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 Rismonite wrote:
Deffdread confusion. Can we use the CCW and the saw in melee or are those of us with three CCWs and a skorcha ripping an arm off? I am sure I am missing something.. right?

Looking at the entry it seems you can get 2 klaws and 2 saws, since you can only replace the shootas with saws if you want those extra attacks. Unless I'm looking at it wrong which is entirely possible.

fe40k wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766233.page

It won’t last past the faq; but enjoy those 2++ Meganobz while you can, Boyz. Wouldn’t try it in casual tables (they’ll just hit you instead of hitting the nobz), but in a tournament, well... RAW is RAW. . .

Nobody in their right mind would allow that. Everyone knows what the devs intended.

The reasoning is that there is a rule that states that a negative roll is really a 1, which satisfies the megaob's 1+ armor, while simultaneously not being a natural 1. AP-5 weapon on them with roll of 4 means 4-5 = -1 which is really a 1 and the meganob is 1+, so it passes.

Total Bacon move.



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geargutz wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Unfortunately you cannot DDD Mek Gunz, they are comprised entirely of gretchin and are ineligible targets.

mekgunz/grots/kilakanz can still use DDD. there is no rule prohibiting it (just the use of clain traits and strategems)

Correct. It is explicitly listed in the mek gun datasheet.

On the subject of deff dreads, is it worth it to sacrifice a saw for the skorcha, or go all out on the melee arms?

 JimOnMars wrote:

fe40k wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766233.page

It won’t last past the faq; but enjoy those 2++ Meganobz while you can, Boyz. Wouldn’t try it in casual tables (they’ll just hit you instead of hitting the nobz), but in a tournament, well... RAW is RAW. . .

Nobody in their right mind would allow that. Everyone knows what the devs intended.

The reasoning is that there is a rule that states that a negative roll is really a 1, which satisfies the megaob's 1+ armor, while simultaneously not being a natural 1. AP-5 weapon on them with roll of 4 means 4-5 = -1 which is really a 1 and the meganob is 1+, so it passes.

Total Bacon move.

I bet you make your opponents roll to hit too. Total JimOnMars move. /s Everyone knows the devs "intended" for Blue Painted Marines to automatically hit.

It's not my fault GW cannot write rules properly.

So, I've seen people say that Choppa/Choppa nobz are pretty decent, but I just don't see it. They might be more "durable" but Boyz still outattack them and with Skarboyz they are hitting as the same Strength.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Brigades got a lot harder since I found out Minimeks can't take gun upgrades for cheap but useful Elites in Deffskull MSU. Will probably switch to 2 Battalions.

For 29 points, a 3 wound mek with kustom mega slugga does d6 damage up close. Not great but you can fill extra trukk slots with them.

Skarboys outhit everything.

Nobs are point for point the same wound per point as boys with a 4+ armor save.

Boys can be in bigger units, and with the green tide buff in a 30 man mob, will outstrike nobs with Choppa and slugga.

For 14 ppm you're getting .71 dead MEQs with a dual Choppa nob.

For 14 ppm you're getting 2 slugga boys with 3 attacks each dealing .65 wounds to MEQ in average. Or .87 with green tide

So for MSU under 20 models, Nobs are clearly superior. For larger mobs, boys deal more damage in CC and are arguably better off due to better leadership and more wounds, but bear in mind a 30 man mob is costing you 210 points to start, versus 148 for a 10 man nob squad with 2 runts. Point for point, nobs are a very good value and are more flexible with transports.

They pair better with battlewagons and trukks, which traditionally hurt boys' green tide and mob rule abilities. Keep in mind, below 20 models, slugga boys do less against MEQ than nobs. It's only when they have over 20 that they do more, and not a world apart like it used to be.

Need an hand with my list, please say if is not ok.
Can you point out weakness ? The idea is of using a lot of cp in the start to deep the G-Naut, cloud the bikes and move again and use the meatshield to protect the big Stormboyz unit.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP ++

+ HQ +
Warboss on Warbike: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
Weirdboy

+ Troops +
Gretchin: 10x Gretchin
Gretchin: 10x Gretchin
Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +
Tankbustas: 2x Bomb Squig
Boss Nob: Rokkit Launcha
9x Tankbusta: 9x Rokkit Launcha

+ Fast Attack +
5x Stormboyz
Boss Nob: Power Klaw
19x Stormboy
Stormboyz
Boss Nob: Choppa
4x Stormboy
Warbikers
Boss Nob: Power Klaw
11x Warbiker

+ Heavy Support +
Gorkanaut

+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk: Big Shoota, Wreckin' Ball

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP ++

+ HQ +
Big Mek: Choppa, Shokk Attack Gun
Weirdboy

+ Troops +
Gretchin: 10x Gretchin
Gretchin: 10x Gretchin
Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

+ Heavy Support +
Mek Gunz
Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon
Gun: Traktor Kannon
Gun: Smasha Gun
Gun: Smasha Gun

 JimOnMars wrote:
But take 30 naked skarboyz...6 die to overwatch.

