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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.

Play groups can choose to make up and enforce whatever rules they want. Gw has stated that for match play you can use wargear options for a entry if a discrepancy exists between the index and codex via the chart.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.

 Billagio wrote:

Yeah I was thinking that, just dont really have much experience scratch building so im not sure how to go about it. Plasticard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....

Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?


Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?

I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....

Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?


Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?

I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.

I think that might be too big tbh, but good idea. Let me know if it works for you!

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.

Play groups can choose to make up and enforce whatever rules they want. Gw has stated that for match play you can use wargear options for a entry if a discrepancy exists between the index and codex via the chart.

Thing is if people somebody with plays say "no" to index rules then what GW says is pretty irrelevant. Either you don't take index options or you won't have game. So having GW doing the right thing from the get-go and have stuff not dropped from codex in the first place would have been preferable.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.

I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.

I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.

Thing is index is NOT an option for everybody. Just because you can take from index doesn't mean he can.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".

The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.

Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?

Not being able to benefit means they can have it and allow the rest of the detachment use the kulture.

Not having it at all means that you run afoul of the following

If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN>
units in ORK Detachments (excluding those
in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain
a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that
Detachment is from the same clan.

if grots dont have a clan, then they block the rest of the detachment from using traits. If they do have a clan, but cant use it, the rest of your army is safe

 Billagio wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....

Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?


Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?

I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.

I think that might be too big tbh, but good idea. Let me know if it works for you!

I was thinking of using a toilet paper roll too. I think there are thinner ones.
The problem though is that it might be a bit flimsy, so I would reinforce it with plastic or something.
Or just find some sort of plastic tube, like a pipe or something. Maybe a rolling pin?

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.

Play groups can choose to make up and enforce whatever rules they want. Gw has stated that for match play you can use wargear options for a entry if a discrepancy exists between the index and codex via the chart.

Thing is if people somebody with plays say "no" to index rules then what GW says is pretty irrelevant. Either you don't take index options or you won't have game. So having GW doing the right thing from the get-go and have stuff not dropped from codex in the first place would have been preferable.

I wouldnt play a game with some one like this. There is no realistic reason to impose a limit on another regarding indexes. The “I don’t need to use my index so no one else can use thier index” is absurd. That’s like going to an FNM and tell people that you don’t play against blue decks. There is no inherent advantage present in the units of the index.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.

And we're supposed to tolerate you lying to us that index options are valid when major events don't allow them?

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there

We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.

I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.

I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.

Thing is index is NOT an option for everybody. Just because you can take from index doesn't mean he can.

From what he’s said the only thing limiting him from acknowledging the index is that he doesn’t want GW to potentially invalidate the index a year down the road. According to GW, the people who make this game, they have stated you can use the indexes options in situations such as these. Any and all problems that I am hearing are due to play groups or are being self imposed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....

Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?


Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?

I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.

I think that might be too big tbh, but good idea. Let me know if it works for you!

I was thinking of using a toilet paper roll too. I think there are thinner ones.
The problem though is that it might be a bit flimsy, so I would reinforce it with plastic or something.
Or just find some sort of plastic tube, like a pipe or something. Maybe a rolling pin?

Okay this actually got me thinking, even though I'm not really experienced at kitbashing. What if we use plasticcard/stiff carton to form a dozer blade? Easier to make the right size and were I play at least no one will mind me using that as a rolla. Other options might be similar loose interpretations like say using farming vehicle bits from toys if you have them lying around or forming a ram like shape in front of the wagon, like an old timey locomotive.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

I wouldnt play a game with some one like this. There is no realistic reason to impose a limit on another regarding indexes. The “I don’t need to use my index so no one else can use thier index” is absurd. That’s like going to an FNM and tell people that you don’t play against blue decks. There is no inherent advantage present in the units of the index.

