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Greetings all, long time since I've been here but I've gotten back into it. Anyway, let's get right into the news!

It's a doubles tourney, but the pairings are random each round, otherwise it pretty closely adheres to the standard event rules (2 detachments, 2 max of any datasheet (except troops), no forgeworld etc.)

Here's my list, very low on Psychic (obviously) but gives 8 command points.

Battalion Detatchment (+5CP), World Eater’s Legion, All units have MoK

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour
- Chainfist
- Lightning Claw

Troops
12 Chaos Cultists
- 12 Brutal Close combat weapons

8 Khorne Berserkers
- 7 Chainaxes
- Icon of Wrath
- Champion w LC

8 Khorne Berserkers
- 7 Chainaxes
- Icon of Wrath
- Champion w LC

Elites
5 Chaos Terminators
- Chainfist (either this guy or dual LC for champion)
- Icon of Wrath
- Dual Lightning Claws
- 4 Combi-Bolters
- 3 Power Axes

Chaos Rhino
- Combi Bolter

Chaos Rhino
- Combi Bolter

8 Command Points Total, Lord w Collar or Pendant - 999

What do you guys think, haven't played as much so I'm not too sure of tournament meta anymore, so any help is much appreciated!

I don't hate it, but you'd want to be paired up with someone who does shooting well - very well. Because if you come up against a couple of tank heavy armies, I worry you're going to struggle.

Would you consider swapping the lightning claws out for power fists on the Berzerker champions? Seems to avoid them getting tarpitted by cheap enemy transports like Rhinos.

I understand terminators are not in a good place this edition - I have not used mine (they're still on the frame) but with the easy access to cheap plasma and other high-output re-rolling to hit damage 2 weapons out there, I think they struggle to make their points back. What do you have you could use for heavy support in a pinch?

I'm not sure what the meta of the tourney is, so I might have to nab a bit more then. What sort of armies are tank heavy, played against SM earlier and the LR Redeemer was nuts.

I wish it was a minimum unit size of 3 again, then I think they might've been alright. My army is pretty low on HS since it was mostly Daemonkin prior, I do have bikers how well do they do?

Powerfists on the Str5 base might actually be pretty wack, will drop 2 cultists for 2 Pfists methinks, what do you suggest as an alternative for the terminators if not bikes (Heldrake, Mauler is what I could probably grab)

Cheers for the hand

Edit: Could easily swap the Term Lord for a bike lord or a Juggerlord, and the termies for 2 units of plas bikers, would that work?

I don't recall seeing much in the way of bikers these days either, but I'd wager their mobility would combine well with the plasma for some fast hitting anti-tank. A Maulerfiend would be an excellent Distraction Carnifex to draw fire away from your troops units and into The Big Scary Thing.

Regarding armies being tank heavy, I'd be concerned about going up against Guard or Knights especially, but even Marine armies with a lot of Assault Cannon Razorbacks will give you trouble unless you can get in their face.

If you played Daemonkin, would you consider adding a Patrol detachment in with Bloodletters to drop in similar to how you wanted to use the terminators?

Still, have my bikes left over from 7ths Bike+Hounds formations, Could easily equip them with plas (if running with the bike-lord) to overcharge to Melta-powerlevel and would get 2 bike squads instead of 5 terminators. I'm not to keen on the 4th hit and worse from losing wounds on the mauler tho, isn't it quite drastic?

I'm going to guess a lot of Razorbacks will be there, if they're competitive since the players did use them for spamming in 7th.

Not sure how the bloodletters help in a way termis wouldn't, and I'd have to grab a herald as well (which I don't own) if it was effective I probably wouldn't mind tho.

I like the idea of the bikes with plasma over the terminators myself - I was only suggesting the Bloodletters as I figured you wanted to deep strike the terminators in to disrupt gunlines like the termicide squads of 7th edition, and figured Bloodletters to be a far cheaper way of chucking a unit in your opponents midst without risking a failed charge and expensive unit shot off the board. The synergy with the lord helping to re-roll 1's will allow you to overcharge, and the speed of the bikes will assist you in getting to where you need the anti-armour. Plus, if the armour is shooting at bikes coming to harass them then your Rhinos are likely not getting shot at.

I would drop the terminators and take that many more berserkers, probably. Or maybe a daemon patrol with a bunch of bloodletters you can deep strike in.