That leaves 24, with 4 attacks each, is 192 attacks. Against a knight it's still 42 wounds. All with just 1 naked unit of scarboyz.

ETA: 50 wounds. Forgot the exploding 6s!

Problem is getting those 30 boyz there. 30 is dirt easy to kill. Being goff rather than evil sun you can\t even rely on deep strike+assault combo. So how you plan to get 30 intact to charge against knights? You need to plan bit more than just look at "all those attacks". If only some of your boyz have S5 then obviously all those will be targeted first. And knight player doesn't even need more than 1 turn to shoot out 1 unit without trouble.


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 Solosam47 wrote:
Picked up my codex today, looking through it, it for sure has its ups and downs. I want too happy with the loss of big Meks with kff (I don’t want to run him as a normal mek, maybe convert a Sag) but anyhow I am happy with kultures and stratagems. A big thing on my mind right now though is Walkers. From the killa kan to the stompa, anyone cook up some ideas for them? How are you feeling stompas may fair now that the codex is out?

Also a random thought is I feel storm boys and zag got a nice improvement with the deep strike. I haven’t compared point but if they are roughly the same my zag will be coming back out in force!

I’m excited to see some list building aswell!

Stompa is alas still complete junk. Okay guns got slight improvement but no clan culture to help, no real strategem to help and survivability didn't get real boost(d3 wounds regenerate...Gee! Averages 1/20 of it's wounds and that's if it survives. 2 out of 3 outings it's been 1 shotted, 1 time it went to 4 wounds and next turn got like dozen wounds to it so d3 regeneration wouldn't have helped anyway). It's worth maybe 500 points at a stretch yet costs over 900...

Just don't use stompa unless you want to lose up automatically.

Killa kans are also bad but good news is dreadnoughts and gorkanauts became useful when evil suns and deep striked. Trying to footslog is still as useless as before though. So don't take and try to foot slog. And you need that evil sun trait to have reliable charge.

If you deepstrike a couple skarboy squads, one is bound to make a charge. You're looking at a bit above 50% chances iirc. Like 52 or 55.

Footslogging is also possible but you do need a plan. Maybe a wagon.

Numbers indeed look good. But in practice getting a unit of boyz there ain't easy.

I'd probably rely on the characters more. A relic klaw warboss has good chances of downing a knight if he gets a painboy biff and than dies fighting twice. Ghaz is still a beast. Bsdmoon tankbustas are killy, though fragile. Manz are also good at killing knights. Maybe a couple squads of deepstriking deffdreads.

As for regular boyz, they can deal some wounds to a knight. But i'd not expect more than 4 or 5 from a full unit. Between overwatch and positioning problems on real tables there are a lot of attacks getting wasted.

Pandabeer wrote:
S
Stompa for 450 points would be ridiculous, it's significantly more powerful than a Knight Errant (most direct comparison). The 900+ points it costs now is too much for sure though, I think a fair price tag would be around the 650-700 points including wargear mark. Still, I wonder if a properly supported Stompa (Big Mek w/ KFF + Fixer Upperz, maybe on a bike?) can't be made worth it's current pricetag.

Is it? Knights are pretty much same survivability(knights have better degration table though so while comparable survivability knights are more efficient when damaged...) and about equal in h2h. Oh and knights generally shoot better...So let's see. Not tougher, not killier in h2h, loses gun fight. What's so good about stompa?

 Javadog wrote:
On the subject of deff dreads, is it worth it to sacrifice a saw for the skorcha, or go all out on the melee arms?

have three here, one is all melee, have to check but was built as four claw (I think ones a saw in practice), annoying as now needs to proxy one arm (or maybe two) as saws since it appears you can only have two claws.

the other two have a pair of claws and a pair of skorcha (gets around the pants BS of orks), idea is to be able to do something outside combat, or say against scouts lurking in ruins and similar. Think the flexibility is worth while for the cost of two attacks on two of the models.

