can get 2 same weapons by buying 2 same kits and building them as it is. No kitbashing. Apple and orange. And as to why? Same as with everything with GW. Greed. They aren't your friends. They are there to get your money without care about how customer friendly it is or what's good for the game or what's balanced.
bananathug wrote: I bought my damned forgeworld dread auto cannon arms at the beginning of 8th based on the index. To have them removed as a valid armament within the same edition is just not fair and would leave me feeling bitter (thank god I'm not on the other side of the pond with the crazy ETC and their forgeworld hang-ups).
the dread autocannon is in the sm index. i have the same fw arm on 2 of my 10 dread sm army that is in the making and i wont remove them. (heck, im even using the chaplain dread that FW now has removed cuz without it my sm army has no hq.)
luckily i wont be doing turneys, and if the dude across the table has issues with me using index equipment or stuff no longer sold, then i will find some1 else to play against.
darkswordminiatures.com
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Collects: Wild West Exodus, SW Armada/Legion. Adeptus Titanicus, Dust1947.
2018/11/02 09:35:17
Subject: Re:When do we think Indexes are going away?
Excommunicatus wrote: Today I learned that Panasonic have to give me a VCR player and Sony owe me a MiniDisc.
If you learnt that from this thread, you misunderstood the discussion.
The issue isn't that some things only have a limited lifespan. The issue is with things that are still perfectly functional being rendered obsolete at the whim of the company that made them. It's the difference between your VCR no longer working because it's worn out from use, and your VCR no longer working because Panasonic chose to deactivate it.
There is no good reason for GW to remove options, other than to force people to buy new options.
I would like if they provided data sheets for those obscure options people actualky use (chaos bikers), while tossing out options that no one uses (chaos lords on mounts).
Then provide guidence on using those obscure models as something else, i.e. khorne lords on juggernauts count as bloodcrushers.