Nature's Minister wrote:I would drop the terminators and take that many more berserkers, probably. Or maybe a daemon patrol with a bunch of bloodletters you can deep strike in.

I did consider dropping terminators for beserkers but I think it runs into the same problem as before, especially now that I have to run then instead of teleport them in.

What's the big draw to the bloodletters?

Might work with MSU zerks to fit 2 units of 5 in the rhinos.

Raichase wrote: [Snip] The synergy with the lord helping to re-roll 1's will allow you to overcharge, and the speed of the bikes will assist you in getting to where you need the anti-armour. Plus, if the armour is shooting at bikes coming to harass them then your Rhinos are likely not getting shot at.

Yeah though they cant split up if the Lord isn't there to save from plas, and -1 hits on Eldar might solo the unit itself.

Decided on melts, rearranged list again, how does it look?


++HQ++
Kharn
Bike Lord, Power axe, Chainsword

++Troops++
10 cultists, brutal close combat weapons
8 K.Berzerkers, 7 Chainaxes, 8 Chainsmokers, icon, P.Fist
8 K.Berzerkers, 7 Chainaxes, 8 Chainsmokers, icon, P.Fist

++Fast Attack++
3 bikers, 2 melta guns, 3 combi bolters, 3 chainswords
3 bikers, 2 melta guns, 3 combi bolters, 3 chainswords

++Transport++
2 Rhinos, 4 combi bolters

Couple of questions:
1) who's a better warlord
2) AoBF vs Talisman for Bike Lord
3) can bikes be good at CQC with a P.Fist and an icon

Bikes are mediocre melee options. I'd use them for the guns they can get. 2 plasma or melta with the champion matching with combi plasma or combi melta.

I personally like melta, although a lot of the people on these forums regard it as overpriced compared to plasma. I like the D6 damage against vehicles/monsters, provided you can get it within ideal range.

Not sure on the better warlord, likely the Bike Lord given he doesn't need to get in the enemies face to do damage. I mean, I like the idea of the World Eater "Slaughterborn" Warlord Trait, I just dunno how often it would go off to actually be worth taking. Given he's zooming around on a bike, would you consider giving him a combi-weapon to make the most of the 2+ BS? Should combine well with the "Hatred Incarnate" trait - rerolling of 1's to hit AND wound for his attacks would be pretty useful with a combi-plas or melta?

I'd try to keep the bikes out of combat, they'd just end up getting tarpitted - they're better off clearing chaff with combi-bolter fire, I'd only be charging in if you either need to shelter them from shooting (and the enemy can just fall back out of combat anyway) or if you're sure you can kill the enemy before you get a chance to shoot again (so 2 Fight Phases).

Dunno about the best relic, Talisman would be useful to surprise your opponent with an opportunistic charge against a small unit that's isolated. Then again, he's already pretty quick being on the bike, so the AoBF or the Murder Sword become interesting options for melee as well.

Bike's are about the only unit I still actually like Melta on over Plasma.

They are very fast, with a 14 inch move, and a guaranteed 6 inch advance due to "Turbo Boost". Unlike Plasma you can shoot Melta after advancing (albeit at -1 to hit). I typically don't have much trouble getting bikes into that sub 6 inch range to really make those melta guns hurt. That said, I play Slaanesh and not Khorne, so my bikes have access to Warp Time from a psycher... and they have access to Endless Cacophony if I have a bad initial roll or something.

The big problem with Bike's melee profile is they don't have a lot of attacks. I mean you are looking at 2 per model with a Chain Sword (3 for World Eaters on the Charge), and these are expensive models. Also remember that models can split fire. So you can send your 3x melta guns combo'd with Veterans of the Long War at an offending vehicle, then split fire the Combi Bolters into a nearby infantry squad, if one is in range.

anyway, I think Plasma Bikers are widely considered to be better, but still, Bikers are the only unit I haven't been disappointed in the performance of my Melta Guns.

Appeal of bloodletters is they're a cheap troop unit that can charge 3d6, be deepstruck, have tremendous AP, 2 damage on 6s, two attacks on the charge and ws 2 in a group of 20 or more.

If you're playing chaos, why wouldn't you take such a unit?

Nature's Minister wrote:Appeal of bloodletters is they're a cheap troop unit that can charge 3d6, be deepstruck, have tremendous AP, 2 damage on 6s, two attacks on the charge and ws 2 in a group of 20 or more.