Three melee and one skorcha I thought about but 1d6 is a bit poor, 2d6 seemed more reliable

As for stompa, haven't tried it yet but it does still look too fragile for pts. It is like 3 times killier than it used to be though. I'd probably say from it's stats and pure antiknight experience thst a stompa is like 150-200 pt overpriced for competitive gaming. But it is good for more relaxed games.

Shinzra wrote:
People saying Orks will be low tier baffles me, every review available including front line gaming talks regarding the codex are all saying it will be a high/top tier book and overall the book is outstanding as a complete book.

Many just like to complain for the sake of it, you have a brand new dex, with some of the best internal balance shown in a codex, options galore, you can run any form of list and still do well.

Playtest the book first and get some games under your belts before going doom and gloom

Ah yes the team with "Stompas are awesome" or "Grethin are orks' best unit" or lol lol "Necrons are powerful". Yeah those have sooooooo high credibility. Oh and they are store...IT's their vested interest to make them look strong and have people buy from them. BUY THEM BUY THEM BUY THEM. Sorry but don't trust sales people to actually give honest statements.

Sure is convincing when Imperium soup player says that stuff. But sure go ahead and dominate tournaments and show they are correct then.

 Emicrania wrote:
Need an hand with my list, please say if is not ok.
Can you point out weakness ? The idea is of using a lot of cp in the start to deep the G-Naut, cloud the bikes and move again and use the meatshield to protect the big Stormboyz unit.

evil sunz for everything would be good for those turn 2 charges, but if you can then try to get the tankbustas deathskulls for better shooting and can hold objectives.
speeking of tankbustas i diddnt see a transport, so im guessing your telyporting them?
stomrboyz get a nerf/buff. a little more expensive but now can deepstrike (though they no longer can charge after advance). evil sunz for turn 2 charges would be best.
make sure you have enough cp to get ramming speed for your gork when it comes on table turn 2.

orks now can do fairly reliable turn 2 charges now. turn 1 charges are pipedreams, but as long any of our stuff is in reserves you dont have to worry about that stuff getting shot off the board (though make sure that what you have on the board is sturdy enough to suffer one round of shooting).
also, be carefull about how much you put in reserves. you need half your PL on the board as well as half you amount of units on the board. if your having issues with this then consider a weirdboy for "dajump" to move any infantry unit (dajump is not deploying in reserves so it doesnt count for it).

You can get a Kultur with your Stompa, if you include it in a Supreme Command Detachment. Only detachment that don't get a Kultur is Super Heavy.

On the topic of the Stompa: it just doesn't have the survivability for its point cost. 3+ with no Invuln and no FnP just means it's gonna get nailed with your opponent's anti-tank and taken out in Turn 1. If it was cheaper, at least it'd be a good draw from your other troops. But you're throwing too many pts into the thing for it to get wiped in 1 shooting phase.

 koooaei wrote:
As for stompa, haven't tried it yet but it does still look too fragile for pts. It is like 3 times killier than it used to be though. I'd probably say from it's stats and pure antiknight experience thst a stompa is like 150-200 pt overpriced for competitive gaming. But it is good for more relaxed games.

Thing is lack of killyness was never issue. Problem is it's >900 model that gets 1 shotted without too much of a trouble. It's not even tough! It's pretty much as tough as knight except at least knights don't degrade as badly. All that killyness means nothing when armies are made with idea "can you 1 shot knight? If not you suck" and if somebody can 1 shot knight they will 1 shot a stompa as well...

The speed on Skarboys is going to require a delivery mechanism.

Transports neuter the awe inspiring numbers. Footslogging is asking for it unless you have kffs or something.

So when I'm talking about footslogging, I really mean evil sunz.

If I were doing anything else, I would either be using tellyporting, jump, or deff skulls and nobs in transports.

 flandarz wrote:
You can get a Kultur with your Stompa, if you include it in a Supreme Command Detachment. Only detachment that don't get a Kultur is Super Heavy.

On the topic of the Stompa: it just doesn't have the survivability for its point cost. 3+ with no Invuln and no FnP just means it's gonna get nailed with your opponent's anti-tank and taken out in Turn 1. If it was cheaper, at least it'd be a good draw from your other troops. But you're throwing too many pts into the thing for it to get wiped in 1 shooting phase.

Ah but then you also need to find out points for at least 9 HQ's...That's a lot of HQ's to pay for after paying 900+ for stompa.