Sure. That's your right. Does mean that in many places that leaves you thin with opponents. Yelling "GW SAYS YOU CAN USE INDEX!" is irrelevant if all the playgroups and tournaments nearby say "no you don't" at which point you trying to use it would amount to flat out cheating.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

I wouldnt play a game with some one like this. There is no realistic reason to impose a limit on another regarding indexes. The “I don’t need to use my index so no one else can use thier index” is absurd. That’s like going to an FNM and tell people that you don’t play against blue decks. There is no inherent advantage present in the units of the index.

Sure. That's your right. Does mean that in many places that leaves you thin with opponents. Yelling "GW SAYS YOU CAN USE INDEX!" is irrelevant if all the playgroups and tournaments nearby say "no you don't" at which point you trying to use it would amount to flat out cheating.

And it’s the tournaments organizers right to establish and run any rules then want. If you wanna complain about the difference in what GW says and what play groups say don’t do it here. I don’t care for the most part what your play groups says you can’t do because it’s gonna vary for everyone and what play group they choose to play in. All I can do is give advise on what is legal and allowed by the original source,GW.

 davou wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".

The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.

Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?

Not being able to benefit means they can have it and allow the rest of the detachment use the kulture.

Not having it at all means that you run afoul of the following

The issue is in the word "benefit". It makes it sound like they have the kultur (due to being a <clan> unit in a battleforged Ork detachment), but don't get the benefit of the special rules.
Which would suggest they could activate the Freebooterz +1 to hit (due to being a friendly unit with this kultur) but not "benefit" from the +1 themselves.
I suspect however this isn't what they meant.

 davou wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".

The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.

Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?

Not being able to benefit means they can have it and allow the rest of the detachment use the kulture.

Not having it at all means that you run afoul of the following

If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN>
units in ORK Detachments (excluding those
in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain
a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that
Detachment is from the same clan.

if grots dont have a clan, then they block the rest of the detachment from using traits. If they do have a clan, but cant use it, the rest of your army is safe

The whole point of my post was that you people are mixing up kulturs (the special benefits) and klanz (the faction keywords). They are not the same thing.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

And it’s the tournaments organizers right to establish and run any rules then want. If you wanna complain about the difference in what GW says and what play groups say don’t do it here. I don’t care for the most part what your play groups says you can’t do because it’s gonna vary for everyone and what play group they choose to play in. All I can do is give advise on what is legal and allowed by the original source,GW.

Ultimately what GW says is irrelevant. What matters is what the people you play with. There's no universal 40k that's being played(indeed every group plays different 40k anyway). So repeating "but index" is misleading. Only way options would be universally usable would be for them to be in codex. The moment GW left them from codex was the moment those became illegal for whole lot of players.

If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN>
units in ORK Detachments (excluding those
in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain
a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that
Detachment is from the same clan.

So, by taking a Bad Moonz Supreme Command Detachment of 3 Weirdboyz (or whatever), and a Stompa...

And then make the Stompa the Warlord with the 4++ Warlord Trait...

and have a couple of Evil Sunz Meks ride along , one with Da Fixxer Upperz to regenerate 3 wounds per turn and the other to have the Redder Armor so the Stompa has the Mortal Wounds aura...

Do you think that would that be enough to elevate the Stompa into usefulness?

Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

And it’s the tournaments organizers right to establish and run any rules then want. If you wanna complain about the difference in what GW says and what play groups say don’t do it here. I don’t care for the most part what your play groups says you can’t do because it’s gonna vary for everyone and what play group they choose to play in. All I can do is give advise on what is legal and allowed by the original source,GW.

Ultimately what GW says is irrelevant. What matters is what the people you play with. There's no universal 40k that's being played(indeed every group plays different 40k anyway). So repeating "but index" is misleading. Only way options would be universally usable would be for them to be in codex. The moment GW left them from codex was the moment those became illegal for whole lot of players.

I can say "but the index" all I want because it was reinforced by an official source. Whether or not your play group wants to play by those rules or not is irrelevant. Yoru play group can include warmachine models and rules and I still wouldn't care. If saying that "you can use the index because GW said so" is missleading then saying you cant because a playgroup wont allow it is even more so.