If you're playing chaos, why wouldn't you take such a unit?

Can't have them in a World Eaters army without taking a separate detachment (patrol I think) which means I'd need a herald as well. Not sure where they get 3d6 charge from, but the WS 2+ only is if they're in a unit of 20 when they get to combat, which I think might be hard with overwatch & shoot when deep strike strategem.

Though to be fair, in another army I would probably scrap the +1 attack unit wide if I wasn't taking beserker troops.

Raichase wrote:I personally like melta, although a lot of the people on these forums regard it as overpriced compared to plasma. I like the D6 damage against vehicles/monsters, provided you can get it within ideal range.

Not sure on the better warlord, likely the Bike Lord given he doesn't need to get in the enemies face to do damage. I mean, I like the idea of the World Eater "Slaughterborn" Warlord Trait, I just dunno how often it would go off to actually be worth taking. Given he's zooming around on a bike, would you consider giving him a combi-weapon to make the most of the 2+ BS? Should combine well with the "Hatred Incarnate" trait - rerolling of 1's to hit AND wound for his attacks would be pretty useful with a combi-plas or melta?

I'd try to keep the bikes out of combat, they'd just end up getting tarpitted - they're better off clearing chaff with combi-bolter fire, I'd only be charging in if you either need to shelter them from shooting (and the enemy can just fall back out of combat anyway) or if you're sure you can kill the enemy before you get a chance to shoot again (so 2 Fight Phases).

Dunno about the best relic, Talisman would be useful to surprise your opponent with an opportunistic charge against a small unit that's isolated. Then again, he's already pretty quick being on the bike, so the AoBF or the Murder Sword become interesting options for melee as well.

Yeah it seems to function slightly better against multi-wound models in return for weaker against other targets in comparison, I've just heard that Eldar and some other armies stack -1 hits and if that were the case my anti-tank would be left to the P.Fists.

The bike lord does seem a safer bet, Kharn is already a huge target due to his damage & low survivability and hiding in a fragile unit, which traits function better for a bike-lord? Not sure where to get the points for the lords combi-x, though he does already have a combi-bolter on his bike, and if he took it, it'd mean a waste to take the talisman.

Shame the bikes are bad at melee, FC and Pfist made them pretty dandy in the formation last ed.

I gotta say, it's less fluffy but I really like the selecting of traits and relics whent the game starts it gives you that slight bit of tailor/anti-x that you may need.

akaean wrote:Bike's are about the only unit I still actually like Melta on over Plasma.

They are very fast, with a 14 inch move, and a guaranteed 6 inch advance due to "Turbo Boost". Unlike Plasma you can shoot Melta after advancing (albeit at -1 to hit). I typically don't have much trouble getting bikes into that sub 6 inch range to really make those melta guns hurt. That said, I play Slaanesh and not Khorne, so my bikes have access to Warp Time from a psycher... and they have access to Endless Cacophony if I have a bad initial roll or something.

The big problem with Bike's melee profile is they don't have a lot of attacks. I mean you are looking at 2 per model with a Chain Sword (3 for World Eaters on the Charge), and these are expensive models. Also remember that models can split fire. So you can send your 3x melta guns combo'd with Veterans of the Long War at an offending vehicle, then split fire the Combi Bolters into a nearby infantry squad, if one is in range.

anyway, I think Plasma Bikers are widely considered to be better, but still, Bikers are the only unit I haven't been disappointed in the performance of my Melta Guns.

The low shot count has been my only concern, everything else (damage, moving to get into 6", assault) has made me pretty keen on them. Would've definitely grabbed a filthy psyker to help kharn if I wasn't playing WE but that's that I guess.

Yeah the split fire bit has been really handy, shame I couldn't fit in havocs to make use of it.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

The bike lord does seem a safer bet, Kharn is already a huge target due to his damage & low survivability and hiding in a fragile unit, which traits function better for a bike-lord? Not sure where to get the points for the lords combi-x, though he does already have a combi-bolter on his bike, and if he took it, it'd mean a waste to take the talisman.

I'd be leaning towards Unholy Fortitude (6+ FNP/+1W), given he and the bikes are going to be quite a target for enemy shooting, Hatred Incarnate for the re-rolling of 1's to wound (if you manage to get him a combi-weapon, that is) or maybe Exhalted Champion as the +1A would sync well with the Axe of Blind Fury.