Oh, yeah. Definitely. Just saying it's possible.

tneva82 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
People saying Orks will be low tier baffles me

Ah yes the team with "Stompas are awesome" or "Grethin are orks' best unit" or lol lol "Necrons are powerful".

i already reported him for trying to derail the thread. lets not get carried away with trying to respond to him.

as far as defdreds go i realy like the 4 claws/saws and is important for good melee, but i would only pay for those if you tellyport the dredd. infact i would never footslog a dredd again as long as it has access to the tellyport.

ive traditionally run dredmobs and telyport is great for me. and while killakans didnt get access to it ive found a good replacement are meganobz.

So someone mentioned a warlord trait that allows you to add 3 to a waaagh move if you already have Waaagh.

Can someone confirm that and provide their thoughts?

I personally know that I will be using this trait for at least one game to see how it impacts the speed of a unit. I keep thinking about this alongside the evil sunz trait.

 TedNugent wrote:
So someone mentioned a warlord trait that allows you to add 3 to a waaagh move if you already have Waaagh.

Can someone confirm that and provide their thoughts?

I personally know that I will be using this trait for at least one game to see how it impacts the speed of a unit. I keep thinking about this alongside the evil sunz trait.

i think they might be thinking of one of the general warlord traits "follow me ladz"
but it give your warlord waaagh and breakin heads ability, if they already have them then the waagh and breakin heads ability's range is increased by 3inches (so not a buff to speed but the range of your buff).

geargutz wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Need an hand with my list, please say if is not ok.
Can you point out weakness ? The idea is of using a lot of cp in the start to deep the G-Naut, cloud the bikes and move again and use the meatshield to protect the big Stormboyz unit.

evil sunz for everything would be good for those turn 2 charges, but if you can then try to get the tankbustas deathskulls for better shooting and can hold objectives.
speeking of tankbustas i diddnt see a transport, so im guessing your telyporting them?
stomrboyz get a nerf/buff. a little more expensive but now can deepstrike (though they no longer can charge after advance). evil sunz for turn 2 charges would be best.
make sure you have enough cp to get ramming speed for your gork when it comes on table turn 2.

orks now can do fairly reliable turn 2 charges now. turn 1 charges are pipedreams, but as long any of our stuff is in reserves you dont have to worry about that stuff getting shot off the board (though make sure that what you have on the board is sturdy enough to suffer one round of shooting).
also, be carefull about how much you put in reserves. you need half your PL on the board as well as half you amount of units on the board. if your having issues with this then consider a weirdboy for "dajump" to move any infantry unit (dajump is not deploying in reserves so it doesnt count for it).

Thanks for the input, I think evil sunz is the way to go, Tänkabusta will be in the Trukk, can't the G-NAUT charge with the 3d6 stratagem and tellyporta?

 TedNugent wrote:
So someone mentioned a warlord trait that allows you to add 3 to a waaagh move if you already have Waaagh.

Can someone confirm that and provide their thoughts?

I personally know that I will be using this trait for at least one game to see how it impacts the speed of a unit. I keep thinking about this alongside the evil sunz trait.

Follow Me, Ladz gives your warlord Waaagh! and Breakin' Heads, if they already have them then the range of each is increased by 3". Confirmed.

 Emicrania wrote:

Thanks for the input, I think evil sunz is the way to go, Tänkabusta will be in the Trukk, can't the G-NAUT charge with the 3d6 stratagem and tellyporta?

didnt notice the truck.
the gork can tellyport and ramming speed, you just need the cp to pay for both those strategies. its a very good combo.

tneva82 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
S
Stompa for 450 points would be ridiculous, it's significantly more powerful than a Knight Errant (most direct comparison). The 900+ points it costs now is too much for sure though, I think a fair price tag would be around the 650-700 points including wargear mark. Still, I wonder if a properly supported Stompa (Big Mek w/ KFF + Fixer Upperz, maybe on a bike?) can't be made worth it's current pricetag.

Is it? Knights are pretty much same survivability(knights have better degration table though so while comparable survivability knights are more efficient when damaged...) and about equal in h2h. Oh and knights generally shoot better...So let's see. Not tougher, not killier in h2h, loses gun fight. What's so good about stompa?

So, let's see then. I'm going to compare it to a Knight Errant because that's probably the closest comparison given the loadout of both:

Shooting: Errant has D6 Thermal Cannon + probably the 3-shot Stormspear Rocket Pod. Gonna leave the minor stuff like stubbers out. Stompa has 3D6 Deffkannon, probably a 6D6 Supa-Gatler and a D6 Suparokkit (or whatever it's called). Even with BS5+ that means a Stompa outshoots a Knight Errant. The comparison gets even more in favour of the Stompa when you realize the Stompa's BS doesn't degrade at all. Both have stratagems to increase their shooting output (although Knights are house-specific I thought). Stompa wins.