We know that GW makes mistakes and the fact taht they came out with the chart regarding codex/index means that potentially there was some design in it. Maybe the codex was written with the index in mind. The fact that players think that the indexs are no longer legal is by thier own opinion, when it has been stated that GW that the index should be acknowledged when a discrepancy appears.
Again I dont care about what rules other people want to play by if im not the one thats gonna be playing with them. Its been stated by the developer of the game, that this is how it is currently intended. The stores I play at will allow the index options if they dont exist in the codex for thier tournaments.

If people want to further discuss the mertis or viablility of a unit or selection please preface the post with " My play group does not allow index" or "these are the limitations imposed by MY playgroup".

tneva82 wrote:
Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)

Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.

 Frowbakk wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)

Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.

Any model CAN be warlord. But only character gains the trait. But if you want to have slay the warlord trait on "shoot me" target painted stompa you can do it. Or if you have some other reason(like the apoc game I played where you could deploy only 1/3 of army(100PL) and had to have warlord there. I figured to try with stompa as initial figuring that maybe opponents having 33PL vs my 50 or so would give stompa SOME protection. Bad idea. Should have been gorkanaut+big mek w/kff! Stompa was mercilessly one shotted off the field :lol:

 Frowbakk wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)

Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.

Think imperial knights are the only ones to get around this?

It USED to have to be a character/HQ, now anything can, but being Warlord if you arent a character does literally nothing other than satisfy the "You must have a warlord" quota.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Frowbakk wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)

Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.

Think imperial knights are the only ones to get around this?

Pretty much yes. Dark eldars have ability to spread warlord traits around but even those have to be chacters. And technically even knights don't get around this. Their trait just makes that model character thus giving for example heroic intervene. Don't park your unit within 3" if you don't want knight heroic intervening into you n your turn!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
It USED to have to be a character/HQ, now anything can, but being Warlord if you arent a character does literally nothing other than satisfy the "You must have a warlord" quota.

Tyranids also have at least tried to exploit that with some mycolid spore which doesn't count for killing and thus arqument is no "slay the warlord". Wonder if that has changed? Been a while since I have seen that one mentioned.

Ive always loved the Alpha legion WT because of this.

Hi. I haven't gotten the time to read all this thread yet, but just wanted to give my two cents.

Played a 1000pts. game as soon as i got the codex with what i had around. Some comments:

-Used a 12 loota mob. Got 36, 36 and 12 shots first 3 turns, with more dakka! strat and DDD did 14 wounds 12 wounds and 8 wounds in 3 rounds of shooting. Used 2 10 gretchin mobs and used Grot shield Strat on the lootas after i got first blood on a Space Wolves cavalry that has that 3++ save. After that he shot with everything on the lootas for 3 turns and i only lost 2 thanks to the grots. Also thinking about it, more dakka basically let lootas move and fire without penalty as they would auto hit on 5"s.

-Warboss is not a beatsnik, unless you use shiny gubbinz. Headwoppas Killchoppa is nasty with the mortal wound ability, but if you don't roll a 6, don't expect to survive a space wolves, etc. return attacks. Gave him kunnin but brutal trait and it was a nice surprise to give my opponent.

-Ran Evil Sunz: warbikers and deffkoptas were super fast. Even the Deff Dread got a chunk of terrain in no time.Bikers had a nice softening round of shooting thanks to DDD.

-Btw, watch out for Space Wolves units with a termi in them. They can try to save all shots with the invulnerable.
gave skorchas to the deff Dread, is nice to auto hit but agaisnt any marine is difficult to wound anything. Oh, and obviously watch out for power fists, ouch!

Really enjoyed using the new codex. Looking for some things i wanna try.
-Grot shield for lootas with a few spanners to heal 2 deff dreads. Would make this bad moons and give the dread Rokkits or maybe even KMB"s.
-Can't wait to get a deff killa wartrike and try to get a big mob of bikers charge on turn one with the new buggies to support.

Any more ideas?
-