Melee: Stompa has A6 S20 AP-5 D6, Errant has A4 S12 AP-3 D6 or A4 S16 AP-4 D6 at the cost of -1 to hit. Stompa degrades much worse as it loses wounds though (it loses both A and WS, Knight only loses WS), so melee is about equal I'd say.

Survivability: Tough one to call given the load of variables that can potentially be at work here. Only thing that can be said is that the Stompa is significantly more resilient than the Knight against small arms fire by the simple virtue of having 16 more wounds unless the Knight has the Armor of the Sainted Ion which gives it 2+ armor. Anti-tank entirely depends on whether the Knight has the Ion Bulwark Warlord Trait and how many CP one is willing and able to spend on Rotate Ion Shields. I'd say that with the Ion Bulwark trait the Knight will be stronger against anti-tank. Without Stompa is slightly more resilient I think. Although the Stompa can also be supported by a KFF (costs points instead of CP) for 5++. All in all I can't point out a definitive winner here, although I think overall balance slightly favours the Stompa unless the Knight has a very specific build. Better against small arms fire, about equal AT but AT resilience heavily depends on builds on both sides.

All in all I think a Stompa is clearly more powerful than a Questoris class Knight, so I think a 650-700 point price tag is justified. I'm getting the feeling that maybe the Stompa might have been priced to be used in conjunction with the Tellyporta stratagem, that the developers later thought "Deepstriking a Stompa is too much", limited Tellyport to 20 PL but then forgot to shave off 200 points of the Stompa pricetag. That or GW just thinks "Well, we sell the model so it has to be in the codex but we think Stompa's don't belong in non-Apoc games so we're giving it a way too high pricetag".

 Javadog wrote:
On the subject of deff dreads, is it worth it to sacrifice a saw for the skorcha, or go all out on the melee arms?

Just go all melee arms. Tellyport a mob of 3 Evil Sunz dreads and have fun.

geargutz wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
So someone mentioned a warlord trait that allows you to add 3 to a waaagh move if you already have Waaagh.

Can someone confirm that and provide their thoughts?

I personally know that I will be using this trait for at least one game to see how it impacts the speed of a unit. I keep thinking about this alongside the evil sunz trait.

i think they might be thinking of one of the general warlord traits "follow me ladz"
but it give your warlord waaagh and breakin heads ability, if they already have them then the waagh and breakin heads ability's range is increased by 3inches (so not a buff to speed but the range of your buff).

That's definitely less exciting.

Should my Boomdakka Snazzwagon be Bad Moonz or Blood Axes :/

Army is going to be Planes Buggies Trukkbustas and like one squad of Bikes.

I'm thinking Bad Moon tankbustas and maybe make some of the quality dakka buggies and planes Deffskullz

Is it possible to make a list such that Bad Moon Tankbustas deploy inside Blood Axe or Deffskull Trukkz?

I just noticed in the warlord traits section that the clan specific warlord trait for Goffs is objectively worse than the standard Might is Right trait. One gives +1 attack and +1 strength while the other just gives +1 attack. Kinda a shame that Goffs don't get something cooler to work with.

Pandabeer wrote:

All in all I think a Stompa is clearly more powerful than a Questoris class Knight, so I think a 650-700 point price tag is justified. I'm getting the feeling that maybe the Stompa might have been priced to be used in conjunction with the Tellyporta stratagem, that the developers later thought "Deepstriking a Stompa is too much", limited Tellyport to 20 PL but then forgot to shave off 200 points of the Stompa pricetag. That or GW just thinks "Well, we sell the model so it has to be in the codex but we think Stompa's don't belong in non-Apoc games so we're giving it a way too high pricetag".

yeah, i look at the stompa and think...
"if i want something good for melee then ill just bring a gorkanaut or 2"
"if i want something thats good for ranges i would bring new buggies or mekguns"

the stompa looks like it has better shooting then melee, but its shooting isnt that impressive, and in a meta full of knights then thats whats its going to be compared to. run it for fun apokalypse games, dont expect it to pull its weight in competitve of even some casual games.
i just look at the thing and decide id rather run a telyport and rammingspeed gorkanaut with a good battery of mekguns for ranged support.

for it to be considered for competitive it has to overcorrect it down 1st to half its price. if it turns out its too good at that price then make it a little more expensive. (though i suspect it wont be.)